Tube or solid state

@spaceguitarist  what is vintage sound?

@spaceguitarist  what is vintage sound?

It's what music sounds like.

@spaceguitarist … Use tube only if you prefer Low Fi and enjoy this vintage sound. :)

While there are a lot of ways to generalize stuff in high end audio. Different people may be drawn to different sound characteristics. But well, that statement is just wrong. Some of the finest gear in high end audio is tubed.

Vintage sound, AK LOW FI is mostly lots of harmonic distorsion, high noise ratio, and spectral non linearity. 

I'm not saying that it's Bad, or that I don't like it : I just that it's not HI Fi anymore since 50 years to be fair.

Both. Tube preamp and SS power amp. 

My Pass XA-25 has a "tube-like" sound in that it's capable of making me like listening to it. Even when it's off it puts out a vibe, as does the tube Had amp as that thing is beautiful to look at. The Pass amp looks like an industrial slab, but it is easier to dust.

Don't forget to include hybrids. Clean background and oomph can come from SS, but adding tubes on the preamp can be the best of both worlds. At least consider.

Go to

and scroll to the bottom. 

Tube monoblocks 

Tube preamp 

@spaceguitarist truly an ignorant post.

Use tube only if you prefer Low Fi and enjoy this vintage sound

The highest classic way by far is a good SS amplifier ,and Vacuum tube preamp .

please note: buying a good preamp with plenty of power supply power 

the biggest mistakes are and ones the biggest inside if you see a round silver volume pot or attenuator -Run , why for its just a $20 volume pot with metal plastic wipers, you want a resistor ladder type, or relay control ,you loose a lot of low level detail with the cheap alps or Bourne type . I know for I owned a Audio store for 10 years . The power supply  too is very important, for dynamic swings and soundstaging. Many times in lesser preamps when the performance gets complex and the spl levels a bit high on less expensive units say on average   $$3k  or less 

the soundstage depth collapses and image starts to get thinner and loses focus .vs a good quality unit.

please keep  this in mind . Spending a minimum of  $5k is a good rule of thumb 

And  make sure you have at least the 2 items  mentioned , balanced input to output  also truly makes a Sonic improvement. 

You may find this article instructive : The return of tube amps!

Of course, as stated above : I'm an ignorant (I'm just an Hifi audio enthusiast since 40 years, professional Jazz musician and teacher since 30 years, endorsed demonstrator for several manufacturers, electronic engineer by my studies, and also administrator of several high fidelity discussion groups, .... but I just discovered that I'm an ignorant compared to some of the experts around here, as it seems).

No one has asked this question before. Cool to break new ground. 

Those who can do, those who can’t teach. 
 Those that can do both coach.

@spaceguitarist I am an MSME and have an MBA but you would not want me as an accountant. So because you play guitar, listen to the stereo and teach makes you impervious to making an ignorant post?

No one said you are ignorant just your ranting about tube amplifiers.

Then again after that last post….

Still, obvious facts are there :) so it's not a matter of what I posted, or what I'm thinking : just obvious facts.

I like whatever sounds best.

Tubes in main system with efficient speakers, and big Class A power and pre in the other two systems, one with conventional speakers and one using electrostats.

Vitus RI-101 MK2 The Best Of Both World’s😃 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qECKj1fXjek

Space is right. 

You can run a good tube preamp into either tube or solid state power amps, so there’s no reason NOT to run a tube preamp if you get a good one. But power amps are a different story. I’ve had more than one friend spend Large Cash on a tube power amp solution that just didn’t work for them. BIG BUX tube amps.

I see the problem as being one of matching the tube amp to the loudspeaker. Some loudspeakers are much easier to drive than others for tube amps. I saw a recent ad of a guy selling off his beloved Marantz 8B power amp which he used to drive Altec 604E loudspeakers. That’s a well-matched choice.

But some loudspeakers are a much more difficult thing to drive and a tube amp may well not be the right choice. Most tube amps have only modest amounts of power, which also limits your choice of loudspeakers. Many who run tube amps use them to drive horn systems, which is a problem right there. Horns are flared pipes and are inherently resonant and colored, especially in the mid-range.

Today a lot of serious audiophiles are getting into multi-amplification with active crossovers, or powered loudspeaker systems like the Dutch & Dutch 8c, or some of the powered KEF systems. Systems like that have already made the amplifier choice for you.

One of my all-time favorite loudspeakers, the big Avalon systems, have extremely complex passive crossovers and don’t play well with most amplifiers. Even with a big, powerful tube amp, they probably wouldn’t do well. They don’t even like many solid state power amps. Their reputation is that they only play well with Rowland Research amps and they ain’t cheap.

Lastly, tube power amps are expensive to buy and expensive to maintain as the output tubes wear out and are costly to replace.

Get a tube preamp you like and make the power amp and speaker choices a different issue.

And of course, your budget has a lot to do with this and you didn't say anything there.   My reservations about tube amps aside, one of the most magically musical systems I ever heard was a pair of late 1970's vintage KEF Calinda loudspeakers being powered by a Marantz 8B amp.

I think it's up to system synergy - some speakers match solids, while other match tubes. Clashing of egos and disappointment happens when people do not understand this, and think you can go on the dance floor in a heavy diver's gear, assuming that because it has binding posts you can hook it up to anything and live happily forever.

Also, it depends what one wants, what sort of representation: a more mechanical or a more humane view, a 3rd person or a first person observer effect.

Plus, there's fine SS and trash SS, and there's fine tubes and trash tube gear.... like the karateka or the MMA fighter will win. (The better prepared fighter will win, regardless the background.)

In addition, tastes change over time. Younger people are usually happy with solid states, and as their habits and listening skills mature they go for tubes. If the listening skills decline (hearing damage - a case for most men over 50) then solids will stay as a more wide-spread option. However, my hard-core audio friends (20+ people) have almost all made the transition to a predominantly tube system during our shared 20-30+ years of audio journey. Maybe that tells something.

"However, my hard-core audio friends (20+ people) have almost all made the transition to a predominantly tube system during our shared 20-30+ years of audio journey. Maybe that tells something."

This is an interesting comment, in that I not only went through it myself doing the gamut of cheap SS, better SS, good SS, hybrid, and ultimately on to good tubes, but my journey also mirrors the majority of serious audio guys who’s journeys I’ve witnessed. When I was younger, you would have had a hard time convincing me that lower powered tube gear in triode mode would sound better to me at some point than my bullet proof 250 watt per channel SS amp! 😉

We all have unique sensitivities that require a music system that can uniquely satisfy our tastes....and tastes do change, There’s no wrong way to do it if you get there, but there is always the chance that you’ll still morph towards a different sound. Some people want their systems to sound like a dance club, others want it to sound like a symphony hall. Neither is wrong, but we all need to pick the sound that best matches our reference, whether it be row 10 center, front row balcony, or the mash pit.

Yes, definitely tastes change over time. I climbed mountains, jumped out of airplanes, and dove below 120’ in the ocean. As I got older I more in tune with more subtle and nuanced sound. Street racing of one’s youth becomes a passion for high performance Farari and Maserati later in life… one learns. I don’t like cars… but Kurt Vonnegut has been replaced by Tolstoy and Henry James for sure. Onkyo replaced by Audio Research.

i like the tubey sound of the rega brio amp. unfortunately the little thing runs at least as hot as real tube equipment. but it sounds sweet. 

Solid state.  Based on my amplification (Yamaha RX-Z9 in Pure Direct vs Melton P/P KT-88s) the highs are so much crisper and articulated through the Great Heils.  Levels are matched to within 0.1 dB.

https://youtu.be/HTxZJBoOywM

https://youtu.be/FDIu2BFbt-Q

https://youtu.be/W66SQS1wDUA

https://youtu.be/ZxhDJ_eOlYw

So much of it all comes down to your budget. I’ve had numbers of tube amps That I’ve loved like the VTL Ichibon’s however, I don’t want that much heat and tubes to maintain. I use an auto bias S 200 amp now and I’m thrilled with the push button ease You’re never gonna get the holographic sound out of solid state that you get out of tubes. A good newer, Pre Amp, like a Conrad Johnson ET5 or something that has one tube is perfect. In my mind. I still have solid state back ups but there’s no need to run those amps unless I have catastrophic failure &  less is more with regard to Tube’s. Something that has for kt120 tubes is plenty but it’s also all about matching as I don’t like EL34 tubes with my Harbeth. It’s too Syrupy, but with horns, it would be great My gear plays rock ‘n’ roll. Perfect but I have a nice Rel sub to tighten that bottom end. Enjoy whatever you do

Been  listening to tubes exclusively since the early 90s.

Tried other tube amps, but kept going back to my EL34 integrated,

Just over a year ago, started listening to SS amps. Kept going back to the EL34 as it just sounded better than anything else I tried.

Built a pure Class A 30 watt power amp, and put a single ended tube pre in front of it. 

Since I finished the power amp, it has been in my system and I have zero desire to put the tube integrated back in. 
 

When I get a fresh set of EL34’s, I’m going to put it back in and have another listen and see how I feel about it.

The musicality of the "tube" sound is a real phenomenon. It has long been known that listeners appreciate the addition of a certain amount of second harmonic distortion, and tube amplifiers produce just that, due to enormous difficulties in maintaining good linearity with acceptable feedback coefficients. 

While this distortion may sound nice, Hifi is supposed to be about precision, and if the sound needs to be altered in this way: it should be limited to a front panel adjustment of the pre-amp or integrated amp, like "Smooth Old Sound: ON/OFF". 

Tubes offer some advantages - their overdrive behavior is smoother than solid state, so even when clipping the sound is less "harsh" (even harmonics). While this is desirable for a guitar amplifier that runs on distortion most of the time, it is of no use in Hifi, where distortion must be completely avoided. 

Tube amps also (usually, but not always) have a much higher output impedance than solid-state amps, which makes some speakers sound better and others noisy, so results are unpredictable. 

In fact there are very few tube amps of any cost that will outperform a very basic modern transistor amp. 

Indeed, the vast majority of transistor amps are so superior in every way to any tube amp, that it is hard to justify the use of tubes in anything other than guitar amplification, where, despite lots of marketing hype: no transistor amp has ever been able to sound exactly the same as a tube amp...we're getting close...but it's not the same.

The appearance of monoblock class A triode tube amplifiers ... is truly amazing. They typically have abysmal 1-5% harmonic distortion at rated rpm, are low power (typically less than 5W continuous), not to mention the wear and tear/planned obsolescence of tube technology. Such an amplifier generates large amounts of second order harmonic distortion and requires a very large output transformer. The distortion inherent in the iron-core transformer is ubiquitous, and only violent feedback can eliminate it. Significant feedback around a transformer is extremely difficult to achieve correctly, as phase irregularities usually cause the amplifier to oscillate.... 

In summary: it may have been the state of the art 50 years ago, but there is no valid reason to use tubes for high fidelity amplification: as long as we know why not praise the virtues of wax cylinders or vinyl... as having a sound superior to the CD, LOOL 😅

Below is the typical form of reproduction of a "square" signal by a very good tube amp, at 100Hz, 1000Hz, and 10KHz, I let you judge the massacre...

 

Recently in a review I saw an amp over $2800, a class A triode thingy advertised 4% THD at 10 watts....which is absolutely appalling for an amp...even low range: most powered PC speakers do better than that!

I have no doubt that many tube amps have a very smooth, not unpleasant sound... it's not Hifi, but I must admit that I do like Lowfi, from time to time. ..

If it sounds closer to the real thing than transistor amps then it doesn't matter what wave you measure.

@invalid 

If it sounds closer to the real thing than transistor amps then it doesn't matter what wave you measure.

+1,

Often the simplest answer provides the most truth and clarity. 
Charles 

Tube preamp,.., SS stereo amp or monoblocks. 
 

havng that little bit of warmth from the preamp, is just,enough.

when I was younger, mid 80’s, my Father sold his old reel to reel, amplifiers, I do remember playing sin after sin, hell awaits, UFO, etc, ther was a relaxing sound through tubes, it just felt, enveloping, it sounded just right,…like baby bears porridge. Our old dogs (rip) would get up and leave the room during cd play, and stay asleep playing,records on stereo.

personally, I’m ecstatic with my solid state gear,  nothing to mess with, no tubes popping, taking. Out a midrange, plus, you can if your home, leave them on 365.

maybe it will change, maybe I will get an AVA, or CJ, preamp in the future, they do have a nice sound. With my music, I’m better with SS . Metal, and usually loud.

Order from a mail order place, that way, if you don’t like SS or tubed pre, ship back.

Happy hunting. 
 

ps, Technics SL-1200G.  Money very thoughtfully, wisely spent.

no belts, won’t break, it’s a 40+ year investment.

i have 3,…2 from mid late 80’s, and one from late 90’s

nothing has ever gone wrong, start, stop, sounds great, the most reliable TT ever built. 

@invalid Wrote:

If it sounds closer to the real thing than transistor amps then it doesn’t matter what wave you measure.

I agree, +2

Mike

personally, I’m ecstatic with my solid state gear,  nothing to mess with, no tubes popping, taking. Out a midrange, plus, you can if your home, leave them on 365.

Terrific!!

Key to long term satisfaction is choosing what sounds best to “you”. Just please yourself. Exactly why such a huge variety of audio products exist in high end audio.

Charles

And in how many cases have people heard "the real thing" just as it was recorded?  You would have had to have been there.

And what of "the real thing" that never was, but instead was assembled in a studio using digital instruments, analog synthesizers, sampling, etc.?

Maybe there is/was no "real thing."

And what of "the real thing" that never was, but instead was assembled in a studio using digital instruments, analog synthesizers, sampling, etc.?

Maybe there is/was no "real thing."

If this mindset/reasoning works for you, stick with it. Many different perspectives and viewpoints. I understood @invalid comment. I listen to live music performances pretty often and have developed an ear for live acoustic instruments. More often than not, tubes come closer to mimicking that type of sound presentation.

But that’s just my experiences. If yours are different, that’s also just fine. We all individually choose what suits us best. For me tubes generally sound more natural/realistic. For you probably not. It’s all good . Be yourself.

Charles

Ok my answer is horrible- it depends 

I have SS system and some experience with tubes. 
 

If money is no object I am buying tube and specifically Audi Research Corporation components. However I am not so I enjoy SS and have been a big fan of Moon by Simaudio. 
 

I’ve own McIntosh tube preamp and it was awesome and used SS amps with it; I heard and ARC integrated amp that blew it away. I rally considered it before I went with Moon. 
 

Consequently my answer is it depends and all the best on your decision in allocating limited resources 

Using a tube preamp with a solid state amp requires impedance matching. Typically, tube preamps have a high output impedance which solid state amps can be all over the place. Having a tube preamp with a high output impedance matched to a low input impedance solid state amp can result in dismal performance.

invalid

822 posts

02-05-2023 at 03:07pm

If it sounds closer to the real thing than transistor amps then it doesn’t matter what wave you measure.

First of all High Fidelity has never been supposed to reproduce reality but to reproduce the recording.

Now, even if it’s hard to believe for someone who never worked professionaly in recording studios, the truth is : at least 50% of what you listen has been created with digital processing in the studio.

But overall the statement of Mr Invalid ...is....as his name suggest  : if the Fidelity (fidelity to recordings) matters : tube technology has to be avoided, since it’s not HiFi by any means for today’s standards.

Solid state also has higher harmonic distortion that can be heard even at lower levels and is not pleasant to the ear, tubes have lower harmonic distortion which is pleasant to the ear and masks the higher order harmonics. I used to think the same thing about tubes as spaceguitarist until I actually used some tube equipment in my system.

@invalid 

I used to think the same thing about tubes as spaceguitarist until I actually used some tube equipment in my system

Perfectly understood and appreciated. As we both recognize, this is a “beaten horse “ debate. In the end each listener settles down with what suits them best. Spaceguitarist does his thing and good for him.  No doubt that you’ll continue to do what has worked out best for you.  I’ll let it go at that.

Charles

solid-state for me. But nothing against tubes.

it's great that we can hear differences between different types of FETs etc. with solid-state amps. 

In fact there are very few tube amps of any cost that will outperform a very basic modern transistor amp.

Nonsense. I wonder if spaceguitarist is pals with kenjit?

The answer to the OP's question must include tubes somewhere in the chain.

@fixto maybe I missed this but what is your budget for both?