Hmm .. as someone who has tried -a few DAC’s hugo2 . Lumin D2 ,Denafrips And now have a Holo Audio May KTE .. and have a pretty nice treated room .. RooN on a NimitraS. ..Aries G2.1 . HOLO May KTE .. Modright KWH225i Integrated Hybrid Amp.. .. with Almost all components Upgraded by Dan Wright to anything he wanted .. .and Boenicke W8se+ speakers ... I can say .. Chord ..has a flavor ,, .Denafrips.. .Holo Audio has one My next flavor is a used mola Mola .. ..
The sound quality from DACs - is it all the same?
I've been talking to my cousin brother about sound quality. He is a self-proclaimed expert audiophile. He says that Audio Science Review has all of the answers I will need regarding audio products.
In particular, he says an inexpensive DAC from any Chinese company will do better than the expensive stuff. He says fancy audio gear is a waste of money because the data is already bit-perfect. All DAC chips sound the same. Am I being mislead?
He also said that any DAC over $400 is a waste of money. Convincing marketing is at play here, he says.
He currently owns a Topping L30 headphone amplifier and D30 Pro DAC. He uses Sennheiser HD 569 headphones to listen to music. I'm not sure what to think of them. I will report my findings after listening one day! (likely soon, once I get some free time)
- Jack
232 responses Add your response
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Oh my god, it's you again. Don't waste your breath on this person. I remember you from the Esoteric bashing, headphones as the preferred method of amplifier auditioning thread from a few weeks back attempting to find someone who agrees with you. Your back with the same question in a different package. What are you really here for, just to argue for the sake of argument?
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Thank you all for so much insight! My understanding of "high end audio" is improving.
I have been watching a lot of videos from the ASR YouTube channel. Amir seems to be very honest about products. For example, there was one pair of headphones that measured really well, and he reviewed it even though it was very costly. So he’s not against high cost audio products. That’s for sure. I’ve also watched some Audioholics videos with their president talking about audio gear, cables, etc. And I was thinking...here’s an example: You go to a car dealership to test a car. While driving it, you ask the salesperson how much horsepower and torque. Those are numbers (measurements) right? So if machines can measure what we need to know about vehicles (that are more complex with more parts than audio gear) then why does it seem that so many audiophiles are against audio measurments? I would also wager that audio companies/engineers who design the amplifiers, CD players. etc. also rely on the audio precision analyzer, or something that provides really accurate measurements - well beyond what we could ever know given our limited human perception. We as humans have poor hearing compared to other living things on earth. I honestly believe those who claim measurements don’t matter have hearing loss or extreme brand loyalty syndrome.
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Your cousin brother is mostly correct and ASR just reports the measurements - good or bad. We know what distortion is audible from measurements. If it doesn't pass that threshold then by definition it is inaudible. Measurements will show that. I don't know of any DACs today that have audible distortion. Almost all DACS use the same digital conversion chip. And the formula for analog conversion is also well-established. As a former software engineer I can tell you that conversions are always done by using a well-established formula. Otherwise, they're just plain wrong. There's no magic to it. However, some DAC makers purposefully make their DACs inaccurate. If you read the book Schiit Happened, Schiit actually tweaked their analog conversion programming after listening to the output through headphones, which is purely subjective. This shows up on measurements. Personally, I use an SMSL Sanskrit 10th MK II because it has the best measurements for the lowest price. |
A measure is not only a number interpreted on a dial , like reading a sound level for example.. It can be a specific measures related to the dimensions of a device , like the specific measures associated to an Helmholtz resonators for example and the way it affect the S.Q. for OUR EARS...(perimeter/volume/lenght ratioof the device and his neck) There is no electronic measure of imaging and soundstage, but there is ACOUSTIC/PSYCHO-ACOUSTIC MEASURES linked to the experience of imaging and soundstage in acoustic...Like the precise relation between the timing of the wavefronts coming from each speaker and their sound level intensity FOR EACH EAR...I use these OBJECTIVE facts to create imaging and soundstage at will... These measures are used in the headphone technology like the Smyth realizer for example... I use mechanical devices myself instead of electronical one after the Helmholtz method, who is the father of acoustic/psycho-acoustic...
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Please show me/us an example of these measures and how they are related to the soundstage, imaging, instrument separation, ... discussed here. Absolutely fascinating if these measures exist. |
While I feel the measurements over at ASR have some merit (e.g. if a product is grossly flawed, or measures horribly for its price point) the conclusions drawn solely on measurement numbers are deeply flawed. It's been said a million times-- measurements do NOT equate sound quality. One example of a bogus review on ASR would be when Amir measured the effect on tube rolling on an MHDT DAC. He found no difference in distortion numbers and concluded: This is one unit, one set of tubes, with irrelevant measurements (measuring distortion?). Also, how the hell could he jump to that conclusion with an N=1? Depending on the type of equipment, the circuit design the tubes are in, and the type and quality of tubes used, tube rolling obviously, and sometimes drastically results in sonic differences. It was that "review" that sealed the deal for me at ASR. There is NO real science there. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/tube-rolling-does-it-make-a-difference.28583/ |
These car comparison with gear high end versus lower costing gear make no sense... Why? Imagine that acoustic conditions are the "road".... The road is not less important than the gear... Then yes sometimes lower cost gear can beat a Ferrari if the terrain is prepared for it and not for the other... Acoustic rule over electronic design... Because we listen to the gear+room not the gear alone... Money alone cannot beat acoustic science...
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I am credulous toward people and lend them good faith... 😁😊 But you are right it is probably not a serious thread created by the OP BUT i am not a dupe because i answered seriously to a bait... Sometimes being wise is acting like we have not see the string behind the clothes...But staying silent is always the best politic... I am not as wise as i think i am either anyway... 😁😊 "Indeed".... |
I agree with many of the posts on this thread that different DAC's will sound different to some people and the best policy is to choose the one in your price range that sounds best to you providing you have an opportunity to compare different DAC's in the same setting. If you don't have an opportunity to audition the DAC's select a few with features you like in your price range and read a few different professional reviews on each DAC to see if that helps with your selection. I have an onboard DAC in my Preamplifier and an onboard DAC in a CD Transport and I can stream music from a separate Streamer through both devices and can say they both sound good but they definitely sound different. To my ears I prefer the matchup of the Streamer with the DAC in the Preamp. For CD's I prefer the sound of the DAC in the CD Transport possibly because it was designed to work as a system. We all hear things differently.
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Even if you think the sound differences are subtle in your system, consider basing your choice on how easy it is to get service if something goes wrong, whether or not the power cord is detachable IEC without a wall wart, etc. Even those two parameters might cause you to rule out >>90% of existing DACs, especially the cheapies. |
I measured these acoustic factors rigorously with a finely tunable and precisely located grid of Helmholtz resonators and diffusers, their placement changed the pressure zones signature of the room, all these devices are precisely mechanically adjustable by hearing experiments like a piano tuner tune progressively a piano in a room and for a room...More than only measuring these acoustic factors i can change them at will in my room... 😁😊 Our brain/ears can measure all complex aspects of sounds together better than tools ask an acoustician... How is it possible to "measure" the complexity of a musical timing event on all acoustical and musical counts at the same time ? Ask your brain... 😁😊 Because i listen natural sounding timbres together as a whole, not microscopic detached details, i choose a low cost Dac, a non oversampling one, TDA 1543 old mythical low cost chip , with a complete minimalistic design , low noise internal battery, connected to a non linear supply, i never look back... His cost was peanuts... Happiness is not an enough strong word for my emotion description.... 😁😊 And i look more with pity than envy to any other option... Why? Because the ratio S.Q./price is over the roof and anyway i cannot fault this dac...It recieve ONLY good reviews all over the internet... i bought it for that reason and for his low price at the time...A lucky day 6 years ago ... The gear specs sheets matter less than acoustic knowledge in audio journey...
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I really wish all SQ elements are measurable such that, like I mentioned in other topics, a matrix can be established as a basis to more objectively assess the performance of speakers and other gears. But, so far, other than decay, SPL and related vertical/lateral responses, distortion/noise such as SNR or SINAD, etc., what other sound traits have been scientifically measured/reported? The dynamic range can possibly be done easily but was never reported at least to my knowledge. Can the width, depth and height of soundstage be measured accurately in spite we know the SS is created/affected by the delay of sound arriving at ears? How can one measure imaging, separation of intruments, the quality of bass such as speed and weight of bass, etc.? The sound color created by adding odd/even order of distortions (as shown below for example) also makes a difference too, but that is usually not the difference we discuss here. I always turn these effects off or set it to Standard when auditioning the DACs. Anyway, I can not afford $5k, $20k or $150k DACs referred by rich audiophiles here but I could ensure you that even the entry-level or mid-tier DACs up to $500 can sound differently from each other.
(Smsl Su8 Sound Color SPL)
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Take a listen yourself.
$100 DAC - Audioquest Dragonfly Black $3000 - Goldnote DS10 $10000 - Meitner MA3 $30000 DAC - EMM Labs DV2 $105k - MSB Select $150k - Wadax Reference
I think the MA3 is the sweet spot. For the 100k DACS, you won't hear much difference in my opinion unless if all of your gear is up there too |
Yesterday yet again one of the ASR minions stated that there is no difference in Dacs. I purchased a new Dac some weeks ago. Prior to this I listened to about 8 different Dacs to make up my mind. Interestingly the Dacs that rated very highly in the master minion's tests appealed the least. |
DACs DO make a difference in sound. However, as with anything else in the audio world, it follows the path of diminishing returns. A $20,000 DAC does NOT usually sound 10 times better than a $2,000 DAC. Get a Chord Qutest at around $2000 (one of the best DACs around) and skip the dcs Bartok at $20,000 coz most likely, you will not be able to tell the difference.
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If I think I hear something different, my inquiring mind wants to know more about what is going on. I know some just want the result and don't care to know the technical differences about the soundwave that is actually reaching their ear, but I want to know. If a dac creates a different sound then that means it causes the driver in the speaker to move differently than another dac, which means the pressure variations that my ear detects in the air are also different. I'm hard pressed to believe that differences in the sound reaching my ear that I can detect are not measurable with a good calibrated microphone and some software. Nearfield testing of a small speaker should easily do the trick. If the dacs are changing things then we can measure minute differences in level at any frequency, as well as phase, timing, distortion, and noise. Any ringing, reverberance, decay. Certainly it would show up and we could more clearly define what is creating the "good" sound. Is it increased accuracy or some kind of euphoric distortion? If it's a departure from linearity then we are off into a confusing world where people who are making albums are hearing something different than those playing it back, and components are all adding an array of colorations to each other to create effects that may appeal to some and not to others. I'd rather we all get as close as possible to a standard so we can hear what the content creators had in mind for us. I don't want my system to sound good. I want it to not have it's own sound so the creative content can be delivered to me as intended. I want the content to sound like it should, and my system to sound like nothing. Or if it does sound like something, it should be the same something the content creators had in mind. I'm not doubting that there might be some real differences, and that something is indeed getting better as dacs go up in price. But I'd like to see exactly what it is, not just an explanation of how well the circuits are implemented and how good the clocks are, etc. Exactly what about the sound that is reaching my ear has changed? |
Absolutely not but, if they all sound the same to you, that is a very good news because you could just save yourself tones of money and effort and be content with the most affordable one. One new audiogoner even said the entry-level Dac is indifferentiable to the built-in PC Dac to his ears. Then that is a even greater news since no external Dac is needed for him. But that is definitely not the story here. When you make transition from the entry-level ($100ish, well-received) Dac to $200ish Dac, and to $500 level Dac, they all sound differently starting from each individual freq. signature, to tonal balance, dynamics, SS width and depth as well as the imaging/separation within the SS. I have purchased and auditioned a total of 7 Dac up to $500 during the past year after extensive reviews reading and in-home trials for at least 30 days, and finally settled with Schiit Modius and Smsl Do200. Both of them have the balanced design and they definitely sound their best when connected through XLR cable. So if you have balanced amp, it is highly recommended you have also purchased the balanced Dac to go with it. The dynamics provided by the 4 volts or higher output stage is just on the other level. |
The only thing that matters is whether a cheap dac and expensive dac sound the same to you. What we think doesn't matter. I suggest you invest in a $200 Topping DX3 Pro+ and start your journey. If it matters, ASR said it was one of the best dacs they ever tested. I own one and it is pretty darn good. Buy it, listen for 6 months and then compare it to something more expensive. Only then will you know. What we say here about our experiences with products is meaningless as it relates to your ears. |
Here are some words of wisdom from the late Charlie Hansen of Ayre ---------------- The thing that I see over and over and over in this thread is an irrational belief in the importance of the DAC chip itself. Just about everything affect the sound of an audio product, but when it comes to DACs, I would rank (in order or sonic importance the general categories as follows:
1) The analog circuitry - 99.9% of all DACs are designed by digital engineers who don’t know enough about analog. They just follow the app note. The specs on the op-amps are fabulous and digital engineers are inherently seduced by the beauty of the math story. There are minor differences in the sound quality between various op-amps, but it’s kind of like the difference between a Duncan-Heinz cake mix and a Betty Crocker cake mix. 99.8% of the op-amps are used a current-to-voltage converters with the inverting input operating as a virtual ground. This is probably the worst way to use an op-amp as the input signal will cause the internal circuitry to go into slewing-limited distortion. http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/anablog/4311648/Op-amp-myths-ndash-by-Barrie-Gilbert
With discrete circuitry, the only limit is your imagination. You are free to adjust the topology of the circuit, the brands of the parts, the active devices, the bias current in each stage - anything you can think of. Think of this as going to a world-class patisserie in Paris and seeing all the different things that can be made.
2) The power supplies - 99.9% of all DACs use "3-pin" power supply regulators, which are pretty much op-amps connected to a series pass transistor. Everything in #1 applies here.
3) The master clock - jitter is a single number assigned to measure the phase noise of an oscillator over a fixed bandwidth. It is far more i important to know the spectral distribution of the timing variations and how they correlate to audible problems. 99.9% of all DACs use a strip-cut AT crystal in a Pierce gate oscillator circuit. It’s pretty good for the money but the results will depend heavily on the implementation, particularly in the PCB layout and the power supplies (#2).
It’s hard to rank the rest of these so I will give them a tie score.
4) The digital filter - 99.9% of all DACs use the digital filter built into the DAC chip. About a dozen companies know how to make a custom digital filter based on either FPGAs or DSP chips.
4) PCB layout - grounding and shielding, impedance-controlled traces, return currents, and return current paths are all critical. For a complex digital PCB, 8 layers is the minimum for good results.
4) The DAC chip - almost everything these days is delta sigma with a built-in digital filter. Differences between different chips is one of the less important aspects of D/A converter designs. Both ESS and AKM have some special tricks to reduce out-of-band noise, which can be helpful, but not dramatic.
4) Passive parts - the quality of these can make a large difference in overall performance, especially for analog. Not many digital engineers sit around listening to different brands of resistors to see what sounds best.
These are just a few of the things that make differences in the way that a DAC will sound.
Hope this helps, Charles Hansen ------------------- Source:
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Different types of chips, chip configurations, and most importantly output circuitry, can all influence the character and delivery of the sound. Overall quality of parts and design and overall topology all play a part. I can hear major differences with every dac in my house when swapping them out in my system (all well reviewed). And the very best one in terms of the realism and quality of stage depth, width, tonal character, clarity and accuracy happens to be the most expensive one (and it’s a $600 Chinese dac). a good system will still sound “good” with any cheap dac. But if you want to unfold dimensional and tonal potential for said system, a dac that’s designed with care (and passion) will do wonders and can even transform your system. Btw, Amir measured the Ares II as resulting in good measurements, but most modern r2r now also measure well (if that’s a concern). To my ears, a well designed and engaging dac can set the paradigm for active listening (as opposed to “doing the dishes” passive listening). |
I like reading ASR and I’m one who laughs at anyone who spends 5k on a power conditioner or regenerator and has literal sadness for anyone that spends more than 200 on a power cord. i started with a topping d10 DAC That ASR measures as almost perfect. Didn’t sound any better than my iPhone direct. Then I got the Ares II DAC which gets rave reviews - definitely absolutely sounded better. For 900 bucks I’d say was worth it but it wasn’t amazing difference and almost subtle in many ways. Then I couldn’t help myself and sold the Ares and got the Pontus for 2k. WOW huge difference and improvement. Couldn’t believe how much better it could be. I won’t use all the different annoying adjectives audiophiles use like “airy” and “organic” (ok maybe I will). That was just my experience your milage may vary but your cousin doesn’t sound like he knows what he is talking about.
and anyone who says “ASR” is nonsense is one of those people that spends 5k on a power chord. ASR measures electrical characteristics which is real. Now how that translates to sound quality is a different story and ASR doesn’t measure that. So no. - don’t use ASR to determine sound quality. Use it to determine if a device makes any difference (like cables don’t) and if a high end device measures well as it should (and most do) as a proxy for design and build quality. |
À good DAC, Do what hé have to do : from digital to analog: i did à test with a dac of 1000€,10 000€ and one of 40 000€.( very popular MSB): The first ones were very good (exellent). The most expensive one was to “clean”: no sensitivity,, no emotions (flat).. the Metronome Technologie (10000) was “splendid “. The Chines one 1000€ , was practacly egal . You have to figger it out. Much ‘money “, don’t mean ,”much better. My set is: Audio Note CDT two/2. Moon Mind 2 , Metronome Technologie C6 signature. Daniël Hertz M6L, VAC phi 300.1 and the Ilumnia Magister MK2. |
ASR is a joke. Measurements are the start of evaluation not the only thing. His frequency response measurements are just stupid. A 100hz in a sweep is just one tone. Does one instrument at 100hz sound the same as another? So how can you say the sweep represent what real music will sound like. the only noise insee is that coming from ASR site. |
I am afraid Audio Science Review is a completely useless site for any useful information on actual sound quality. Having been an audiophile and a scientist over the last fifty years. Amir or what ever his name is… is a guy obsessesed with measurements and is completely clueless about musical reproduction of sound. I can appreciate his interest in measurement… but the relationship to sound quality is virtually non-existent.
I have owned DACs costing in the hundreds of dollars, $2K, $5K, $10K, $17K and $22K. I assure you theyor sound is far more correlated to price than his measurements. This is because companies that produce good DACs start by using parameters…. Then they listen to then, to make them sound good. Stuff that measures flat tends to sound terrible. Audio Science Review is really good at producing pretty charts. After put together a fantastic sounding system… go back and see what his charts look like for your equipment… oh, that is right, you will not find any… it’s all budget stuff. |
That statement says it all your expert is none of the above . hav8ng owned a Audio store ,parts quality and design are essential to good sound as well as quality digital cables which I just was part of extensive testing in our audio club ,and yes even a quality digital cable makes a audible difference . on average 25% of the price of the product goes into the build including packaging meaning your $400 dac is msybe $80 in parts = Youwill hear a pocket radio worth of digital , there are great buys like the $900 Denafrips Aries-2 which is = to a quality $1500 dac , but I feel $2k on up is needed minimum. to get true Audiophile quality digital $$5-6kk is the sweet spot after discounts .it’s just my extensive observation , I spend $1k ,and $1500 on digital cables which make a dramatic improvement in the sound of any dac , One of my favorites Very unique cables from Serbia Final Touch Audio , Lampizator uses these exclusively on their dacs. Very natural -Un digital their Callisto usb is class leading ,the best under $1k usb cable I have heard to date , the top Sinope usb cable I recently bought ,as well as Ethernet cables streaming now sounds so much more detailed and natural ,I just had to point this out. |
I assume that most of the posters on that site have never heard a high-end DAC and are fearful they will get "taken" if they buy one. All based on the "knowledge" of all the other sheep who have also never heard a high-end DAC, but insist that they know how they will sound based on measurements that one person posts. It reminds me a lot of the "fans" group on Facebook for our local football team who all profess to know more than the coach and general manager, even though many of them appear to live in their parent's basements and can barely spell. What's interesting is that Amir purports to also listen to items he measures, yet his listening impressions rarely line up with mine when I have also heard the item being reviewed. Confirmation bias? "It measures like this, so it should sound like that" and voila, it does! |
