Thin Line Between Critique and Courtrooms: A Dialogue on the Recent Audiophile Drama

I just replied...

but in your urge to insult people you seems you need the last word...

This was my answer :

"I am not a perfect human being too  because i answered you ... 😊"

now we go back to the matter of the thread...

Enjoy the evening ...

So many enjoying the destruction of someone's livelihood. The non creators destroying those that create. All over a youtuber? Look not a fan of the speaker designs but you all are just cruel.

Unfortunately I didn’t get to read the review in question before it went down, but from what I gather the review itself wasn’t all that negative and the measurements were the main source of the problem. Is that about right?

I only received two products for review over 17 years that didn’t sound at least mostly good, and as I’ve mentioned before if a product has risen to the level of getting a review it’s pretty much already been vetted as being a very promising performer, which is mostly why you don’t read many outright negative reviews. One of the subpar products did some good things but were over overshadowed by a significant limitation elsewhere, so I simply pointed out the good and less good without outright trashing the product, but the point was made (and thankfully I wasn’t sued). In the other case it was an otherwise well-reviewed speaker from a well-known manufacturer that was likewise significantly flawed IMO, and I even had an audiophile buddy come over and he felt the exact same way. I contacted the company thinking maybe they were out of spec or damaged, and the company responded that they’d redesigned the driver and had me send the review pair back. I never received the redesigned speaker back for review and still don’t know if the review pair was defective or what, but I’m glad I never had to write that review. Point is, there are ways to handle these things with some simple and respectful communication both ways without either possibly wrongly trashing a product or threatening a reviewer with legal action. This situation with Tekton seems to have been mishandled on multiple levels, and as someone mentioned earlier this kind of thing is rare I think because most people in the industry are thankfully respectful and reasonable despite perhaps a few bad apples. That’s been my experience anyway and FWIW.

Interesting how the majority of folks have focused upon the lawsuit and the review details. What stands out to me is Tekton Man’s improper responses to handling the review and any criticism.  We’ve seen on forums as well.   If you can’t put your big boy pants on and accept criticism professionally don’t engage or be in this profession.  Audiophiles are harsh critics.

The idea that a product, if it receives a poor review, should be sent back to the manufacturer and the negative review erased, is profoundly troubling. It raises the question: what kind of environment are we creating when we’re only exposed to endorsements that persuade us to make a purchase, while critiques that could save us from an expensive mistake are concealed? All this, seemingly to protect (whitewash?) a company’s image? What about the public, the customers? Don’t we matter? And what about the reputation of the rag publishing the reviews?

It’s baffling and strikes me as eerily Orwellian.

@rooze Exactly. It seems some want it only their way.

This especially true since prices in the audio world are going up faster than Elon Musk's rockets. 

Your reply is part of the issue. A good reviewer is there to give information to their audience, not stroke the egos of the manufacturers. That was the way IT USED to be. 

I will use a car review as an example. How would you deal with a review like this?

Her Name Is Rio… And She’s Crap | The Truth About Cars

I remember reading this after I had a Rio as a rental - I totally agreed with it.

How can products improve if no one is there to give honest opinions about them?

@botrytis My reply is simply borne out of experience. I agree with the sentence after that comment; its exactly what I said in my post prior.

Reviewers can get away with things like that in the car industry. Its not likely to bring down the company. A sour review in high end audio can and has. Now the issue isn't whether products will improve or not, its whether the negative review is honest. I listed a number of reasons that I've seen and/or experienced why they may not be.

So if a negative review that is not honest takes out a company that didn't deserve it, is that fair? Its an easy thing for a reviewer to avoid by simply never talking about that product. That way the public doesn't find out about it; problem solved.

The point is, I haven’t seen a negative review of ANY audio product in the press in a long time. It is usually glowing words.

Going to ask an honest question, with a experience of mine from another consumer product. I worked for a whiskey producer, who I won’t name, and before I was working there, they would buy bulk whiskey from a bulk manufacturer. They would bottle it and it said on the bottle, it was not made there, but said the recipe was a family recipe. A reviewer found out and pointed out it was no different than others from the large manufacturer. The company and founder sued to get the reviewer to remove the negative review. So, you are saying that the reviewer was not honest?

I understand protecting a company but it is so over the top now. Understand, I think it is this attitude of the audio companies that are turning people off.

Put shoes on of a consumer, first and look at it this from the outside.

I think you are disingenuous at best. Would you want Boeing/Airbus to do what your saying? I could go on. Look at the pickle Boeing is in now...

@johnk ,

You've missed the point completely, I'm afraid.

easy decision to boycott Tekton, full stop....looks like Audioholics

has already done so....good for them

litigation: the process of taking legal action.

One doesn't get to redefine accepted definitions to suit one's needs. Doing that in the real world does lead to naturally understandable misunderstandings as people tend to take one at one's word.

Citing lots of positive press doesn't negate the occasional negative ones.

In the end Eric's still out over his skis. 

All the best,
Nonoise

Well said nonoise. 

As usual, @atmasphere  has some very viable points. Also consider lively debates  between those who believe their ears and those who believe the measurements and how it aligns with the fact that Tekton questioned their measurements. That's just not allowed in modern audiophilia. I have no wager on either horse in this race but I do understand the need for clicks for online reviewers. Since its a he said, she said, there are a bunch here who are working off very little real info except hearsay and are ready to throw Tekton under the bus as the bad guy. maybe he is. But maybe he isn't. We don't really know. But it doesn't stop the character assassination. Who will be next?

artemus_5    

+10 😊

+1 @nonoise ,

There is but a single, precise definition for litigation. There is no interpretation.

This Tekton video is nothing more than after the fact attempted damage control.

A lame attempt at that.

Pull that horse sheet video off the site...this owner is burying his company in front of our own eyes,I thought I had enough of the Tekton nonsense a year or so ago but its now at an all time low,,Pretty easy to be  hater!

....out of popcorn, but getting the concept of courtrooms becoming even more wound up in minutiae and the subtlety of perceptions, measured or perceived IRL...

....not surprising, given the daily dilatants dirge dunk on the news....

....the 'how low can things go' is an easy answer:

No Bottom to the Universe.

Define Surreal

@deep_333 ,

Your middle school had a barnyard??

All we had were swings.

People on audio forums trying to understand how litigation works. It would be hilarious if it wasn’t pathetic. To be honest and pair, this situation does not affect me, so why should it matter to me? It feels like church gossip. It’s been pointed out, time and time again, audio reviews are often far to positive to the manufacturers and designers (which buyers should be wary of) and now all this about a negative review? Why not just sort out the good and bad reviews, listen for one’s self and make an informed decision? BTW anyone (at least in the USA has the right to seek legal action for any number of things). Is this not correct?

A little historical context:

Bose vs. Consumers Union

my 2 cents to Tekton: stop posting, talking, messaging, communicating about it.

It will go away - make speakers not war

+10

@deep_333 

Few "goofs who think they know it all" invest in the same $100k+ Klippel NFS that brands like KEF and Magico use to measure and refine these designs.  Erin @ Erin's Audio Corner has used that scanner, which he invested in,  to produce dozens of speaker measurements on gear ranging from $100 entries of entry-level budget active speakers up to KEF Blades 2 Metas. Those, incidentally, came out to be within known margins of error for the measurements KEF produced in their white paper.  In some circles, he's held in significantly higher regard than the ASR crowd because his reviews start with subjective opinions, then move to objective measurements, and finally align those with his subjective impressions.  Occasionally he will also spend time highlighting and discussing where they do not.  Often, the latter are cases of "we see an irregularity in the FR graph, but I didn't pick up on it in my listening sessions like I did some other areas."  Also, unlike ASR, he acknowledges the existence of subjective listening preferences and highlights what his personal ones are and how they can be visually identified in the measurements. 

The complaint lodged against Erin was not that he used the equipment incorrectly, but that the speaker feet, which were not included with the speakers donated, weren't installed on the speaker when it was measured. That the inserts for those feet were completely drilled through cabinet walls and into the body itself is a separate discussion aside. Multiple individuals I know of in the speaker design either speak disparagingly of this approach, or at best identify to likely be a cost-cutting measure. They make clear it is not standard practice to introduce additional opportunities for air to exit the cabinet. Per them, the common practice is to either not breach the cabinet wall at all, or, if it's necessary from the length of the mounting hardware, to do so in positions that put them into internal bracing points for the cabinet so the cabinet wall integrity is maintained with or without the feet inserted. I strongly suspect that when he publishes the revised data on those Tektons, measured with the feet installed as Eric demanded, you'll see that the minor flaws he highlighted in his largely positive original review still exist in the revised measurements. 

Whether or not those matters highlighted in Erin's impact your enjoyment of the speakers is a matter of subjective opinion. Eric's ego-driven, impulsive overreaction to those minor issues being called out is another matter entirely. Threatening to initiate litigation over this, Eric's tapdancing damage-control BS about how,"I will begin litigation first thing in the morning if the review isn't pulled" (his exact words in the written communication) didn't mean suing Erin aside, this is a PR disaster of the first order for Tekton, and one entirely of Eric's own making.

make speakers not war

Sage advice!

@grislybutter +1.

He's his own worst enemy.

since Erin's character has been a subject here, let me contribute. When I finished my speaker web site (a hobby and nothing more) I reached out to about 6 hifi/audiophile youtubers to ask if they had any feedback, would they used it for their research, etc. Nobody responded. I usually resend my emails once. Still no response. One had obviously reviewed it and used my lines from it in his next review - at least I knew he saw it. Erin was the 7th, I found his channel a few weeks later. He responded the same day, and gave me a lot of feedback, links and a contact I was happy to use. I have no idea who he is, where he is, I watched about 12 of his videos and enjoyed them all, and I sure know he is different, not a egoistic type A media star but a nerd with a big heart. I don't want to mention names of the ones who ignored me, but none of their reviews amount much beyond entertainment whereas Erin's reviews aim and reach much higher.

It's unfortunate that when someone is objective, he gets attacked, whereas all the wishy-washy, full of disclaimers, shiny, useless reviews live happily ever after.

@viridian from what I read, your point regarding how ASR acquires things to test is correct. I would only add that pretty much every review on ASR by the main honcho at least does identify the source of the item tested and disclaimers regarding review results based on uncertainties are also commonly cited. I find the reviews to be quite fair and valuable accordingly. Some reviews come out mostly rosy but seldom completely and others not so much, at all price points . It’s an imperfect process always to some degree but what isn’t? It’s just another source of diverse info that one can synthesize into their buying decisions that may not be available at all otherwise. No concrete information to inform buying decisions other than marketing literature is the worst case scenario. THe more information put forth in good faith, the better.

@atmasphere

Generally speaking, a negative review (not one that is positive with a few minor beefs) should be looked upon as unethical.

I must say, as someone who spent decades in the journalism business, for both big and small news organizations, this is pretty much 180-degree opposite to fundamental journalist ethics.

A journalist’s responsibility is first and foremost to provide true information to the readers, and in the case of the sort of consumer journalism that product reviewing is, where you’re helping readers make informed decisions, providing information about less than good product is crucial.

Of course, journalists have a responsibility to be fair with and about the subjects of their reviews. But their responsibility is not to protect the reputation of the manufacturer who delivers a subpar product by killing the negative review and returning the product to the manufacturer. That not only makes the journalist an agent of the manufacturer essentially but also erodes the publication’s credibility with readers, who are the customers you have responsibility to. It’s absolutely corrosive to journalism ethics and effectiveness.

Any of the reasons of competency offered as reasons to assume a bad review is being offered unethically or with ulterior motivation could equally apply to good reviews. There’s no reason to assume that one is any more competently or ethically delivered than the other.

Which is not to suggest that the audio press has ever been a bastion of journalistic standards -- there’s plenty that erodes reader confidence in the audio press: long term equipment loans, extremely cozy manufacturer and retailer relationships with journalists and editors -- but among those things, this unwillingness to publish bad reviews and the hermetic belief of where ones responsibility lies that suggests that the proper thing to do when encountering a bad product is not to inform the public but keep it from the public and inform the manufacturer instead, is a dozy.

The best answer to mediocre journalism, technical incompetence and the inevitable tensions between the editorial and business sides of the house (especially in enthusiast and trade publishing where your sources and your advertisers are often from the same community), isn’t just to throw one’s hand up and say, fine, let’s just publish puff pieces.

@ezwind 

Again, I'm not an expert but I'm not sure a finding of malice would be necessary. As I understand from a bit of googling, malice is required for a defamation finding against a public figures or officials.

Companies offering goods and services for sale have often been found by courts to be limited-purpose public figures in the context of defamation.  In this case there's a pretty closely on point precedent in the Bose v. Consumer Reports case the Supreme Court decided 40+ years ago, in which Bose was treated as a public figure. I don't think Bose even disputed the notion that it was a limited-purpose public figure in that case, IIRC.

@chervokas 

+10  Well said.

Didn't miss the point at all this is just about tearing down Tekton. Sure they messed this up. But its not like they are selling defective products or taking folks money Tekton complained about what they perceived as an inaccuracy in testing. And Tekton worded there response in a legally threating way and that was wrong. But to destroy all those folks work because a few audio geeks are upset is just cruel. 

People like scapegoating and they like to hate...

I remember the days where someone here was very much hated...

I dont mind if the reason to hate were good or bad...

I dont hate anybody , but i reacted to posts for sure ... 😁

I understand the two sides here and i sympathize with the two sides...

All is rarely black or white about anybody nor about any matter ...

In the meantime there is an acoustic revolution and nobody pay attention... All eyes are on our dearest chosen scapegoat...😊

Given the diverse viewpoints expressed, from the ethical considerations underscored by @mapman insights on the value of diverse information, to the cautionary tale of potential litigation chilling honest dialogue as highlighted by others, we're prompted to ask: How can we, as a community, nurture a culture where honest reviews are both valued and integral to the audio world's evolution, and where criticism serves as a bridge to understanding and enhancement rather than a precursor to confrontation? 

@johnk the problem is that it's Tekton's own doing, not upset audio geeks'. He keeps digging in, keeps arguing, coming up with awkward excuses (litigation is two lawyers having a friendly talk) and keeps this issue alive instead of just walking away from the mic. He himself blew it up. Erin didn't, the forums and other reviewers didn't, it burns everyone. An awkward lose-lose situation that nobody enjoys talking about. Tekton speakers are good value, some people love it, some don't, that's what should matter. Nobody should have ever learned about his personality. 

Learned about his personality years ago on some now deleted threads where he among other things threatened to sue fellow members for 'slander'.

So, @johnk ,

It isn't about tearing down Tekton. Its about calling out arrogant bullies who, after yet more threats of litigation against someone and the ensuing avalanche of negative press it brought, now tries to sugarcoat what he originally did by playing the misunderstood good guy.

I couldn't care less about the company. I've never disparaged the sound of a Tekton speaker in my life. It's bullies I have no tolerance for.

You seem a kind, decent fellow whose heart is in the right place. The world needs more people like you.

i do not see it exactly from the same perspective but i cannot object anything about  thecarpathian opinion ..

😊

Learned about his personality years ago on some now deleted threads where he among other things threatened to sue fellow members for 'slander'.

So, @johnk ,

It isn't about tearing down Tekton. Its about calling out arrogant bullies who, after yet more threats of litigation against someone and the ensuing avalanche of negative press it brought, now tries to sugarcoat what he originally did by playing the misunderstood good guy.

I couldn't care less about the company. I've never disparaged the sound of a Tekton speaker in my life. It's bullies I have no tolerance for.

You seem a kind, decent fellow whose heart is in the right place. The world needs more people like you.

Ca va, Mon ami!

J'espere que vous allez bien.

Je d'evrais arreter maintenant!

Mais je n'aime pas intimidateurs. J'ai toujours ete victime d'intimidation lorsque j'etais.

Je comprends votre point de vue.

Mais bullying prend de nombreuses formes.

The vert pour moi ce soir, Mon ami.

Bonne nuit!

Those French have a different word for everything!

How ridiculous would this sound if we were talking about a food review at a restaurant? The chef going online and arguing with food reviewers about how he makes his apple pie. We’ve all seen negative restaurant reviews before and sometimes the restaurant will comment and apologize for the service, food or whatever and try to redeem themselves---not argue with them. Oh well, it is what it is--I’m afraid the damage is done. Maybe a call to a good public relations agency would be a good idea.

We even have many different perspectives in mind for every word!

The greatest linguist in the world is a french speaking one. It is not by random. 😉

Those French have a different word for everything!

@soix ,

Going ​​​​​​way back for that Steve Martin line!😆

I've read through the ASR stuff on this matter and would like to point out that the site's review of the Mini Lore speaker wasn't really bad or negative -- it was basically "so-so" which isn't a surprise for a company's lowest-end model. 

Tekton's initial defense was that they design their speakers for their subjective sound characteristics, not measurements.  Had they only left it at that!  That's a perfectly legitimate approach.  Lots of well-known and popular audio gear doesn't score in the top ranges of ASR's "numbers" approach to evaluation and it doesn't hurt the company and their customers remain perfectly happy.  ASR fan-boys were probably never much of a market for Tekton to start with.

The issue was Tekton's over-the-top response -- complaining about the test results being wrong but refusing to provide any evidence of their own. And the threat of litigation didn't play well either.  I can't imagine a worse way for a manufacturer to response to a so-so review than what's been done here.  The way they've handled things will probably chase off far more prospective buyers than anything the review had to say.