Tone controls -- assuming you're ok with them, when would you try them?

Reading this article may remove some of the apprehension {or dare I say guilt) in using the Loki for many audiophiles, including me. I’ve had it for a couple of years but, although I believe in it, have used it very sparingly to very positive effect.
it really does make a remarkable difference in the enjoyment of some sources.

TAS is fun to read and some here might be interested in this:

Schiit Audio Loki Mini Equalizer - The Absolute Sound    $150

When an audio designer is deciding on what turnover frequency will be the most likely effective to the most systems, it is a gamble. Say for example a bass tone control. Ok, where will the turnover frequency be set? I have seen them set as low as 20hz all the way up to 120hz. If you give the consumer a choice of 3 different possible turnover frequencies, 30hz, 50hz, or 100hz, then there is a greater chance that the control can do a more effective job with your system. Same of course with treble. Maybe 3khz, 6khz, or 12khz, etc. 

  Maybe the best that I have had was by SAE, which used a two band per channel parametric EQ. 

BTW, the tide is turning. I’m seeing more and more very well designed EQ functions in modern line stages. One example would be the Zesto Leto. Included is a six position, remote controlled "Presence" control. No getting around it, some recordings are going to be edgy, aggressive or bright because someone wasn’t doing their job properly during tracking, mixing or mastering. A very nice and useful feature. Interesting to note the designer was a well regarded recording engineer for many years while the rest of us were being brainwashed through these audiophile forums.

All the time since there is no perfect room and therefore, even if you are the best set up guy in the world and have added reasonable acoustic treatments, EQ for minor, final fine tuning is icing on the cake. Every LP and CD you own has been EQed many times before it hits your home; no debate like you find among audiophiles in the recording/mixing/mastering industry.

I'm saving for a Manley Massive Passive (I can also use it in my studio) for analog and I do my final EQ for digital using the EQ and room correction algorithms in my Weiss DAC501.

IMHO, the Schitt EQ products are a gift to all audiophiles. The Lokius with six bands is where I would start. I tell everyone who will listen to pick the one in their price range, play with it for a few weeks and return it if it isn't for you. Nothing to lose and a lot to gain.

This will horrify dealers though. In many cases trying EQ is likely to stop the silliness of trying to EQ your system with cable swaps, component swaps, funny things that go under other funny things and so on.

I'm beginning to think that the elimination of early tone controls (yes, I know, cheap parts, bad circuits but why throw the baby out with the bathwater) was a savvy idea in the early days of high end to keep folks changing gear when all it would take is a few turns of a few knobs.

Anyone that can't/won't optimize speaker and listening position per Jim Smith's Get Better Sound or any other tried and true method must try one of these. I insist. Cult leader Jason Stoddard can thank me later.

microphone selection is the first tone control in the recording chain…….

a standing debate whether tone controls are worth the (likely) sound degradation

Which is a silly debate when the mixing console your music was made on has tone controls all over the signal chain. If the circuit is designed well, the tone control won’t ruin your sound by running it flat. Also saying you should at no point need tone controls is like saying I will only ride a bike with no brakes and adjustments because I am that much of a purist that even having the option to stop or enhance the experience to my liking as needed ruins my pure experience. Laughable logic.

As so many have mentioned here, the room is to be dealt with first. Unfortunately most audiophiles are lying to themselves about speaker placement and room treatment. Tile floors, glass sliding doors, and speaker pushed into corners tell me that the first attempt wasn't made. 
 The use of tone controls should com After that. So now as others have also mentioned, tone controls themselves can be a waste of time, at least in you acoustical environment/system. Bass and treble turnover frequencies are not able to be selected like on the old Yamaha gear, for example. In the past, JVC used a set of 5 tone controls. Maybe good.

"Move closer" -- love it! 
"Spatial expander?" Move around.
"Turn it off?" Leave the house.
"Turn it on?" Return to house.
And so on.
Thanks for the chuckle, builder3!

My next amp won't have volume control, either. If I want the music louder, I'll just move closer.
In all seriousness, my integrated amp has all that old-school stuff. Bass, treble, balance, loudness. Most of the time, it isn't used, and is in fact bypassed completely. But at times, it's useful. Not every piece of music is recorded well.
L.

You need tone controls as you age and your hearing is no longer as good as when you were 12 years old. 

I was wanting a tone control this morning, listening quietly in my basement with everyone else asleep.
I was wanting a tone control yesterday, trying out some Klipsch 600m speakers, to see if the brightness could be tamed.
I was wanting tone control two days ago, to see how much my subwoofer was contributing to the the lower end of my speakers.
I was wanting tone control because an old Joni Mitchell recording had buried her voice in the live mix.
Are there better ways to accomplish these things? Probably.
Would it be ideal if my listening room never needed tone-control adjustment? Sure.
Once my system reaches perfection, will I take my tone control out to the driveway, douse it with lighter fluid, and offer it to the gods as a burnt offering? Of course not.

I have a question. Do the players of music, use tone control?
Can the guy on bass, turn it up? Can the Gal singing lead, give it the
"thumbs up" and the lead vocals volume is increased? 350-3000 hz
I really don’t understand, NO tone control.

I’m not willing to put up with noise when I can live with sound.
Tone control features DO color the sound, or UN color, so to speak.

A turn of a knob, knowing it will fix a problem for your ears in that room for that song.

Are you saying the lead guy on his Les Paul, that swaps to another, Les Paul, to an acoustic Martin, to a ukulele. Didn’t use tone control?

No tone control, really limits what I would be listening to in my sound areas. No tone control in a shop. Really? After work, no noise, ear plugs and muffs are off. You don’t change the tone controls? Hee hee You guys crack me up...

I’m dedicated to the sound at that time. Home, car, shop, work....
In " The Room ", its stays pretty flat across the tone control sections.
20% of my music listening is in the room. What about the rest of listening time?

Don’t listen, not an option.. I’ll use my tone control

Go ahead and tell me how ALL of you don’t use tone control, you all do,
think about it.. Your car, you partners car, no tone control, yes there is, and you use it...
Need to get into treatment, self denial, is running rampant.
LOL. Don’t take offense now...

Regards

These last two posts really speak to another side of audio which I love -- not only *adjusting the sound balance* (as if we were all recording engineers) but also just *play.* I like to play with things. Remembering that helps keep life meaningful to me.

I have enjoyed playing with the 25hz and 50hz knobs on my C53 in my system. It helped make certain 'woosh' types of bass sound much more impressive.

Well, I got my Loki just to see what it would do. Schiit shipped the day I ordered it.
Love it! And, it did not noticeably degrade sound quality as far as I could tell.  It can be bypassed with one pushbutton on the Manley remote. With the mid bass and lower treble turned up just a bit, there was more prescence and “air” on most recordings - especially voice. Very subtle though, and I probably couldn’t tell if it was in or out of the circuit without instantaneous a-b switching.

Pictures of me in a corset are strictly fake news.

I find the anti-tone control fanatics to be the modern day equivalent of corset wearers. Rigid adherence to an aesthetic without much practical benefit

. LOL, I agree Eric.

@mesch Thanks! Yes, interconnects...oy.

Insertion of EQ between pre and amp allows use for all sources.

In an all digital system, where the DAC is used as the hub for more than one source  the EQ can be inserted between DAC and pre.

The Loki is a quality piece, at a price that allows one to explore the use of EQ without distracting much from funds that might be allocated elsewhere. Does require the cost of another pair of interconnects however. 

Thanks for the illumination, all!

I personally use tone controls to boost the bass at lower volumes and boost the treble a bit.

Reasons:

1) For the treble, because of our age, we lose hearing at higher frequencies.  Anyone who denies this must come from another planet.  So, it compensates for my loss of hearing at higher frequencies.

2) For the bass, the human ear does NOT have a flat response like the output from an amplifier.  Far from it.  At low volumes, bass is not as hearable as it would be at higher volumes.  It is just the way our physiology is.  In the 70s that is why the "loudness" option was on the devices.  I wish they would bring that button back.

So, my advice to the audiophiles who convince themselves adamantly that their hearing response is a perfect horizontal straight line, I suggest making an appointment with a hearing specialist to bring you down to the real world.

At what point do you go for tone controls? 

When you don't like what you are hearing.

As it has been said there are no laws that dictate how you have to listen to music. You are not going to be arrested, tortured, killed or thrown in jail  for using tone controls or room treatments or power conditioners or whatever. The only one you have to please is yourself and maybe your spouse or S.O. Anybody else's opinion not only doesn't matter it shouldn't matter. If using tone controls makes you happy use them, if not using tone controls makes you happy don't use them, but don't let anybody tell you one way is correct and the other way is wrong.

I asked a local dealer about the Loki; he has a couple dozen older equalizers for sale. He pointed at a shelf filled with them and wondered why anyone would need to buy a new, 4 dial equalizer, when they could easily get 5, 10, 30 band equalizers on the used market.

A quiet EQ with carefully selected parts is better than at least half of the old school EQ's. Especially the analog pro Behringers for instance.  

Eirk is correct about Behringer. They are to be avoided.

If you were interested in going the analogue 1/3 octave (30 band) e.q. route, you will want to look into Klark-Teknik. The DN360 has been the industry standard in professional music reproduction for decades and can be found used on ebay very economically. Other brands that could be considered alternatives would be BSS and XTA with an honorable mention going to Rane.

The thing about a 1/3 octave e.q. is that it takes a little practice to know which fader to adjust to make the change you want. A better way to look at a 1/3 octave e.q. would be to use it as electronic room treatment.  You would tune you system with the e.q. to your room where as with room treatment you are tuning the room to your system. Ideally if you are not opposed to tone control you would use both. Of course a tuned system nor a tuned room will completely fix those bad recordings so using the Schiit Loki at this point could be a very effective solution.

Preamp ----> tone control ----> amp ?

This is the best way to insert an external tone control. This is very easily done if you have separates.

And for an integrated, I'm not sure I understand.

In order to use external tone controls with an Integrated, the integrated would have to have either a preamp out and in connectors or a tape loop out and in connectors. This will effectively give you the connection as above. Preamp-Tone Control-Amp

Tone controls, room treatments, power conditioners, interconnects, etc. etc. etc. are just tools that are at your disposal to use in your quest to the holy grail of sound reproduction that you desire, if you want to. Nothing more, nothing less. I recommend using whatever makes you happy. 

The disadvantage of using the tape loop circuit (vs preamp/amp or source) is that there will be 2 extra sets of interconnects vs. one extra set. You may spend more on the ICs than the Loki, and have more cable degradation.

The Loki is absolutely appropriate for a "high end" system...it's the cleanest and quietest EQ I've come across in decades of home audio and pro audio experience, and although I use it rarely, generally to spruce up older vinyl, it's an amazing thing. I "EQ" my system by sometimes adjusting my subs here and there and the Loki isn't in the system at all until needed simply to keep cable runs shorter (I put it between my preamp and amp...no loop available)...Don't fear the Loki...

@cscrutinizer, 
Thanks, decooney. I'm looking for a tube pre and am considering the Aretha and Don Sachs. I've read only a few, not too descriptive, but positive posts about the Aretha. The Sachs has had all rave reviews. I would have Don add a tape loop for a Loki or other tone control.

cscrutinizer,
I'm not sure if you noticed the option-upgrade selection and the tone defeat feature which is kinda neat, and how the optional loudness function is actually invoked is kinda throw-back interesting.  If you could completely defeat those functions out of the signal path I'm assuming you'd have a purist grade preamp too, if that's the case.

He's compared it to his own Shindo and Dennis Had Inspire preamps too, which he enjoys, yet this is the one preamp he ends up using particularly since moving away from vinyl to R2R Ladder DACs and lossless streamed content, low wattage amps, and high-efficiency speakers which tend to reveal a lot with his main system, fwiw. 

@ decooney

Thanks, decooney. I'm looking for a tube pre and am considering the Aretha and Don Sachs. I've read only a few, not too descriptive, but positive posts about the Aretha. The Sachs has had all rave reviews. I would have Don add a tape loop for a Loki or other tone control.

@mesch , tvad -- I'm sorry I'm not quite following.

If one was thinking about separates, are you saying the best way is to insert the tone control *between* the preamp and the amp?

Preamp ----> tone control ----> amp ?

Rather than:

Source ----> tone control ----> preamp ?

And for an integrated, I'm not sure I understand. Sorry.

+1 tvad. I agree that the best way to use a tone control is via a tape loop or if one has a pre or integrated with a fixed output to run from the fixed output to line level input. 

@cscrutinizer
As I recall Holger’s Erhard Audio "Aretha" 6SL7 based preamp with tone controls. Off the top of my head don’t remember if it has the tone defeat or loudness switch options or not, or if those were available when he ordered it a few years ago I think it was. He’s swapped out the coupling caps to try a few others to test, and the stock Mundorfs were fine too he indicated http://www.erhard-audio.com/Aretha.html

@ decooney

What preamp with tone controls did your friend get?

"A good friend and total tube nut with several custom built boutique tube preamps recently picked up a nice tube preamp with quality tone controls.  He absolutely loves it.  He uses it for (-1) tuning of high frequencies (mainly for streamed content) when listening to older/bad recordings of tracks he enjoys listening to.  Says it expanded his listening library. "can listen to anything now".  

Now it's his favorite preamp in his tube preamp collection."

I like the simplicity. Just hard to see how they made it so well for $150. But that's what people say about *all* their stuff, I take it.

I’ve had older multi-band equalizers. All degraded the SQ of high-mid to high end systems. The hope is that the Loki will essentially be transparent (although it does add either one or 2 ICs into the signal circuit). At $150, and easily bypassed, it’s worth a try for someone who has the funds. Also the simplicity of having only 4 bands seems like an advantage.

A quiet EQ with carefully selected parts is better than at least half of the old school EQ's.  Especially the analog pro Behringers for instance. 

Noisy, cheap parts for the most part.  Not all were the same, but hey, if you could get a Cello... that would work. :)

I asked a local dealer about the Loki; he has a couple dozen older equalizers for sale. He pointed at a shelf filled with them and wondered why anyone would need to buy a new, 4 dial equalizer, when they could easily get 5, 10, 30 band equalizers on the used market. 

Is there a reason this one is so popular? Is it the only one out there that's new, cheap, cute? Or is there something about the technology in this little box?

You're getting pretty close to the "TMI" line for me, Erik. ;-)

@hilde45

I feel like it is important my fans get a real sense of who I am.  Also, I smell like lavender.

I have a Manley Stingray II, which has a REC OUT / LOOP IN capability. Thinking of adding a Schiit Loki to tweak tone, especially for low volume night listening.

Some reviewers have tried the $149 Loki thinking they would just buy/return just to test it, and ended up keeping it. While it might not make sense for an ultra high-end $ transparent system, it could be a great solution for a mid-fi, secondary, or den room system. SG did a review on it too, video: https://youtu.be/94Nr6JR_Whg

I have a Manley Stingray II, which has a REC OUT / LOOP IN capability. Thinking of adding a Schiit Loki to tweak tone, especially for low volume night listening. At normal volumes, system seems right on - but who knows. Maybe the Loki would improve things overall. It’s cheap and easily defeatable. Thoughts?

You're getting pretty close to the "TMI" line for me, Erik. ;-)

Some people even get the wax cleared out of their ears. That's a drastic form of tone control.

You may think this is funny, but I encourage regular use of a body wash and the shower head.  I produce quite a bit of wax, more in one ear than another and after having to have it medically removed I notice my right ear starts to clog, and the L/R balance starts to shift if I do not very regularly include aural irrigation as part of my routine.

Some people even get the wax cleared out of their ears. That's a drastic form of tone control.

...The purist ideology falls flat more often than not. Also, why NOT use tone controls if they are otherwise transparent? Why should I go out looking for a new preamp/amp/power cable if the tone control is right in front of me??  ...

And those same purists use interconnect and speaker cables as passive tone controls, while tube folks roll tubes to change tone too. Yet some rather go spend big $$$ on a new preamp or power cables over tone controls with hopes of changing the tone and sound in some way.  It's all good, just interesting how we all approach it in different ways.  

One way or the other there is some tone-controlling going on. :) 

@erik_squires That's exactly right. I was reading a thread here on Agon, "Which Steely Dan recordings should I get?" Turns out, there are many different versions; some mastered this way, others mastered that way. Which one is the true one? No such thing. "Better" and "worse" versions exist contingent on what the particular goals of a particular listener are. Again -- up to each of us. You want punchy upper end and you get that with tone controls? Go ahead, spice it up. I sleep better when I know that absolutely everything which could "degrade" the signal has been eliminated? Waiter, bring me a glass of milk. 

"Sound problems can *always* be fixed without tone controls"

There’s more to life than serving your stereo. Not everyone can afford a dedicated listening room, or different speakers for different uses. Also, how, exactly, do you fix issues of the recording engineer making choices for speakers that were trendy a decade ago?

The purist ideology falls flat more often than not. Also, why NOT use tone controls if they are otherwise transparent? Why should I go out looking for a new preamp/amp/power cable if the tone control is right in front of me??

Why on earth are super expensive cables OK to use to adjust the tone, hell even buying new speakers and amps, why are those OK but not tone controls?? Makes no sense to me.

@erik_squires I tried to head that off with the setup to my question. To me, there’s not much difference between audio and food. You think a salad is better with a bit of pepper? You in the mood for parmesan on your pizza? Your coffee needs more milk? Who am I to say? It’s not my place. Your equipment, your subjective experience.

The question becomes a live one when one already prefers to leave the sound alone -- a nod to the purists -- but wants, occasionally, to adjust things, to fix a problem. Then, the question becomes "How best to do that?" The answer "I’d never do that" is tantamount either to, "Sound problems can *always* be fixed without tone controls" or "I’d rather live with the problem than introduce tone controls (because they’re just another problem)."

I miss the functionality of the Loudness control in particular when I'm using the audio system for background music. The volume is set to a low level and, as predicted by Fletcher-Munson, the low frequencies are MIA.