Transients hurting my ears on hifi solid state amps

THE OP's BUDGET IS $2000 ! 

Consider a used Luxman L-550AXII. I had one for a bit, but unfortunately it was damaged in shipping. It’s sound quality is what led me to go with their L-509X. The L-550AXII idle power consumption is “only” 170 watts, which might be less than a tube amp.  

Sounds like clipping and straining except for the Sphinx which I find fatiguing. Tube amps tend to soft clip so that could be a solution- find a deal on a Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum II or III and you will have plenty of power and dynamics with zero fatigue.  I love the sound of that amp. 

Parasound HINT will also work- used and demos should come close to your budget.  

I had a Rogue Sphinx and completely agree it was one of the brightest amps I have ever heard. Sold it off after a few months.

As others have mentioned, moving to a good SS class A amp was the solution that worked for me. I now have both a Pass 30.8 and a Modwright KWA 150 amps. Both are outstanding, possessing great detail without harshness/brightness.

Modwright, especially, comes up on the used market at very reasonable prices and Dan Wright is the best, by far, audio manufacturer I have ever dealt with.

  -GAR

I think that Class A is your solution, however I understand your concerns about heat and energy usage. A good compromise are SS amps that are heavily biased such as the Codas. When I upgraded from NAD to the #8, the change was remarkable in terms of smoothness and lack of fatigue. I realize this is out of your current range, but thought it worth sharing my experience. Other amp brands may offer similar designs. 

You might look at Accuphase. Their x80 series of integrateds are very cool and tip-top quality. Said to be very smooth and rich on the sound. You can insert a DAC card, and a Phono Card, both of which are high-quality, given they are not standalone.  I think the sweet spot is the 380 and 480. 

That said, they are pricey, and the US pricing is messed-up when you compare it to the rest of the world.  They make a Class A SS, but even more pricey.

Thanks @duckworp for the detailed account. Sorry to hear you have the same or a similar issue, but happily you have found a good option for music listening. Your problems sound very familiar, albeit perhaps a little stronger. It does seem that very high end gear can produce fantastic sound without being aggressive and hopefully, taking care of the issues solid state produces. Thanks for the feedback on Naim, it does have a reputation for dynamics and liveliness, so perhaps not the best option. Perhaps a used Luxman could be in my budget.

The EQ is an good idea to investigate, especially as they can be had for cheap. It would be interesting to see if certain frequencies are the issue.

Thanks again for all the fantastic suggestions, I will look into Odyssey, Krell, etc. that are options closer to my budget.

If I did go that class A route, does anyone have experience with First Watt amplifiers in this context? I know the different models have different flavors and I'm not sure which would be most suitable (if any). Used or a DIY kit could make that option more affordable. Any relatively cheap solid state preamp recommendations for a class A power amp?

I currently have a Primaluna Dialogue Premium integrated and I'm very happy with it.

Are you happy with it, and it does not have the shrillness?

Yes, I'm very happy with the Primaluna, but looking for a solid state alternative

Is the Marantz the shrill one?

No, that and the Puccini are SS that are smooth enough for me, but lack in other areas.

I'm looking to switch back to solid state (class AB) for various reasons

What are those?

I currently have my main system in the living room, which is also connected to TV and used for background music, so the hassle of warm up time, no stand by, etc. is leading to less listening. Also, I'm trying to avoid something that heats up as much and uses that much current.

Try a different power cord.  Or speaker cables.  Experiment.  Everything DOES make a difference.

Get an older krell class A amp. They are very smooth and non fatiguing. The ksa series and you can have them rebuilt for under a grand. The build quality is exceptional and it’s pure class A. They do get hot but man do they sound sweet. 
 

Look at Oddessy Audio… Klaus the owner is well respected in the industry. His Khartago Extreme SS Amp can be had for $1450.00. One of the best builds for the price… Read the reviews these amps are keepers you don’t see many of them used and they come with a 20 year warranty that’s transferable. Klaus also makes great PreAmps in both SS & Tube, just be prepared to wait a bit on his pre’s being he can’t make them fast enough due to the demand and reputation.

You also can check out Tube4hifi.com,also known as VTA. Roy the owner makes some amazing preamps that you could add to your SS amp. His SP-14 is an industry classic. Check out the online reviews. He also does some pretty amazing things with his Dynaco 70 Amp Mods.

Both of these guys are pretty respected in the industry and it might be worthwhile to check them out being they could go over amplifier characteristics and nuances with you and probably meet your needs.

Myself I’m using an Odyssey Khartago Extreme Amp & Tubes4Hifi SP-13 Preamp and really enjoying my set up…

www.odysseyaudio.com

www.tubes4hifi.com

With solid state  vs tubes tubes take on more even harmonics when there are peaks ,Solid state in theory odd harmonics which are peaks 

that is why Mosfets by character character can be warmer or look at pass labs specs just to see what is in their DNA build to get an idea,  Bipolor shave a bit softer leading edge like vacuum tubes 

my Coda uses all 3 types , no brightness at all and myself sensitive to brightness

also another potential fix. Is a warmer sounding dac, or audio cables 

Cardas is know for a warmer cable in their reflection models , just on Sourse to start.

If if you can narrow it down to certain frequencies an equalizer might be the easiest solution. I know it‘s frowned upon by some but compared to trying more and more amps and other gear (which you are otherwise happy with), this might be a step worth taking. There are affordable ones on the market that otherwise don‘t compromise the sound quality.

(I‘m thinking about it myself.)

I feel for you as I have the same problem. I would suggest that it is your hearing. My daughter is an audiologist and she explained it to me. It is a condition called Hyperacusis. If you suffer from this you will find that you are sensitive to certain frequencies which feel like they hurt your ears. It is most common that higher frequencies are the worst offenders. Like you the upper register of the piano (mainly above middle C for me) is a strong offender. My daughter is a pianist and I cannot sit in the same room as she when she plays. Other things that you might find uncomfortable in this register of your hearing are: clanking plates when a dishwasher is unloaded, screaming babies, violins, a nail being hammered in, being in full loud restaurants which have a lot of reflective surfaces etc.

Hyperacusis usually comes on gradually during late middle age, but can come on earlier if you have damaged hearing

Unfortunately there is no cure and it is a sign that your hearing is permanently damaged and needs protecting if you go into anywhere loud. So wear ear protection if you go to gigs. You may also get tinnitus with Hyperacusis, but not always. The good news is that if you protect your ears in loud environments it should not get worse.

Regarding Hi-Fi: I had to sell my Naim gear as it sounded harsh and affected my Hyperacusis. I demoed many solid state amps, front ends and speakers. I ended up with a Vitus amp and DAC - they have a wonderful sound with no hard edges that affect my hearing. Speakers I chose were Boenicke (a Swiss company making very natural sounding speakers). I also recommend Luxman amps, they were very smooth and didn’t affect my ears.

Good luck!

Thanks everyone for the advice. There are indeed a lot of things to look at that could help out, even though I still feel there's something related to air pressure and very fast transients that's particularly bugging my sensitive ears, and that it's coming mainly from the amplifier. I've had 3 amplifiers that were fine (Audio Analogue Puccini SE is the one I haven't mentioned) and two that were not, all other things being equal. But certainly working on the rest might make more amplifiers work for me.

I'll see if I find a picture of my main listening room, it's temporarily not used as such, so I can't take one now. I do have panels in first and second reflection points, as well as some extra panels and bass traps. But I tried the amps mostly in another room, which was less treated, so there might be something to that also.

My interconnects are mostly Morrow Cables. I know they are not the smoothest and especially the ones containing a part of silver could be particularly problematic. But I didn't find that changing them to other interconnects (QED for instance) helped, other than losing a lot of definition and clarity. I will try to find some good cables to try out. I use Isotek Initium and Premier power cables mostly because they're the only ones doing a Swiss version. No power conditioning, just an audiophile power strip without any filtering. The power cords do make the amps have more clarity and rhythm, and I believe the transients are faster with those cables. I did also try with normal cables, but they didn't completely solve the issue. Perhaps I should change my power socket (I'm renting, so wanted to avoid) at home so I could try other power cables, such as the Shunyata.

Thanks for the recommendations again. I would love to try Pass Labs or First Watt amps, and they are on top of my endgame list, but I would like to avoid class A because of the heat and electricity consumption. They are also currently out of my budget unfortunately (ideally max 2000$, perhaps stretching to 3000$). Because of the current use case, an integrated with auto standby would be better than having to manually power on and power off various components (e.g. when watching TV or putting background music). Some other recommendations were also too expensive. But if it's correct as @audioman58 states that moving to higher end amplifiers would help, that would be very positive news.

From the ones listed, Naim is the one closes to my budget and easiest to test around here. Hegel would also be a possibility, even though stretching the budget a bit and I don't like paying for a streamer and a DAC I won't use. Perhaps a used one would make sense as proposed by @curiousjim, even though I'm not sure I need to go as far up the line as H360.

I also checked the Hafler amps, somewhat limited supply here in Europe and I'm not sure I want to go the vintage route for now.

Any recommendations regarding Naim, could the Nait 5SI be ok or should I move up the line or go with an older model?

I currently have a Primaluna Dialogue Premium integrated and I'm very happy with it.

Are you happy with it, and it does not have the shrillness?

The amp I tried to replace was a Marantz PM6005, which is also very smooth. Both are under the recommended power rating of the speakers (even though that's relative for a tube amp), so I'm wondering whether that could be part of it.

Is the Marantz the shrill one?

I listen mostly to vinyl (Graham Slee Reflex M preamp) with some digital too (Denafrips Pontus II). Both are relatively smooth and vinyl, while usually being softer, doesn't solve the issue. 

Ok - so digital and vinyl both showing thing the same thing, sort of rules out the digital and vinyl being bad - or they are both equally bad.

I'm looking to switch back to solid state (class AB) for various reasons

What are those?

… and I was wondering if anybody had had similar experiences and recommendations for amps…

I crave and insist that my rig sounds accurate, coherent, and clear. I recommend a Pass XA-25...smooth as buttah...

Hi there,I found the primaluna took a while to settle down.I tried several things to lower the frequency.Take the speakers further out from the wall,it could be your speakers with other things like power sockets and cords,maybe interconnect.Shunyata pc are smooth. .You will get there.My pl hp is a good thing,i have since gone back to seperates,and love it.

op

room and setup - a few pictures speaks a thousand words

buchardt s300's are hardly sharp sounding speakers, i had them, they are warm sounding, with a rolled off tweeter

solid state amps will accentuate treble much more prominently than a primaluna, which is also warm and fairly rolled off

my money is on the room, or just how your hearing is easily irritated by treble

What is your wire? Interconnects  speaker and power.cords? Do you have a power conditioner  that some things are plugged into? Those things all need to be looked at. Also the newer trend is to talk about sparkle  on top twenty  years ago they called that bright. Do your speakers have two sets of pots on them? Do you have the flat bars between  them are you plugged into the top or bottom  set? So receptacles  cab sound bright as well. You have a basic  problem there you need to find it. 

I'm in agreement with @tuberist.

What are the room acoustics like? Early reflections and slap echo will cause fatigue from high frequencies.

My advice would be, do not spend money on equipment, cables, or tweaks until you have addressed room acoustics.

@jasonbourne52 Yep, my DH220 is just lovely. Only drawback is the class A heat but the upside is in my northern climate it doubles as a space heater in the winter. Depending on the poster’s power needs a DH120 or DH500 would be just as nice.

@zonkler +1! Those old Hafler DH200/220 amps are forgotten treasures! Capable of going up against today’s overpriced amps. I have one, along with the Hafler preamp!

What is your budget? If it is just a few hundred you could consider a vintage MOSFET power amp like a Hafler. Should sound relatively “sweet” due to the lower order harmonics without breaking any banks.

I had that happen to me.....I sent the speaker back to the manufacturer who fixed the problem,

@haskisoundi 

You might be able to find a used Hegel H360. It’s class A/B and has more than enough power for your speakers. It’s neutral to a bit warm sounding. It’s probably going to be more than 2K, but you never know.

All the best.

JD

Start with buying much better equipment , such as Pass labs, Coda Boulder Gryphon, Goldman, Hegel , Naim ,Luxman and many others

myself I bought the excellent Coda CSIB integrated amp which is high bias in pure class A , with many amps or preamp the coupling capacitors ,even power capacitors can be upgraded and sonicly greatly improve its sonics ,

if you can’t afford a expensive amplifier then seek out a quality Audio technician and have it modded, Swiss capacitors like Elma Silmic actually have silk and give a smoother presentation , bypassing power capacitors with quality.1 uf poly caps smooth out the top end also , as well as the resistor type in Arcam very basic parts quality ,rule of thumb on average only 25% of the cost actually goes into it .The rest  R&D overhead and markup. There are many other things including quality WBT copper gold connectors ,vs the cheap gold plated brass that comes with most  pieces of equipment .in my system every component has upgraded connectors including power cords and Loudspeaker connectors and the very important Loudspeaker Xovers.

I can't provide suggestions in your budget, but what you describe is definitely an attribute of some SS amps. Of course we should be cognizant of room acoustics and address problems there when necessary, but I've heard enough examples of gear across a few systems/rooms to realize that each amp has its own, very distinct sonic fingerprint.

My friend has AudioNet mono amps (the small ones), and they're very striking in their complete lack of fatigue and ease of listening. They ALMOST sound like tube amps in many ways. 

You might like the Konus Audio Integrale, coming from someone who primarily listens to vacuum tube amps.

Thanks atmasphere! That’s a very detailed explanation and makes sense to me. Sound pressure is exactly what I’m feeling. I know Nelson Pass talks a lot about different ordered harmonics regarding his designs. Not sure they would be right, but out of my price range unfortunately.

Thanks for the Croft recommendation too, I’ll look into it. I think I had it as an option at some point, not sure why I decided against it. I’m ideally looking for an all solid state design, but open to having tubes in the pre.

I have two turntables with very different cartridges (MC and MM) and I don’t feel that makes the difference. Adjusting VTA, especially on the Hana SL, makes a difference in terms of smoothness/harshness, but it’s not the main issue. I also feel the issue with different DACs.

Perhaps your phono cartridge is not tracking properly or is worm out?

Thanks for the quick replies. I totally agree that the listening space is crucial, not off-base at all. I have had the system in different rooms and my listening room is currently treated with a good number of GIK panels and bass traps. The room can cause issues, but I don't it's affecting the main issue I'm hearing.

I usually don't toe in speakers at all, and the Buchardt recommends to keep them straight. Toe-in does make the sound brighter, but I don't feel it affects the main issue I'm trying to describe. To exaggerate, the transients feel like loud noises that make you instinctively close your eyes.

My ears are evidently particularly sensitive to this. I knew that I could only listen to headphones at very low volumes, but before getting into better gear, I had never had issues with speaker systems. Would be interesting to hear if anybody else has had something similar.

Thanks for the Luxman recommendation. That's a brand that I associate with the kind of sound I'm looking for, but haven't had the chance to test and it's unfortunately not in my budget.

To me, modern higher end solid state amplifiers tend have too much slam or too sharp transients and that ends up hurting my ears even at 60db levels. Even listening to mellow jazz, the piano notes are just uncomfortable to listen to because of the attack.

This is caused by higher ordered harmonics that are part of the distortion spectra of the amplifier. In this case, those higher ordered harmonics are not masked by the lower orders. The ear is keenly sensitive to the higher orders as it uses them to sense sound pressure. It also converts all forms of distortion to a tonality; the higher orders are interpreted as 'harsh and bright'.

An amplifier that has enough lower ordered harmonic distortion (the 2nd and 3rd) can mask the presence of the higher orders and so sound smoother. This is why most tube amps sound smoother than most solid state amps.

Getting a solid state amp to do this or have low enough distortion so the harmonics are actually masked by the music is a bit of a trick, but they do exist.

Croft Integrated Phono. 3 tubes in the phono/preamp section and 45 watt MOSFET output. Sweet and detailed. Add an aftermarket NOS Mullard tube (in the output buffer position #3) to take any edge off. (new unit, Save the wait and $400 used unit)

Luxman 505 Uxii has a smooth detailed sound. Worth looking into.

Do you toe your speakers in directly to your ears? If so, I suggest reducing the toe-in before you do anything else.  Also consider giving them an upward tilt so you listen closer to the mid-woofer axis than the tweeter.

I was unable to see any photos you posted of your listening space. I may be off-base but your comments about the transients suggest a room in need of treatment.