Really. And your evidence for this is....?
Things that make you go, "Hmmmmm...."
the Muse was about $10k new years ago, I paid $650 for it on Audiogon
What CD player can I buy that will hold its value and not be near worthless in anything more than a few years?
New or used.
59 responses Add your response
What does the OP expect in terms of return? All gear depreciates over time. CDPs are more prone to depreciation due to concerns about the laser. How long does he expect to use the piece before selling it ? Does he expect to own it for one year? Would a 50% rate of return be reasonable? He criticizes other posters in this thread for not answering his question, but unless I missed it I have not seen what his expectations are. IMO the resale value of CD is unrelated to sonic value. To be fair to the OP, he has said that Sonics are not his only criterion. Look at Oppo players. I own two them myself, but the present prices that they fetch are ridiculous and unrelated to their quality. The McIntosh and Esoteric recommendations are good ones for the OP. People pay a premium for the Pride Of Ownership factor for those brands |
Miller - I’ve personally like and have all forms of front ends. Tape, Vinyl, CD, and computer/DAC. All have there pluses, and minuses. To me nothing wrong with having a CD player. I’ve got cases where any one of these formats might have the winning version of the song that’s the version most enjoyable. (to me) Halving said that, In general, I find myself being drawn into the music more, and having silly late night sessions when it’s the Vinyl and the Tape rig being used. I can really appreciate the digital side and the benefits it provides, particularly convenience. There is something very enjoyable and palpable from the Analog side. For spinners, In one system I have an Oppo 95, and in two other systems I have Esoteric DV 60 DVD/CD/SACD player. The only plus for me with the Oppo is it plays Blue Rays and as nice as it is, it pales to the Esoteric from a SQ point of view. My experience is, buy a used player and although you will lose some value, it’s not much compared to new. They are still serviced at the Head Office in California. With all the folks dumping collections of CDs in droves, let them. You can buy a used 2000 piece CD collection for the price of a mid-range MC cartridge. 7 years ago I bought the first DV 60 for $2200. (+$5000 when new) Last year I added another DV 60 at $1200. While the 1st one did depreciate, compare that depreciation to a new Cartridge, or DAC, you can lose a lot more. i really appreciate SACD, and particularly SHM-SACDs, the latter are extraordinarily musical and engaging. For example the Rolling Stones catalogue. Suppose you don’t have an early 1st press of Beggars Banquet. The Red book is poor at best, the SACD is nice, and the SHM-SACD is very enjoyable, even when compared to good vinyl samples. All the best, no matter where you place your bet. |
interesting thought. I have an Aesthetix Romulus eclipse. With tubes, I get a sound that’s pleasing to my ears, lush like vinyl with digital detail. In hindsight I might have gone with a good transport e. g a vintage Esoteric and a separate DAC in order to upgrade as digital technology improves (assuming it does). So at least I’m not replacing a solid transport in addition to the DAC section. To me, the thing CDs bring is convenience over vinyl. If I’m listening to digital, its 50/50 CDs vs streaming tidal. |
I have an EVS modified Oppo BDP-105D, an Ayre C5xe-MP and even an ancient Oppo DV-983H. I targeted and searched for all 3 of these models and had to wait quite a while until I found used ones on the market that weren't almost the same cost as new. I saw the ones that I thought were priced too high sell time and again. I think each of these are great examples of disc players that are worth the investment. Even the DV-983H is surprisingly good and both the Oppos play my digital downloads on USB drives. The BDP-105 can also stream and play hi-res digital files like FLAC and DSD, so even if the 'CD is dead' it will still be relevant. I've not had an opportunity to compare a modified Oppo to a stock model, so I can't say how much of an improvement Rick Schultz's efforts added; but I can say that it stands up very well with the much more costly Ayre, which has no USB ports. But the Ayre does do magic with redbooks. |
used transports are dirt cheap. ebay sold listings cd player \transport used than compare each to it's original price and evaluate the time factor .maybe you can make a little chart. it's a statistics question no answer will do. i have three examples:one transport lost 50% in 7 years the other 70% in 3 years another one only 20% in five years..... knock yourself out |
MC, The only CD player that I know of that has held and in fact increased in value is OPPO. The 203 was about $500 and is about $1000 and the the 205 is going as high as 4K. Most of the moving parts in the OPPO’s are off the shelf, so parts shouldn’t be an issue and I’d you have a DAC you like, the 203 might be something to think about. My two cents. JD |
I would throw my old CEC CD3100 into the ring IF I had a clue as to its original sticker. It’s kinda irrelevant what I paid for it as a non working example. And I have not seen another for sale so also a bit of a downer. But used as a transport it is excellent imho. Looks? Dull as dishwasher I am afraid so no brownie points there. |
Old cd players don’t appreciate in value because the technology is rapidly evolving. That old trope passes for "well said"? You mean like the way turntable technology rapidly evolved to direct drive and tangential tracking? Oh. Wait. What's that? Never happened? Course not. Because technology is NOT be-all end-all determinative. Implementation, the details and techniques by which the technology is actually put into use, THAT is what matters! This may unwittingly shed some light though. Could be the slavish pursuit of technology uber alles is part of what drives so many to keep buying the newest, forgetting that if there's one thing this thread proves its that hardly any of the newest turns out good enough to stand the test of time. Which, nothing new there either. Most new music is crap. Most new cars are crap. On and on. So of course most new CD players are gonna be crap. Which by the way, since people with a chip on their shoulder (and apparently an axe to grind, maybe even more than a little defensive to boot) keep bringing it up maybe better state for the record (heh) there are no exceptions to this rule and so most new turntables are crap too! So there! The OP is a hardcore vinyl lover, he have no intentions to buy any CD player, let alone a cool looking one.For the record, "hardcore" is an insult, not an argument. And "intentions to buy" is irrelevant. When I picked up Robert Harley's Complete Guide to High End Audio I had no intentions of ever buying a turntable. But he got me curious, I kept digging into it, and now have a fantastic rig. Honestly, pursuing a CD player now is a fool’s errand. Love the way you stuck that "now" in there. Good one. |
Obviously if you buy used there won't be anything like as significant a loss in value as buying new. I agree that CD players don't become collectors' pieces (and hence appreciate in value) except for the very first original Sony, for its curiosity value (certainly not its sonics). Besides the consideration of $$ it depends on what else you're trying to achieve. The Sony 5400?? Bryston BCD-1's (the original model) years later still command a reasonable price. Logical to think the BCD-3's may do too. |
“Music is not a competition. Criticizing digital doesn’t make your vinyl sound better or make digital sound bad. It just reflects poorly on you. Take the chip off your shoulder and enjoy the music. That’s what it’s about for many of us.” @tomcy6, well said! The OP is a hardcore vinyl lover, he have no intentions to buy any CD player, let alone a cool looking one. Honestly, pursuing a CD player now is a fool’s errand. I would look into investing into digital streaming and continue to enjoy both vinyl and unlimited access to online library of music. |
I am probably wasting my time but I’ll give this a try anyway. Old cd players don’t appreciate in value because the technology is rapidly evolving. The Air Force doesn’t buy F-4 Phantoms any more and people don’t seek out computers from the 80s because technology has improved significantly since those items were the state of the art. The format arguments also peaked about 10 or 15 years ago and most people have moved on. If you prefer vintage equipment, that’s great. I hope you get lots of enjoyment out of it. Your anti-digital posts are old and tiresome though. We’ve heard it all before. The days of vinyl superiority have passed. That doesn’t mean that you don’t enjoy it more. You obviously do and that’s great. Enjoy! However, I’m certain there are many digital based systems that sound better than your. turntable based system. I can’t prove it but there’s a really good chance that it’s true. Enjoying music is not a competition. Criticizing digital doesn’t make your vinyl sound better or make digital sound bad. It just reflects poorly on you. Take the chip off your shoulder and enjoy the music. That’s what it’s about for many of us. |
The Emotiva sounds like another legit, if decidedly mid-fi, example. Oh well, did not specify high end. That would all but guarantee none be found. Mark Levinson, of course. Even the remote is built like a Swiss bank vault. Never heard one I cared for but probably not going to zero any time soon so okay, we are up to three. Or maybe four. Leave it to Tim to find the Shanling, a CD player so cool looking it might even hold a candle to my record rig. Visually, I mean: big ol’ feet sticking out, three transformers jutting out in full art deco architectural glory, uber cool flip up top loader lid, and a full complement of four TUBES, complete with George Jetson-like tube rings! Crikey! Nothing about how or if they’re holding their value, but sexy enough to maybe not even matter. Astro! Fetch! https://www.techradar.com/reviews/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/cd-players-and-recorders/shanling-cd-... |
millercarbon, If you're looking fort an older CD player that sounds good, originally sold for $1K but sells used for about $100 and is as cool as a lava lamp, you may want to consider a Sony DVP-S7700. Check out how the front display moves down prior to the disc tray opening. Pretty high cool factor, especially with a lava lamp doin its thing nearby: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49ZceNYfQXs You probably won't even need to play anything to impress guests, just open and close the drawer a few times with the remote. Hours of fun! I still have mine although it's not used in my system anymore due to only playing DVDs and not playing Blu-rays. The Shanling CD-T2000 CD/SACD player is also a well reviewed and amazing looking player: https://www.techradar.com/reviews/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/cd-players-and-recorders/shanling-cd-... Tim |
If it's just a transport, I've suggested this for the price on other threads. https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/usa/en/products/hi-fi/cx-series-2/cxc Price/looks, it's a winner. Plug in a nice DAC, temporary escape from record madness. I have an older 550C with a Denafrips. Really nice on the cheap! I gave up on resale values for audio gear. If I have something I no longer want, sell at a price to make the new owner happy, and put something back on my pocket. I move on-too many records to look for in the bins. |
@millercabon what exactly are you on about? The Rega Saturn sells new for $3000 and can buy pristine used ones for like $1000. It’s not even that old. Well that’s the thing about writing. No matter how crystal clear, always someone seeing mud. Let me see if I can help. What I am "on about" is: "What CD player can I buy that will hold its value and not be near worthless in anything more than a few years?" For example the $10k going to $650. That’s what I am on about. Finding a CD player that won’t do that. The Saturn is the only candidate, so far. Now in your case I would have to ask, what are you on about? Again, what I am on about is crystal clear. You could even go back and read it. Its still there: "the classic older versions are better than the newer ones." Now, you may disagree. Like the guy who said they are crap. Fine. Disagree all you want. But follow the logic. If you can. It gets right down to the heart of the matter. Which is, that there might be some exceptions to the rule. Could be sound quality. Could be looks. Could be a combination of things so far not even mentioned. That’s what I am "on about"- seeing if there are exceptions. Finding the exceptional. Could you maybe help instead of hinder? |
I think several of the “troglodytes” decided to get defensive about the CD format in general. The OP question was if there was a transport that would hold its value, or potentially a vintage transport that would be highly regarded and appreciate from original MSRP. The answer to that is, as best I can tell, and overwhelming no. It’s not about your personal opinions on CDs. These are facts about the way capitalism works. Lots of used transports and tech gets old fast leaving a glut of used high end players due to upgrading and moving away from a declining format. |
@millercarbon Thank you for asking a good reasonable question. It never ceases to amaze me how people have to preach their biases instead of actually addressing the question asked. I have several thousand CDs including HDCDs and SACDs. I like the experience of playing them as discs. I realize that makes me a troglodyte but so be it. I currently own a PS Audio PerfectWave Mk II transport and DAC that I got for about 40% of retail after the DirectStream came out. It's worth 80% of what I paid for it. I also have a Krell CD 250/2 player that's worth 90+% of what I paid for it. My third player is a Marantz SA 8005 that I got used. I see them selling for around 90% of what I paid for mine several years ago. Here are some other recommendations: Vintage Krell or vintage Mark Levinson: If you buy a good condition model with original packaging for a fair price it will hold its value. Examples are ML 360s DAC with a 37 transport, and Krell KPS 20i. These units decode HDCDs (I have a couple hundred) which is not available in new players. You can still get transports for both players but it would be wise to acquire an extra when you get the player. Emotiva ERC-3: I bought one new and sold it for slightly more than I paid for it. This was a classic piece of gear that decodes HDCDs (Emotiva's new players don't do that). A pristine player with original packaging should hold near 100% of its value indefinitely. Any vintage player that received a Class A rating in Stereophile that you can buy on the used market - especially if the player broke new ground in some way and if it is from a major manufacturer still in business. I own several pieces of high end vintage gear from the mid 90's through the mid 2000's and the depreciation curve seems to have flattened out for all of my pieces. Besides holding its value this kind of gear has a special pride of ownership because it was so well made and because it was absolutely state of the art when it was new. I love this stuff and playing a file from my tablet just doesn't give me same satisfaction. |
Lots of over-the-top responses here, and tortured analogies. I'm using an Electrocompaniet EMC-1UP that is ~17 years old, and it still sounds excellent. I paid around $2300 for it used (it had also been modified) around 2006, and I see some advertised now for ~$1200 to 1500 (mostly in Europe). That's a far cry from going "to zero". Am I missing out on meaningfully better sound through "higher resolution" streaming files? I rather doubt it. Not suggesting that no difference can be heard, at least on some systems, but I have never sought perfection in this hobby, instead building very good, synergistic systems that suit whatever space I happen to be using. It is, of course, true that CD players all have weaknesses, and that parts will eventually fail. So yes, if one hopes to keep a good player working for a very long period of time, spare parts and those capable of doing repairs can be issues. But I find the implied assumption that streaming services will necessarily survive, or that the costs will remain reasonable, to be potentially naïve. Some of the objections are just plain silly. Does anyone really need access to "millions" of songs? Is it really such a chore to leave one's chair every 30-40 minutes and replace a CD? As for this: "There’s no benefit to playing CDs on a CD player anymore." it's simply not true. Owning a hard copy of digital media certainly can be an advantage. Although the analogy isn't fully taut, I own many film DVDs, and most have paid for themselves several times over already. Again, I appreciate that it's a different market, but many of the more esoteric films are not available on streaming services, and the DVDs have actually gone up in value over the years. Never forget that, even in the case of music, if you don't own it, you are largely at the mercy of those who do, both in terms of access and cost. |
I’m wary of used players in general because the transport is largely a mechanical device and can wear out or get sloppy. That’s been the weak link that led to the demise of both of my retired players - Adcom and Ah!. I briefly had a Rotel, but returned it for (you guessed it) transport issues. Using an Oppo now, and yes, I often stream ripped versions, but it’s always nice to have a hard copy. I like to read paper books, too. I’m not sure how playing direct from CD can sound better than streaming the same data, given comparable DACs, but obviously there is strong anecdotal evidence that it is possible. Don’t overlook the attraction of ceremony in playing music as well. I’ve never been able to get past the inherent noise of vinyl, but the inspection and cleaning before playing is enticing. While audio is primarily driven by what we hear, it is often enhanced by the other senses and rituals. I’m going to be sad when my CDs succumb to mold or material fatigue. Eventually, I’ll need to pony up for a robust transport that can go the distance. I hope there’s something nice available when I get around to it. |
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"Why??? It’s like saying I still have a buggy whip, so I want to keep a
horse around to use it. Seriously. When you can either load your CDs
onto a server and/or, better yet, just subscribe to a good music
subscription service (i.e. Qobuz, Tidal, etc.) and get virtually all the
music on your CDs plus millions of other songs as well for a few
dollars a month without leaving your chair, why would you cling to
playing a CD one at a time on a CD player?" I have thousands of CDs. Don't have time to load them all onto a server. I've already bought these CDs. Don't want to pay dollars per month to hear the same stuff that I've already bought. Good luck with your streaming. Hope your internet is robust. |
I admit I still have a lot of CDs. And I will always want something to play them. Why??? It’s like saying I still have a buggy whip, so I want to keep a horse around to use it. Seriously. When you can either load your CDs onto a server and/or, better yet, just subscribe to a good music subscription service (i.e. Qobuz, Tidal, etc.) and get virtually all the music on your CDs plus millions of other songs as well for a few dollars a month without leaving your chair, why would you cling to playing a CD one at a time on a CD player? There’s no benefit to playing CDs on a CD player anymore. It’s not like vinyl where you get a different experience for having to remove your arse from the chair to flip sides or change albums. Having to get up to change CDs gets you nothing, except inconvenience and maybe a little exercise. And subscribing to a music service will open your world to music you probably would’ve never heard. Think of it as having the world’s largest jukebox at your disposal for a few dollars per month. Imagine picking a genre, hitting shuffle, and entering a world of discovery. Or you can continue playing one CD of yours at a time. Just sayin’. |
Surprisingly, the Sony SCD 1 is still selling used at more than half its price when new. Looks good and built like a tank. Of course, it plays SACDs also -- does that disqualify it as a "CD player"? What about the Oppos? They do play CDs, but they are better used as Blu-ray players. They seem to have been priced up since the company got out of the business. I admit I still have a lot of CDs. And I will always want something to play them. |
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mickeyb: I’m a big fan of older rega CD players. The Saturn or Jupiter are built real well, look real cool and sound very good. I dig my Saturn and will never give it up. I run it through my tube dac toslink input and couldn’t be happier. You can get a used Saturn for a decent price and resell for probably 75% of what you paid for it. The millennials dig them a lot. Winner winner chicken dinner! Okay. Finally! Immediately of course someone has to diss the one and only legit example of what I've been asking for, a CD player that won't go straight to zero within years of ownership. That it took this long would seem to indicate, if I may be logical about it for a moment, that such are rare. Or at least not well known. The Saturn has a following, and its been around a long time. The posts here are almost 10 years old! http://www.audioreview.com/product/digital-sources/cd-players/rega/saturn.html Best of all- actually is a tie between it looks kinda cool, or at least not a boring box like most, and comes with the beautiful story line that the classic older versions are better than the newer ones. So that's one. Surely there must be at least one more out there somewhere? I mean, to find a 30+ year old car (with over 200k miles on it) worth more than it sold for new I need go no further than the other side of my kitchen and look into the garage. Surely Audiogon global reach can find more than one non-worthless CD player. Now that we know what we're looking for.... PS- "Your logic is so asinine" the word you were looking for mayoradamwest is, "airtight." |
Accuphase ? I have a 20 year old DP-55 cd player that went for 4K, I paid 3K. The cd player was introduced in 1996 It was their entry level at the time. I see them used for 2K. seems like 50% of it’s value for a 23 year old cd player is pretty good. Seems to hold its value over time. Other Accuphase pieces seem to hold their value. Maybe because Accuphase is extremely well built lends to its value. Current entry cd player, I believe, goes for 6K. |
Here is my 2 cents. The best transport I have heard to date is the Audiomeca Mephisto II. Out of business with little parts around to repair it. Same goes for my top of the line (15 years ago) Metronome with separate power supply. Nothing new or older in my experience sounds as good. But again I did not buy them new and bought them used for a song. I am able to fix audio components but when parts are not to be found, you are out of luck. The new CEC TL5 is a great transport for around $1200 new. Hold its value, well no, nothing holds its value over time. The Rega is a good little transport. I have used int many times as a back up. Just did a comparison of the Saturn and and my old Metronome CDP as a transport (the Metronome is highly modified) a few days ago. The Rega has a dynamic alive sound but the Metronome plays music. Both wee used as transports through the same DAC. As for the CD versus streaming, CD's still sound better but I am still testing and experimenting all the time. Happy Listening. |
I’m a big fan of older rega CD players. The Saturn or Jupiter are built real well, look real cool and sound very good. I dig my Saturn and will never give it up. I run it through my tube dac toslink input and couldn’t be happier. You can get a used Saturn for a decent price and resell for probably 75% of what you paid for it. The millennials dig them a lot. |
Your logic is so asinine as to be laughable. Remind me which CRT TVs have stood the test of time? Laser disk players? Any computer from the 1990s? Any number of the millions of things that people thought would be collectible and aren’t. I mean, you’re making such a ridiculous claim that I kind of think it’s simply to troll. Very little of what was once new retains its value. Especially in less than 100 years. Technology moves forward and some people don’t. My grandfather still has a flip phone. Not sure that 10 year old flip phone is going to raise in value at any point until archeologists 1000 years from now dig it up from our garbage heaps. |
Okay, but a quick search would seem to show those are current production. ie, new. As in, not old. It would appear there are no CD players that after more than a few years do anything but plummet to near worthlessness. Okay. Will have to do for now, I guess. But still, hard to believe. I mean, even an old wind up watch, the lowliest Timex from the 1960's, even that is gonna be worth more than new today. Long as its not all beat up. Or Chrysler K-car. Hard to think of a bigger piece of junk than the Chrysler K-car. Yet they sell today for more than new. I actually won an on-line debate one time saying every car ever made, will begin appreciating in value at about 15-20 years, provided only its kept in good running condition. I won when the one car everyone thought would prove me wrong was found on-line selling for more than new- a Chrylser K-car. Still, hard to believe. I mean, a whole industry, huge market segment, millions of ardent enthusiastic owners, all for something turns out to be worthless compared even to a Chrysler K-car? |
Ah, yes, the original question. Well, my Marantz Reference SA-15S2b SACD player is getting on in years but still sounds wonderful. A used one can be considered. Also, the newer ones, like the SA-10 have been discussed here as well. Then there's the new Technics SL-G700 SACD/network player but I'd need to read some reviews or know where I could audition one before committing. Also, the Hegel Mohican is a CD only player that reviewers like but it's up there with the Marantz Reference line in cost, so again, I'd audition one before deciding. The reviews are out there as well as those here who've decided to stick it out with CDs, so a perusal of the forums can entertain you for most of the day. All the best, Nonoise |
Clearly a lot of defensive responses and reading into instead of just, you know, reading. Still looking for an example of a CD player that for whatever reason has stood the test of time. As determined by the one thing that matters, willingness to open up the pocketbook and pay money for it. Believe me, I know good and well there are people willing to be advertised and marketed and psyched into buying the latest new whatever. Literally: whatever. Not asking about that. Asking what, if anything, is there that people still find value in, many years later. Just to be clear, does not have to be sound quality. Maybe it just looks cool. Or classy. So could be build quality. Or materials. Who knows, maybe a nice solid wood case. Or carbon fiber. Gold. Diamonds. Whatever. Not the point. Anything, anything whatsoever. Because, as it stands now, you guys are making me think no CD player ever made is even as good as my 30 year old lava lamp. Which people even just last night thought was pretty cool. This is the digital forum. No one has anything positive to say? There really is no there there? |
Not "the CD is dead" argument again, please. Read any review on CDPs and CDTs and they’re just as good as the best "Hi Rez" steaming and network gear out there, if not better than most of it. What some consider good enough for them wouldn’t pass the smell test for someone with a decent CD set up. I’m one of them. I haven’t heard everything or the latest and greatest, but I’ll point it out, again, that the best PC sound I heard at a show was at the MSB suite. I said it was the best streaming digital I’ve ever heard. It was then that Vince Galbo pointed out to me that I was listening to a CD playing, not music streaming. This is not to say that I'll never go there, but I don't see me doing it anytime soon. All the best, Nonoise |
Hello millercarbon, I just bought a Lumin D2 streamer paired with an 18 TB NAS that now contains about 20,000 albums, about a third are CD quality and the rest are hi-res ranging from 24 bit/96 kHz FLAC to 1 bit DSD WAV files. I use an Ipad, with all components connected to my wi-fi, to view and select exact albums or tracks to play. It's ultra convenient and the sound quality is excellent. I'm also able to stream Tidal through the Lumin D2 which sounds very good. I'm suggesting you might want to consider investing in a similar source system that benefits from the latest technology rather than an older CD player with older technology that likely provides a lower degree of sound quality as well as being less convenient. Later, Tim |
