Tone controls -- assuming you're ok with them, when would you try them?

I have found that people who love tone controls & room correction gizmos do so because they don't want acoustic treatments plastered all over the walls of the Home & Garden living room.
IMO this remixes the original sound.Closer to the truth reproduction requires acoustic treatments & proper placement not digital or analog reediting.

" QUESTION: If the sound is not right in your room, and you've placed speakers as best you can, what do you try next? At what point do you go for tone controls?"

From the beginning if it seems something is just not "right", but only a hair size adjustment at a time.  I usually only adjust the treble(+ or -) and maybe the balance knob based on whether I sit on the sofa or love seat.  The controls on my Yamaha A-S1000 integrated amp are probably the best implemented ones I have ever used. 

Bill

Well, thanks for quoting me but I want to address a couple of things:

a standing debate whether tone controls are worth the (likely) sound degradation

This is very equipment specific. My current integrated, a Luxman, has totally transparent tone controls. I can’t hear them do more to the sound than I want. My previous Parasound P7 pre however noticeably veiled the sound when engaged, so this seems to be specific to the implementation.

Also, audiophiles are curious creatures. We don’t always think about pros and cons, we think exclusively of the cons, or we ignore the cons of whatever our trendy solution might be. Too bright? Well, let’s’ go spending thousands of dollars on interconnects until we get it right!!

Lastly, I do think in our genetically transmitted knowledge, audiophiles too often equate modest tone controls with the heavy handed use of noisy, crappy EQ’s from the 80’s.

what do you try next?

Room acoustics are always a place to start.

At what point do you go for tone controls?

Whenever you want to. It’s not as if you are going to taint yourself or be arrested. The police won’t come and take away your gear. Take some deep breaths and try it in the privacy of your own home. Draw the shades if you are afraid of being seen. :)  But, don't try to fix a speaker with them. If a speaker doesn't sound right to you most of the time, and the room isn't it, chances are that's what needs to change for you.

For me, typically though it is late at night. I find the loudness switch a real benefit to listening at low volumes.  It's a lot better than having two pairs of spaekers, one for late night, one for the afternoon. :)

Above all, try it. Ask yourself what your own benefits and issues are when you use tone controls. :)

Best,

E

@erik_squires I always love your answers.
Good point about the gear. I'd heard that about Luxman.

"It’s not as if you are going to taint yourself or be arrested."

LOL!
I hear you about room acoustics, and I know there are ways of dealing with that that does not require specialty equipment, necessarily.
When I lived in apartments, loudness buttons were frequently useful.

I'm lucky enough that I don't need them. And if I felt like I did, I would explore other avenues before using a band aid approach.

YMMV........

Another way to think of this is like this:

"I don't always drink beer, but when I do..."

Meaning, it's' good to set up your system so that it's in the middle of the lane for the music you listen to, at the volumes you listen to. If you like rock or heavy metal, get speakers for that, instead of buying neutral and jacking up the bass and treble.

But, once you know where the middle of the road is, your tone controls act as subtle adjustments.  Also, tone controls can be lifestyle tools. :)  Need to keep the speakers too close to the rear wall? Turn the bass down.

And not replying to anyone in particular here, but I’m pretty sure all human beings should come equipped with tone controls. (At least, that’s what people would say to me if they thought out loud!)

@erik_squires 
...Meaning, it's' good to set up your system so that it's in the middle of the lane for the music you listen to, at the volumes you listen to. If you like rock or heavy metal, get speakers for that, instead of buying neutral and jacking up the bass and treble. 

But, once you know where the middle of the road is, your tone controls act as subtle adjustments. Also, tone controls can be lifestyle tools. :) Need to keep the speakers too close to the rear wall? Turn the bass down. 

+1, good advice.  

And, I was anti-tone controls for decades until I heard some really good preamps/integrated amps with them.

A good friend and total tube nut with several custom built boutique tube preamps recently picked up a nice tube preamp with quality tone controls.  He absolutely loves it.  He uses it for (-1) tuning of high frequencies (mainly for streamed content) when listening to older/bad recordings of tracks he enjoys listening to.  Says it expanded his listening library. "can listen to anything now".  

Now it's his favorite preamp in his tube preamp collection.  

I'm about to receive ownership of a C53 solid state stereo preamp next week and it has many knobs on the front for 9 band EQ.

Hey @d2girls weren't you about to buy an Accuphase??

QUESTION: If the sound is not right in your room, and you've placed speakers as best you can, what do you try next? At what point do you go for tone controls? 

There is no point at which you go for tone controls.

I have tone controls on my pre-amp, don't use them.  I use the digital equalizer in iTunes for a few great performances that were poorly recorded.  I look at the subject of tone controls pretty simple, It's my music, I paid for it and I'll listen to it any darn way I want.

"Focused on developing outboard (i.e. separate) tone controls for audiophiles and music lovers who miss them. Delicious Decibels". :)    

http://www.deliciousdecibels.com/about-us.html



.

Totally love the tone controls on my c-900 pre-amp; Completely transparent and takes rock performances to another level--far more enjoyable than flat; An interesting thing I noticed is that at higher levels and with a modest boost (3-6 dB on the bass knob), the sound stage becomes more enveloping and blooming; I love it;
It has taken me many years to find a pre-amp with such a high fidelity implementation of tone controls and I hope I can hang on to this luxman pre-amp for life; I regretted selling it soon after I let it go the first time; 

 

I find the anti-tone control fanatics to be the modern day equivalent of corset wearers.  Rigid adherence to an aesthetic without much practical benefit.

I miss the functionality of the Loudness control in particular when I'm using the audio system for background music. The volume is set to a low level and, as predicted by Fletcher-Munson, the low frequencies are MIA.

@erik_squires I tried to head that off with the setup to my question. To me, there’s not much difference between audio and food. You think a salad is better with a bit of pepper? You in the mood for parmesan on your pizza? Your coffee needs more milk? Who am I to say? It’s not my place. Your equipment, your subjective experience.

The question becomes a live one when one already prefers to leave the sound alone -- a nod to the purists -- but wants, occasionally, to adjust things, to fix a problem. Then, the question becomes "How best to do that?" The answer "I’d never do that" is tantamount either to, "Sound problems can *always* be fixed without tone controls" or "I’d rather live with the problem than introduce tone controls (because they’re just another problem)."

"Sound problems can *always* be fixed without tone controls"

There’s more to life than serving your stereo. Not everyone can afford a dedicated listening room, or different speakers for different uses. Also, how, exactly, do you fix issues of the recording engineer making choices for speakers that were trendy a decade ago?

The purist ideology falls flat more often than not. Also, why NOT use tone controls if they are otherwise transparent? Why should I go out looking for a new preamp/amp/power cable if the tone control is right in front of me??

Why on earth are super expensive cables OK to use to adjust the tone, hell even buying new speakers and amps, why are those OK but not tone controls?? Makes no sense to me.

@erik_squires That's exactly right. I was reading a thread here on Agon, "Which Steely Dan recordings should I get?" Turns out, there are many different versions; some mastered this way, others mastered that way. Which one is the true one? No such thing. "Better" and "worse" versions exist contingent on what the particular goals of a particular listener are. Again -- up to each of us. You want punchy upper end and you get that with tone controls? Go ahead, spice it up. I sleep better when I know that absolutely everything which could "degrade" the signal has been eliminated? Waiter, bring me a glass of milk. 

...The purist ideology falls flat more often than not. Also, why NOT use tone controls if they are otherwise transparent? Why should I go out looking for a new preamp/amp/power cable if the tone control is right in front of me??  ...

And those same purists use interconnect and speaker cables as passive tone controls, while tube folks roll tubes to change tone too. Yet some rather go spend big $$$ on a new preamp or power cables over tone controls with hopes of changing the tone and sound in some way.  It's all good, just interesting how we all approach it in different ways.  

One way or the other there is some tone-controlling going on. :) 

Some people even get the wax cleared out of their ears. That's a drastic form of tone control.

Some people even get the wax cleared out of their ears. That's a drastic form of tone control.

You may think this is funny, but I encourage regular use of a body wash and the shower head.  I produce quite a bit of wax, more in one ear than another and after having to have it medically removed I notice my right ear starts to clog, and the L/R balance starts to shift if I do not very regularly include aural irrigation as part of my routine.

You're getting pretty close to the "TMI" line for me, Erik. ;-)

I have a Manley Stingray II, which has a REC OUT / LOOP IN capability. Thinking of adding a Schiit Loki to tweak tone, especially for low volume night listening. At normal volumes, system seems right on - but who knows. Maybe the Loki would improve things overall. It’s cheap and easily defeatable. Thoughts?

I have a Manley Stingray II, which has a REC OUT / LOOP IN capability. Thinking of adding a Schiit Loki to tweak tone, especially for low volume night listening.

Some reviewers have tried the $149 Loki thinking they would just buy/return just to test it, and ended up keeping it. While it might not make sense for an ultra high-end $ transparent system, it could be a great solution for a mid-fi, secondary, or den room system. SG did a review on it too, video: https://youtu.be/94Nr6JR_Whg

You're getting pretty close to the "TMI" line for me, Erik. ;-)

@hilde45

I feel like it is important my fans get a real sense of who I am.  Also, I smell like lavender.

I asked a local dealer about the Loki; he has a couple dozen older equalizers for sale. He pointed at a shelf filled with them and wondered why anyone would need to buy a new, 4 dial equalizer, when they could easily get 5, 10, 30 band equalizers on the used market. 

Is there a reason this one is so popular? Is it the only one out there that's new, cheap, cute? Or is there something about the technology in this little box?

A quiet EQ with carefully selected parts is better than at least half of the old school EQ's.  Especially the analog pro Behringers for instance. 

Noisy, cheap parts for the most part.  Not all were the same, but hey, if you could get a Cello... that would work. :)

I’ve had older multi-band equalizers. All degraded the SQ of high-mid to high end systems. The hope is that the Loki will essentially be transparent (although it does add either one or 2 ICs into the signal circuit). At $150, and easily bypassed, it’s worth a try for someone who has the funds. Also the simplicity of having only 4 bands seems like an advantage.

I like the simplicity. Just hard to see how they made it so well for $150. But that's what people say about *all* their stuff, I take it.

@ decooney

What preamp with tone controls did your friend get?

"A good friend and total tube nut with several custom built boutique tube preamps recently picked up a nice tube preamp with quality tone controls.  He absolutely loves it.  He uses it for (-1) tuning of high frequencies (mainly for streamed content) when listening to older/bad recordings of tracks he enjoys listening to.  Says it expanded his listening library. "can listen to anything now".  

Now it's his favorite preamp in his tube preamp collection."

@cscrutinizer
As I recall Holger’s Erhard Audio "Aretha" 6SL7 based preamp with tone controls. Off the top of my head don’t remember if it has the tone defeat or loudness switch options or not, or if those were available when he ordered it a few years ago I think it was. He’s swapped out the coupling caps to try a few others to test, and the stock Mundorfs were fine too he indicated http://www.erhard-audio.com/Aretha.html

+1 tvad. I agree that the best way to use a tone control is via a tape loop or if one has a pre or integrated with a fixed output to run from the fixed output to line level input. 

@mesch , tvad -- I'm sorry I'm not quite following.

If one was thinking about separates, are you saying the best way is to insert the tone control *between* the preamp and the amp?

Preamp ----> tone control ----> amp ?

Rather than:

Source ----> tone control ----> preamp ?

And for an integrated, I'm not sure I understand. Sorry.

@ decooney

Thanks, decooney. I'm looking for a tube pre and am considering the Aretha and Don Sachs. I've read only a few, not too descriptive, but positive posts about the Aretha. The Sachs has had all rave reviews. I would have Don add a tape loop for a Loki or other tone control.

@cscrutinizer, 
Thanks, decooney. I'm looking for a tube pre and am considering the Aretha and Don Sachs. I've read only a few, not too descriptive, but positive posts about the Aretha. The Sachs has had all rave reviews. I would have Don add a tape loop for a Loki or other tone control.

cscrutinizer,
I'm not sure if you noticed the option-upgrade selection and the tone defeat feature which is kinda neat, and how the optional loudness function is actually invoked is kinda throw-back interesting.  If you could completely defeat those functions out of the signal path I'm assuming you'd have a purist grade preamp too, if that's the case.

He's compared it to his own Shindo and Dennis Had Inspire preamps too, which he enjoys, yet this is the one preamp he ends up using particularly since moving away from vinyl to R2R Ladder DACs and lossless streamed content, low wattage amps, and high-efficiency speakers which tend to reveal a lot with his main system, fwiw. 

The Loki is absolutely appropriate for a "high end" system...it's the cleanest and quietest EQ I've come across in decades of home audio and pro audio experience, and although I use it rarely, generally to spruce up older vinyl, it's an amazing thing. I "EQ" my system by sometimes adjusting my subs here and there and the Loki isn't in the system at all until needed simply to keep cable runs shorter (I put it between my preamp and amp...no loop available)...Don't fear the Loki...

The disadvantage of using the tape loop circuit (vs preamp/amp or source) is that there will be 2 extra sets of interconnects vs. one extra set. You may spend more on the ICs than the Loki, and have more cable degradation.

At what point do you go for tone controls? 

When you don't like what you are hearing.

As it has been said there are no laws that dictate how you have to listen to music. You are not going to be arrested, tortured, killed or thrown in jail  for using tone controls or room treatments or power conditioners or whatever. The only one you have to please is yourself and maybe your spouse or S.O. Anybody else's opinion not only doesn't matter it shouldn't matter. If using tone controls makes you happy use them, if not using tone controls makes you happy don't use them, but don't let anybody tell you one way is correct and the other way is wrong.

I asked a local dealer about the Loki; he has a couple dozen older equalizers for sale. He pointed at a shelf filled with them and wondered why anyone would need to buy a new, 4 dial equalizer, when they could easily get 5, 10, 30 band equalizers on the used market.

A quiet EQ with carefully selected parts is better than at least half of the old school EQ's. Especially the analog pro Behringers for instance.  

Eirk is correct about Behringer. They are to be avoided.

If you were interested in going the analogue 1/3 octave (30 band) e.q. route, you will want to look into Klark-Teknik. The DN360 has been the industry standard in professional music reproduction for decades and can be found used on ebay very economically. Other brands that could be considered alternatives would be BSS and XTA with an honorable mention going to Rane.

The thing about a 1/3 octave e.q. is that it takes a little practice to know which fader to adjust to make the change you want. A better way to look at a 1/3 octave e.q. would be to use it as electronic room treatment.  You would tune you system with the e.q. to your room where as with room treatment you are tuning the room to your system. Ideally if you are not opposed to tone control you would use both. Of course a tuned system nor a tuned room will completely fix those bad recordings so using the Schiit Loki at this point could be a very effective solution.

Preamp ----> tone control ----> amp ?

This is the best way to insert an external tone control. This is very easily done if you have separates.

And for an integrated, I'm not sure I understand.

In order to use external tone controls with an Integrated, the integrated would have to have either a preamp out and in connectors or a tape loop out and in connectors. This will effectively give you the connection as above. Preamp-Tone Control-Amp

Tone controls, room treatments, power conditioners, interconnects, etc. etc. etc. are just tools that are at your disposal to use in your quest to the holy grail of sound reproduction that you desire, if you want to. Nothing more, nothing less. I recommend using whatever makes you happy. 

I personally use tone controls to boost the bass at lower volumes and boost the treble a bit.

Reasons:

1) For the treble, because of our age, we lose hearing at higher frequencies.  Anyone who denies this must come from another planet.  So, it compensates for my loss of hearing at higher frequencies.

2) For the bass, the human ear does NOT have a flat response like the output from an amplifier.  Far from it.  At low volumes, bass is not as hearable as it would be at higher volumes.  It is just the way our physiology is.  In the 70s that is why the "loudness" option was on the devices.  I wish they would bring that button back.

So, my advice to the audiophiles who convince themselves adamantly that their hearing response is a perfect horizontal straight line, I suggest making an appointment with a hearing specialist to bring you down to the real world.

Thanks for the illumination, all!

Insertion of EQ between pre and amp allows use for all sources.

In an all digital system, where the DAC is used as the hub for more than one source  the EQ can be inserted between DAC and pre.

The Loki is a quality piece, at a price that allows one to explore the use of EQ without distracting much from funds that might be allocated elsewhere. Does require the cost of another pair of interconnects however. 

@mesch Thanks! Yes, interconnects...oy.

I find the anti-tone control fanatics to be the modern day equivalent of corset wearers. Rigid adherence to an aesthetic without much practical benefit

. LOL, I agree Eric.

Pictures of me in a corset are strictly fake news.