Turned Off My Subwoofer ... And My Speakers Sound Great
I’ve had a pair of JA Pulsars (non-Graphene) for a couple of years now, and have been using them with a subwoofer. Today, I noticed that my Pulsars sounded very different. There was an expansion of soundstaging, the bass was more articulate and robust (i.e., it had more weight to it), and the highs really sparkled.
This was somewhat different from the sound to which I had become accustomed, so I looked on the panel and discovered that the sub had been turned off. Apparently, my wife had been dusting around my listening room and had accidentally hit the off switch.
I am kind of befuddled by this because I thought use of the subwoofer was supposed to achieve those sonically pleasing effects. Apparently not in my case. Have any ’Goners had this happen? I’m really happy with the "new" sound sans subwoofer, but continue to wonder why that is. I mean by all objective measures, the sub should improve the sound, not detract from it. I just don’t get it.
If you like your sub turned off you had the wrong sub, I hate subwoofers normally, unless your feeding it the same signal as the mains ,they never blend properly and just muck everything up. A great sub well make your main speakers sound better actually.
@erik_squires Thanks for the links. My very small listening room (i.e., 10x9x8 - a converted bedroom) is treated with a variety of items from GIK. Perhaps the room is too small for a 10" sub, or perhaps the treatments negate the need for one at all. Even if adjustments need to be made on the sub, such as more futzing with the x-over, it seems to be a lot of work for a small return. All I can say is that the Pulsars sound really excellent on their own, and I am seriously considering selling the sub. Sometimes, less is more.
Or sometimes more is more. Your problem was you had a sub. All rooms have problems with bass modes, and the smaller the room the worse the problem. Unfortunately you went for the proven to fail approach of trying to suck up the bass with room treatments. The proven to succeed approach is four subs. Don't need to be big, especially in such a small room, but the small room only makes it more essential that you have more bass sources.
The results you were looking for, they do indeed happen when you get a distributed bass array. Do a search. Study the system. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 Look for comments from Duke and Tim. Everyone with a DBA will tell you its the way to go.
@millercarbon ... trust me, it’s way too tight for a DBA in my room. As I read the comments here and think about what has happened, I’ve concluded that a subwoofer is not necessary in every application where a 2 way speaker is used. That was a mistake on my part.
Plainly, room size and treatment play a significant role in subwoofer effectiveness. Sure, I could run the sub in parallel from a second preamp out, but all that does is duplicate the signal going to the power amp and eliminates the xover altogether. Since the Pulsars go down to about 41 Hz, bass is plentiful for me (generally, no low Hz organ notes in my rock/jazz listening). Thus, running in parallel wouldn’t seem to improve things much.
So, I’m back to square one. I’ll keep listening without the sub for a while and, if this sonic improvement holds up through various genres and recordings, then I’ll likely sell the sub. It’s a very nice JL Audio e110, so I don’t think it should be too hard to move.
In that size room with room gain you might be shocked at how low a competently designed 8” 2 way will go.... For example Vandersteen 1CI rated 38-22.5 k plus or minus 3 have fun, enjoy the music
uberwaltz12,826 posts09-03-2020 4:27pmMiller Serious question. Do you think a room the OP,s size of just 10x9x8 could handle a DBA or even two subs?
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LOL
Yup 4, 4" subs in 6" cubes, sealed box, It would be a Flea Sub..
What ya think?
Maybe we’re on to something, Now Flea towers, with the Flea subs in Mini Houses... Gears are grinding $$$$$$$$$. A Mini Super system. In a mini neighborhood, next to a (don't laugh) a Mini-Mart
I also use a very small listening room. In my room, with two REL T5i’s the soundfield and extension is slightly better than with my speakers by themselves. The key I think, is to make sure you are not impacting the mains.. if the mains sound better without the sub, this is a sign that the sub is probably running too high in the mix, IME.
FWIW, Jeff Joseph (who personally set up the Pulsars in my room) told me he thinks that because of the small room size, the subwoofer likely overloaded the room with bass. He thinks also that integrating a sub in such a small space is quite challenging. I tend to agree. In any event, this entire process, caused accidentally, has been quite a revelation. I guess everything happens for a reason.
Careful @rlb61 you're going to disrupt MC's one-size fits all narrative. He really doesn't need to post here....he simply needs to have a FAQ page with his list of audio rules (including non-negotiable brand requirements) that everyone is required to follow.
@millercarbon ... trust me, it’s way too tight for a DBA in my room. As I read the comments here and think about what has happened, I’ve concluded that a subwoofer is not necessary in every application where a 2 way speaker is used. That was a mistake on my part.
If you like your sub turned off you had the wrong sub,
Not necessarily true. It is most likely out of phase or you have room nodes . The only room Correction that I have found that gets this Exactly right is Is "RoomPerfect" by Steinway Lyngdorf . It is glorious. I have tried ARC, Audyssey, YPAO and MCACC. None come close to Lyngdorf. It is head and shoulders above the rest.
@tomic601 I've heard both versions of the Pulsars in different rooms with different systems. I'm convinced that the Graphene 2 provides an incremental upgrade over the non-Graphene model. On a percentage basis, I'd say it's about a 3% improvement, in which case the law of diminishing returns applies for me.
I have my Maggie's. 7's four feet from wall eight feet apart and eleven feet from listening position and intergarated with one SVS Ultra 13 Sub and I only have room for one sub. It was a pain to get the synergy, but now I would never get ride of my Sub and lose all the musical impact a Sub can bring
Miller Serious question. Do you think a room the OP,s size of just 10x9x8 could handle a DBA or even two subs?
Yes. Without a doubt. The whole reason for DBA is to smooth out room modes that are created by rooms being smaller than the lowest wave lengths. Totally stands to reason that the smaller the room the worse the modes and the more the benefit of multiple subs.
I think where people get screwed up is thinking that adding subs means more and more and more bass. This is NOT the case! Each sub that is added the volume of ALL the subs is reduced. There are more subs but each sub puts out less volume. All together they add up to the right balance. Only better. Because to get that balance with one or two subs there’s always a hump or two that you have to live with in order to not have a suckout hole or drop-off. But with multiple subs the humps are almost non-existent and there is no dropout. That’s why everyone with a DBA raves about how smooth, fast, articulate and DEEP their DBA goes.
I think where people get screwed up is thinking that adding subs means more and more and more bass. This is NOT the case!
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Yea for the most part that's true. Twice now I've visited guys homes with 4 unit DBAs and ask me to listen. One sounded good, one OK, WHY? They had their mains that were good to 27 on one and 35 on the other. Simply put, one guy, cut his mains through an active EX at 60hz and let the DBA do the rest. It was quite impressive.
The other guy with RM30s which were better monitors BY FAR than the B&Ws. Sounded like crap because he didn't cut the mains at 60 or 80. If he would have, I know the better sounding speaker system would have been there. It was just bloated. Needed to turn it to like 30 as a cutoff, just boomy
He wants me to show him how the other guy did it. He was there, and wouldn't ask..
The guys BI amped , bass into an Active XO, disconnect the factory XO for bass. Set the slopes, EVERYthing including correcting the surly bad bass XO with no correction and a the cut points. It's set up like a band pass. Sounds great too.
The only thing wrong with many subs in most cases is the additional expense and complexity for what you gain. I’d focus on getting one sub set up right for your sweet spot first before even considering more. That alone is hard enough to do in many cases. Then if you need to have properly tuned bass in other spots, arrays of subs to distribute the bass more evenly across the room is a solution. You don’t add more subs to get bass right in one spot. A suitable sub tuned properly is the most you need. With larger full range speakers and/or in smaller room even 1 well selected sub set up well may not add much if anything.
This is all for 2-channel music listening of course. Home theater is a different ballgame.
Having said all that I would not enjoy my relatively small and not particularly bass extended kef ls50s in my 12X12 room nearly as much without the sub. With it, there is not much to want. The ls50s are fabulous speakers for smaller rooms within their limits.
Get a pair of small REL subs and hook them up to your stereo outputs per REL. Place them on diagonal corners. Fantastic SQ. This was recommended to me by Jacob at the REL helpline.
Actually, you don't have a problem. A problem is when you can't fix it, or have to fundamentally disrupt the experience. You very likely do not need new subs, or an array. You haven't even tried reconfiguring it yet, so the suggestions to move to another setup are a shot in the dark, quite out of line for first approaching the situation as described, imo.
"By all objective measures..." which is why the audiophile should not depend solely upon measurements! They are a great guide, but you have to explore, experiment with your system. It seems like you just did an initial setup rather than push through trying all the permutations available to you.
You are experiencing the normal situation when a sub is turned off. You are focusing on the mid-bass through top end, which is less noticeable when a sub is running. I review speakers and have them playing sans sub, then often add a couple subs. BTW, I do agree that if one is after superior results, the attempt should be to have a minimum of 2 subs. Having heard smallish sub arrays, I haven't been terribly impressed by them. I prefer to have two prodigious subs than four smallish ones that can't do the LF. If one had four larger subs, that might be a different story. But, then you might be into consideration of what that money might have gotten you in terms of a superior/upper end pair of speakers. YMMV
Note: When sub is turned off and suddenly everything seems so much better, that's a strong clue that you had the output of the sub way too high. Crank it back until it's barely discernible, then turn it down just a touch more until not individually discernible. Then see what you think of it all.
Switch back and forth between sub/no sub. Enjoy it! Learn how the sub affects the sound, and I concur with others here that if things are THAT good without the sub, you likely had it set up wrong. Redo the sub settings with an oh, so gentle touch on the sub's output, and you likely will love what it does and not lose the benefit of the mains shining through.
The only way I like my sub is at the lowest frequency crossover setting, and the gained turned down so that I rarely even know it’s on. I also much prefer the high level input from the amp vs the line input from the pre.
If you can actually hear your sub or detect where the bass is coming from at it's location then it's either too loud or xover incorrect or likely both. I have two subs. I feel the bass but I stare right at one sub but cannot detect any bass coming out of it in my listening position. I quite often forget there is two as second one I cannot see from my listening position.
@rib61 - TAS reviewed the JL Audio E110 sub that you have and talked about the software available for dialing it in. Something that be worth exploring....
It is my thought that If you have more bass without the sub, you are getting frequencies that are cancelling themselves out. I recommend that you try playing with the phase and position of the sub. If a sub is 180 degrees out of phase with your speakers, the bass will cancel itself. Either that or the actual waves are cancelling out due to placement issues. Like Douglas said 2 is better than 1. Like MC said, 4 is better than 2. It’s not about total output but rather smooth output. With 2 or 4 subs you have less dips.
I’d possibly be interested in the JL. PM if you want to sell it
Subs have an inherent delay which a lot of times causes Phase Canceling . When using room correction software ,the delay that is setup for your Sub , is actually delaying the signal to your speakers to match the inherent delay in the sub. You see a lot of people and places talking about delaying the signal to the sub, but you are actually delaying the signal to the L/R speaker to match the inherent delay in the Sub This software usually sets the subwoofer distance quite a bit farther than it actually is. Leave it that way . This is how it compensates . So if you need to manually set the distance or delay and your are not using room correction software .
I’ve never felt a burning need for a subwoofer, but like anyone I can be swayed by all the talk about how subwoofers substantially improve a sound system, even when you add them to floor standing speakers.
I bought a couple JL Audio e110 too! Also the JL Audio CR1 crossover.I initially did a bunch of experimenting, following the basic rules of adding a sub and, yes, I heard some expanded soundstage/dimensionality etc. But what I couldn’t shake is that adding the sub changed the character to my ear of the entire speaker. The tonality changed from the mids up to the highs. Even as I played with phase and volume level I could never get rid of the problem that the sub would add, but also subtract. And I’d always prefer the tonality and punch of the system without the sub.
What does this say? To me it doesn’t determine that I don’t like the trade-off with subs necessarily. It may certainly be possible to maintain the same sonic character of the speaker and only add low bass. But it DOES tell me that trying to get that balance if FRIGGIN’ HARD...and it’s no wonder you see all the subwoofer-heads talking about taking weeks even months to dial in a sub, and/or employing all sorts of trial and error with DSP to get it just right.
So, could I get it "just right" to please my picky ears?
I hold out hope. But it’s such a hassle that I haven’t bothered to try again in...I dunno...at least a year. I’m trying to get myself to set them up again, and give it a longer more rigorous try, and then decide whether to throw in the towel.
(I’ve been wanting to upgrade my Perspectives to the graphene version, but don’t have the money, so I’ve contemplated selling all my subwoofer stuff to pay for the upgrade. Which is why I want to first give them a real try first).
This is why I have simply gone back to using speakers that are full range. No matter what, mulitple subs, software etc... it's always off just a bit for me.
No substitute for displacement. That said, I realize many are space or spouse challenged. In that case, get the best software correction you can.
The more I listen to and enjoy the Pulsars without the sub, the more I'm inclined to bag the sub and avoid the hassle. At this point, I'd rather worry about the music than the gear.
No substitute for displacement. That said, I realize many are space or spouse challenged. In that case, get the best software correction you can.
That is correct ,and Steinway Lyngdorf's , Room Correction called
"RoomPerfect" is the best in many peoples opinion. I Concur. I have tried and used ARC YPAO MCCAC
Audyssey MultEQ
"Room Perfect" is head and shoulders above the rest. It integrates a Sub better than ANY of the others. It gets The DEEP Bass RIGHT!! No bloat, Way more Bass Articulation and Detail
@rlb61 how did you integrate the JL sub with your system? line level or speaker level? i have a JL E112 and found that by using a Jensen transformer to convert my amp speaker level output to line level that feeds the rca inputs, the most seamless integration was obtained.
Depends on how you set up your sub. When your speakers sound better that tells you that your sub setup was wrong. If your sub impacts the mid-range then your setup is wrong. Either the sub is poorly designed or your settings we're way off.
@dpac966 ... I’ve tried it both ways. It has been run parallel with the mains from a second preamp output, and has been run in a loop with the sub output into the power amp input, thereby allowing use of the sub’s internal xover. In both instances, the sound feels compromised compared to running the mains full range without the sub.
I wonder also whether some speakers are meant to be mated with a sub. I recall hearing the Pulsars at various audio shows, and Jeff never used a sub. In addition, since the Pulsars are rear ported, I’ve been advised by some subwoofer industry big wigs to plug the ports which, of course, changes the essential character of the speakers that prompted me to purchase them in the first place. Oy vey!
@phillyb The sub is very well designed. It's a great piece of equipment in the right setting and, probably, with the right person (not me) setting it up.
My wife is too scared to dust around the system 5000 volts and all. Mostly I just think she is afraid she would hurt something.
I think we need to think in terms of subwoofer system. I have never heard a system where one subwoofer did well especially with multi way dynamic loudspeakers. The advantages are not as great as they are for a one way ESL. Why system? The cross over is just as important as the subwoofers themselves and what comes with most subs is not even second rate. If you are going to do this don't even bother until you are ready to buy at least two subs and an out board crossover that includes a high pass filter for the satellites. To get a subwoofer system right on you need a selection of cross over points and slopes, high pass and low pass need to be independent. Then you have to be able to match the subs to the satellites in phase and time.If this is not done you are likely to get more "punch" with the subs turned off! But matched up correctly and kick drum strikes come through with a reality that you can not get without subwoofers. Subs also work best against walls and in corners. This placement increases their efficiency up to 6 dB and minimizes room interactions. The satellites are usually farther out into the room. To match them up correctly the satellites need to be delayed about 0.3 ms (0.1 ms per foot) The only way to do this is with digital bass management. Digital cross overs also can offer an infinite number of cross over choices with virtually no distortion. Room correction units usually come complete with digital bass management. Once you have this a whole world of subwoofer possibilities opens up. Now you can use a passive subwoofer with an out board amp. There are many subwoofer kits available for much less money and with minimal capability you can even build your own using the best drivers available. Once you have a properly dialed in subwoofer system there is no looking back. Systems without sound anemic. As an example, live rock concerts are held in large venus where bass can be produced very efficiently as there is much less room interaction. Getting bass like that in a small room requires the set up to be right on and a lot of power. My subs are always up 6 dB at 20 Hz dropping to 0 dB at 100 Hz. This gain replicates what you hear in a large venue even with symphony orchestras. It also requires three times the power and if you are using room control up to 6 times the power. The effect brings big smiles when watching concert videos. Even with studio rock albums the added slam is appreciated. Instruments like acoustic bass are not affected because they do not go that low so there is no need to drop the bass for certain types of music. Many if not most people would be better off spending their money on speakers that make better bass rather than subwoofers. In trying to make money on this concept the audio industry is short changing enthusiasts by trying to cheapen the product. IMHO the best approach to take if you want thunderous bass is to wait until you can afford at least two subwoofers and a good digital cross over.
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