I hang out a lot at a shop that only sells tube amps and preamps (not even hybrid integrated amps are sold there) and I have often seen new people come into the store and have what is close to a religious conversion experience—they had no idea music can sound so good—lively, engaging and fun. Of course it is not just the fact that it is tube gear, it is the right tube gear playing the right speakers. I have not seen the opposite: someone falling head over heals for solid state after living with good tube gear.
I also have seen good tube amps seemingly work magic with even less than terrific speakers. That same dealer takes in all sort of trade-in speakers. To test them, they are played with some amps you would never couple with such crappy speakers but those speakers can sound amazingly good with these amps. We heard a small, old pair of Polk speakers sound great when matched to Western Electric 124 amps (350 B pushpull amp).
There is also the Designs in place where the Aesthetic of the Product, carries a substantial proportion of the costing, placing it at a marketing level that will be referred to as a High End sector of HiFi.
Have a look under the hood and the circuit design will in many cases be discovered to be a mediocre affair, and not too inspiring to somebody in the know.
A Brand and Attractive Aesthetic, can for some, make the sonic produced from the replay 'seem to be' a very refined presentation. Assessing / Listening with the eyes, is only one part of the discipline required, when evaluating equipment being demonstrated.
Very good point. Folks attracted to high end audio do not share a common end point. Some, simply want their system to sound better to them… which, who knows what that means… recreating a college party experience… a concert they heard long ago. Also, if you like one genre of music you will get pulled in a certain direction. Some, no direction… just it sounds better. Some folks try to recreate the sound of live music.
With all these end goals, it is not surprising companies have sprung up catering to different values. I chased former college / ethereal electronic sound for a ten years or so… my test records would sound better… but lots of my albums would sound worse (jazz, classical, rock). I started thinking… “well, what does the real thing sound like? So, I found out… I hung out at acoustical jazz concerts, stopped when I saw a piano player and listened, attended hundreds of classical concerts.
This completely changed my objectives and direction. With each step, all music sounded better (well, except electronic) and over time my system sounded completely outstanding… real. My system now sounds better and more real than going to the symphony (they put in a DSP sound system, which ruined the sound… not all just positive on my side).
If all people had the same goals as I do, then most systems would sound very similar and the design goals of manufactures would be the same. But since they are not, they are not.
I prefer a solid state amps, mono blocks, and a tube peramp. The solid state amps provode tight an solid bass and clarity while the tube preamp warms and softens the sound and takes the harshness out of the cd.
@roxy54 The point being the challenges / arguments or ideas, that can develop about the equipment selected for use are endless, forums are filled with this type of content, there is not a ubiquitous method in use from all who enjoy the replays of recorded music.
The experiencing of a musical encounter comes in a variety of methods, and the entertainment value will vary, depending on how the experience is designed to be created. The enjoyment of being present where there is music to be heard will always prevail.
HiFi (High Fidelity) has the origins for the use of it as a term, that is founded in the 1950's.
It is a Marketing 'Buzz Word', that has successfully stuck and been adopted in daily use.
As in all Marketing 'Buzz Words', there is something a little fantastical about it, the purpose is to have a allure and encourage a certain outcome.
I don't know many who are in pursuit of HiFi as the end goal, I do know many that are in pursuit of a musical encounter, through the replay of recorded music, that is an enjoyable entertainment.
There does seem to be a vast quantity of individuals enjoying replayed music as a result of a replay of a recorded medium.
The electronic designs chosen to achieve the replay is a means to an end, and does not take away from the enjoyment of the experience.
If the goal is to have the 'so called' very best of electronics and mechanical function, then this is a road less travelled, and one that will come with endless confrontation about philosophies and design for such devices selected.
Honestly anything can change sound, 2 of the same models can sound different.
Transistors vs tubes good and bad of each.
I’ve heard worse new transistor amps then better, Heard better tube amps then worse.
Modern Solid State preamp low noise floor can sound great with tube power-amplifier vintage or new.
Why is Marantz 7t worth less then Marantz 7c tube. I have both, both sound great!
Sound signature is close if not the same. 7C takes it further in space, detail, imaging etc. Marantz 7t is damm good, some people upgrade the heck out of them get amazing sounding preamp. 7c bone stock sounds better before doing anything. Is it the tubes? The Caps? Both are made in the US under Saul Marantz and Sidney Smith. They made sure Marantz 7t sounded and performed like the 7c.
Is there better made stuff Sure! Tubes are here to stay. Why are records coming back? Film or etc. I do want to build a 300b amp someday, try those western-electric tubes.
"One thing to have in mind is that many tubed preamps have a high output resistance requiring careful matching with some ss power amps. Otherwise any combination can be successful, depending on speaker, but i have to agree that generally tube sound is more evident with tubed power amps. "
You are absolutely right! I suggested on this forum that we should not go with Tube preamp + SS amplifier, and you are talking the reason now. I only get the opinion from my day to day experiance, and some guys just do not agree with me. Thanks very much to let us know the reason. This is really good message to me.
I guess they would say, you’ve never heard great ss. I never have I know I’ve heard this 300b and oh my!!
People simply like what they like.There are listeners who are thrilled with their SS components and I say good for them. Each of us has to find and obtain what is best on a personal basis. It appears that the Western Electric 300b tubes are serving you well. That’s good to hear.
Nothing like a little tube humor in the morning oddiofyl. Lol
i guess it’s an individual preference but not sure how someone would not enjoy this sound I guess they would say, you’ve never heard great ss. I never have I know I’ve heard this 300b and oh my!
As I mentioned, I’d hate to give up this sound. This 300b is so easy and relaxing to listen to.
Fortunately you don’t have to give up anything . Occasionally you’ll come across a bad tube, it happens. A good quality designed, built and implemented tube component just provides a very natural, believable and emotionally satisfying/involving listening experience.
I would say particularly so with a high quality SET/PSET such as yours. Upper tier 300b tubes are expensive . The trade off is their longevity and superb sound. Keep doing what you are doing, it is yielding you much musical joy and happiness. Isn’t that the entire point of why we listen to music and crave the experience?
I have had a 101D tubed line stage and 300b SET pairing since 2009. My utter satisfaction and joy with this is as high as it has ever been. I now have added a new DAC which contains 7 tubes. This combination is providing me the best transparency and authentic/natural music presentation I’ve ever heard from my audio system. Unadulterated musical bliss and realism. @earthbound, stay the course.
Thanks for the reply ghdprentice. I’ve just got a few bad ones right out of the gate that’s all. Hopefully, smooth sailing for years. As I mentioned, I’d hate to give up this sound. This 300b is so easy and relaxing to listen to.
I have all tube equipment. I am retired and get to listen to my system for about two to three hours a day. I have replaced two tubes in two and a half years (of the ~40) the sound quality well worth it.
I’ve had ss for 25 years and now tube amp and dac. I love the sound. To my ears it’s light years ahead of anything I’ve heard, which is not much admittedly. I can see tube replacement and related issues growing tiresome though. I’d like to get a separate integrated ss/tube and have them side by side. Does anyone have a spare 5-10k laying around! Lol
I provided information. You chose to dismiss what I (and others) wrote. So I figured it was my writing style, so I modeled my last post more like your style. Inflexible. You’re not getting the points others are making. Or maybe you’re getting them, but you are unable to accept that other listeners don’t agree (because they are fools, or desire Low Fi). You seem to have some technical knowledge (which has questionable value for this specific thread), but your posts make you appear close-minded. Maybe it’s an internal struggle… the “science mind” sees differences in numbers that should suggest that what the “feeling mind” hears is nonsensical. Admittedly, that IS frustrating. I feel bad for those who are dealing with that discrepancy. I have heard plenty of live music, and I’ve spent A LOT of time listening to both SS and tube and hybrid equipment. My goal is HIFI, (contrary to what you believe) and I’m getting that from my system… through vacuum tubes! 🤯🤯🤯
I listen to music for 5 to 6 hours a day now that I am retired. I listen to early jazz, blues, bluegrass, and even some crooners. I love beautiful music and tubes give me more enjoyment than ss ever did.
I’m sorry. I disagree with you. You are completely wrong in much of what you write, and you write in antagonistic, derogatory fashion, disguised as “enlightenment”. Some of your facts are actual facts, but some of your “facts” are only your personal opinion, no more than that. And that is 100% fact.
I’m sorry. I disagree with you. You are completely wrong in much of what you write, and you write in antagonistic, derogatory fashion, disguised as “enlightenment”. Some of your facts are actual facts, but some of your “facts” are only your personal opinion, no more than that. And that is 100% fact.
it is contradictory to say that tube amplification is “LOWFI”, while admitting that tube amplifiers can “sound good”
LOWFI ""can"" sound good as long as the listener is expecting LOWFI : there’s no contradiction.
In some cases LOWFI amplification is better, especially with old recordings that are not able to provide good listening experience by themselves but require the amp to add some kind of "body" to the sound (what tube amps are usually doing well with a hudge amount of added distorsion).
Anyway : the world of LOWFI fanatics is very small today : 1) electric guitarists (for most kind of music : electric guitar microphones are unable to provide enough "body" by themselves), 2) phonographs and audiophiles tube amps for those who are searching for the good old sound of their youth, 3) some newcomers who believe what marketing says...
To come back to the main post’s question : tube preamp is total nonsense. What makes tubes enjoyable is second order distorsion at high operating level, preferably in class A operation. But even with this in mind : latest FET FDA are doing better.
So the answer is : no tube anywhere if HIFI is expected ! and tubes only at the power stage if LOWFI is expected.
@spaceguitarist: If one reads the original post, the poster asks for others’ preferences between two choices: tube preamp into SS amp, or SS preamp into tube amp. This is what is on the table. Those who read the post and wanted to be helpful, answered the question. It has unfortunately been turned into another tube vs SS debate by someone who clearly and obviously has an agenda to disrespect those who use their own two ears as the ultimate measuring tool to decide which comes closest to HIFI (and have chosen tube equipment). High fidelity is described in the Merriam-Webster dictionary as “reproduction of an effect (such as sound or image) that is very faithful to the original”. Faithful to the original sound from a stereo system is subjective, and measured by most people using their ears. If a person wants to choose the equipment they use based on measurements collected by other electronic devices, they are absolutely free to do so. But that does not mean that those who use their ears are wrong… clearly and obviously… because I have heard components that measure well but sound dreadful. Also, it is contradictory to say that tube amplification is “LOWFI”, while admitting that tube amplifiers can “sound good”. Good sound is the goal in this hobby. And there is only one instrument that can be the final gauge for each individual, and that instrument is the human ear, regardless of any graph or measure of distortion. Out of respect to the OP, I’d like to specifically answer the original question (I too had been distracted by the “agenda” posts!). I’ve tried many combinations of tube and SS, and in my experience a SS preamp into a tube amplifier is my preference. Ymmv
@spaceguitaristyou regurgitating ASR says all I need to hear from you.
LOOOL 😂 you did not even manage to read up to the end of my post, and you don't provide any argument that could give any credibility to your opinion : so maybe you just wanted to prove that you're not able to have any opinion on the subject ?
@spaceguitaristFWIW there are tube amps that can reproduce those squarewaves and do it properly, on account of having full power response to less than 2 Hz on the bottom end (so no measurable square wave tilt at 20Hz) and response well past 100KHz on the top end.
No, you are totally wrong.
Even the most "high end" tube amps, sold at stupidly high prices : deliver more than bearable distorsion to still be called "hifi" gear. And of course they can’t reproduce square waves (who cares... music isn’t square waves). Not to mention the electricity consumption which is totally ridiculous in our time of global warming and energy crisis. Not to mention wear, microphonic parasites, noise ratio, ...
Again : I’m not stating that tube amps don’t sound good : they often do, at least just like any well built amp can sound good (you can easily find as much shitty tube amps as good ones).
But this kind of deprecated technology is called LOWFI , not HIFI, for good reasons : it doesn’t provide "fidelity" at 2023 expectations.
You could read this funny review from ASR (and trust me if I tell you that ASR is not my cup of tea as I think they understand nothing to audiophile reproduction... but at least if you focus on technical details : it’s an information source of reference).
Below is the typical form of reproduction of a "square" signal by a very good tube amp, at 100Hz, 1000Hz, and 10KHz, I let you judge the massacre...
@spaceguitaristFWIW there are tube amps that can reproduce those squarewaves and do it properly, on account of having full power response to less than 2 Hz on the bottom end (so no measurable square wave tilt at 20Hz) and response well past 100KHz on the top end.
I live close close by. I like more vintage gear, but they make very nice affordable sounding equipment, very nice on there demo floor. Made in USA etc.
I have there pricer Dac and their cheap passive sound great!
Tube amps in my opinion are too high maintenance, although they sound good for certain music. In a world of growing shortages, tubes may increasingly become difficult to find and expensive to buy. I like the idea of a tube preamp coupled to a nice solid state amp. Besides, small signal tubes last quite a long time depending on the design of the tube preamp.
Had a Gryphon Diablo 300 integrated amp (ss) with an ARC Ref 2SE phonostage. Awesome combination - added some tube flavor to the music. I think the ss/tube combo is a good compromise.
I used to think the same thing about tubes as spaceguitarist until I actually used some tube equipment in my system
Perfectly understood and appreciated. As we both recognize, this is a “beaten horse “ debate. In the end each listener settles down with what suits them best. Spaceguitarist does his thing and good for him. No doubt that you’ll continue to do what has worked out best for you. I’ll let it go at that.
Solid state also has higher harmonic distortion that can be heard even at lower levels and is not pleasant to the ear, tubes have lower harmonic distortion which is pleasant to the ear and masks the higher order harmonics. I used to think the same thing about tubes as spaceguitarist until I actually used some tube equipment in my system.
If it sounds closer to the real thing than transistor amps then it doesn’t matter what wave you measure.
First of all High Fidelity has never been supposed to reproduce reality but to reproduce the recording.
Now, even if it’s hard to believe for someone who never worked professionaly in recording studios, the truth is : at least 50% of what you listen has been created with digital processing in the studio.
But overall the statement of Mr Invalid ...is....as his name suggest : if the Fidelity (fidelity to recordings) matters : tube technology has to be avoided, since it’s not HiFi by any means for today’s standards.
Using a tube preamp with a solid state amp requires impedance matching. Typically, tube preamps have a high output impedance which solid state amps can be all over the place. Having a tube preamp with a high output impedance matched to a low input impedance solid state amp can result in dismal performance.
If money is no object I am buying tube and specifically Audi Research Corporation components. However I am not so I enjoy SS and have been a big fan of Moon by Simaudio.
I’ve own McIntosh tube preamp and it was awesome and used SS amps with it; I heard and ARC integrated amp that blew it away. I rally considered it before I went with Moon.
Consequently my answer is it depends and all the best on your decision in allocating limited resources
And what of "the real thing" that never was, but instead was assembled in a studio using digital instruments, analog synthesizers, sampling, etc.?
Maybe there is/was no "real thing."
If this mindset/reasoning works for you, stick with it. Many different perspectives and viewpoints. I understood @invalidcomment. I listen to live music performances pretty often and have developed an ear for live acoustic instruments. More often than not, tubes come closer to mimicking that type of sound presentation.
But that’s just my experiences. If yours are different, that’s also just fine. We all individually choose what suits us best. For me tubes generally sound more natural/realistic. For you probably not. It’s all good . Be yourself.
personally, I’m ecstatic with my solid state gear, nothing to mess with, no tubes popping, taking. Out a midrange, plus, you can if your home, leave them on 365.
Terrific!!
Key to long term satisfaction is choosing what sounds best to “you”. Just please yourself. Exactly why such a huge variety of audio products exist in high end audio.
havng that little bit of warmth from the preamp, is just,enough.
when I was younger, mid 80’s, my Father sold his old reel to reel, amplifiers, I do remember playing sin after sin, hell awaits, UFO, etc, ther was a relaxing sound through tubes, it just felt, enveloping, it sounded just right,…like baby bears porridge. Our old dogs (rip) would get up and leave the room during cd play, and stay asleep playing,records on stereo.
personally, I’m ecstatic with my solid state gear, nothing to mess with, no tubes popping, taking. Out a midrange, plus, you can if your home, leave them on 365.
maybe it will change, maybe I will get an AVA, or CJ, preamp in the future, they do have a nice sound. With my music, I’m better with SS . Metal, and usually loud.
Order from a mail order place, that way, if you don’t like SS or tubed pre, ship back.
Happy hunting.
ps, Technics SL-1200G. Money very thoughtfully, wisely spent.
no belts, won’t break, it’s a 40+ year investment.
i have 3,…2 from mid late 80’s, and one from late 90’s
nothing has ever gone wrong, start, stop, sounds great, the most reliable TT ever built.
The musicality of the "tube" sound is a real phenomenon. It has long been known that listeners appreciate the addition of a certain amount of second harmonic distortion, and tube amplifiers produce just that, due to enormous difficulties in maintaining good linearity with acceptable feedback coefficients.
While this distortion may sound nice, Hifi is supposed to be about precision, and if the sound needs to be altered in this way: it should be limited to a front panel adjustment of the pre-amp or integrated amp, like "Smooth Old Sound: ON/OFF".
Tubes offer some advantages - their overdrive behavior is smoother than solid state, so even when clipping the sound is less "harsh" (even harmonics). While this is desirable for a guitar amplifier that runs on distortion most of the time, it is of no use in Hifi, where distortion must be completely avoided.
Tube amps also (usually, but not always) have a much higher output impedance than solid-state amps, which makes some speakers sound better and others noisy, so results are unpredictable.
In fact there are very few tube amps of any cost that will outperform a very basic modern transistor amp.
Indeed, the vast majority of transistor amps are so superior in every way to any tube amp, that it is hard to justify the use of tubes in anything other than guitar amplification, where, despite lots of marketing hype: no transistor amp has ever been able to sound exactly the same as a tube amp...we're getting close...but it's not the same.
The appearance of monoblock class A triode tube amplifiers ... is truly amazing. They typically have abysmal 1-5% harmonic distortion at rated rpm, are low power (typically less than 5W continuous), not to mention the wear and tear/planned obsolescence of tube technology. Such an amplifier generates large amounts of second order harmonic distortion and requires a very large output transformer. The distortion inherent in the iron-core transformer is ubiquitous, and only violent feedback can eliminate it. Significant feedback around a transformer is extremely difficult to achieve correctly, as phase irregularities usually cause the amplifier to oscillate....
In summary: it may have been the state of the art 50 years ago, but there is no valid reason to use tubes for high fidelity amplification: as long as we know why not praise the virtues of wax cylinders or vinyl... as having a sound superior to the CD, LOOL 😅
Below is the typical form of reproduction of a "square" signal by a very good tube amp, at 100Hz, 1000Hz, and 10KHz, I let you judge the massacre...
Recently in a review I saw an amp over $2800, a class A triode thingy advertised 4% THD at 10 watts....which is absolutely appalling for an amp...even low range: most powered PC speakers do better than that!
I have no doubt that many tube amps have a very smooth, not unpleasant sound... it's not Hifi, but I must admit that I do like Lowfi, from time to time. ..
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