I don't know if there's a "new dynamic" in speaker pricing or not. What I do know is that there are some consumers who are able and willing to pay "whatever."
The new dynamic in speaker pricing
Yesterday I received the latest issue of the Absolute Sound mag. This issue has the round up of the varying speaker manufacturer’s wares along with the retail pricing. One thing that struck me is the number of speaker manufacturer’s who have a speaker in their line up that cost close to a $1M!! There are good number of speakers now available with prices in the $700K+ range. A few manufacturer’s are also a little ’glib’ with their top model pricing, such as Oswalds Mill--who state- price upon inquiry only!
This new speaker pricing dynamic is interesting, as it clearly indicates that there are buyers out there who are happy to pay these prices and presumably enough buyers to make these products viable. A trend that is certainly interesting and yet questionable as to how it will impact the hobby as a whole.
Opinions on this trend?
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That reviewer has XVX, not Alexx V. And he had a full Dag setup visit the room and it didn’t dethrone his Macs. My issue with the setup is that the soundstage is high. He has since moved, unfortunately. One of the best audiophiles and friends around. His passion for records is unmatched - up to 10k last time I visited. |
@headphonedreams I understand that a specific driver required a specific cabinet with specific dimensions. That's the basis of speaker design. I'm thinking about the problem in terms of small, medium or large cabinets with associated drivers and crossovers. We are already intuitively doing that at Hi-fi shops by offering different speaker models. However these speaker models have unknown components. I want to add transparency to the business. That said, this measure doesn't favor the manufacturer at all. This is purely a DIY approach to speakers. You pick a driver then you pick the enclosure and crossover. The manufacturer does that choice for us already. |
@kokakolia there are some huge differences between kitchens and hifi systems. In a kitchen the different storage units must fit and the doors must fit the storage units but other than that it's mostly about how it looks. If you have a crossover and some speaker elements that fit you can't just change one of them. Even the box affects the sound and has to match the other parts. I know there are some good kits out there but the best solution seems to be a complete set with drivers and crossover and a box that may need assembly, like an Ikea chair. What you save money on is that the box may use simpler materials and not look pretty and of course the assembly. |
Disclaimer: I'm a total newbie here. I understand why electronics can be very expensive from an engineering and parts cost perspective. But I just don't understand how these speakers can be so expensive. I mean I found a Hi-Fi shop in Paris which specializes in DIY kits using quality parts from Audax, Supravox, Davis Acoustics etc... This shop also sells assembled speaker kits with quality finishes (high gloss paint/veneer). Most of the components are assembled in France. The assembled speakers range from 200€ to 10,000€. You can realistically spend 2 or 3k€ on a serious pair of speakers. You can audition every product in the shop as you please. The service is nice and very helpful. And that's how it should be (IMHO). No magic. Just a list of parts and a bunch of customization options. Buying a speaker should be like buying a kitchen. Taking a broader perspective. Most small boutique speaker manufacturers sell bookshelf units for 2k~3k€ and tower units for 5k~20k€. |
@fleschler I would suggest that you reserve your judgement of the new Wilson Alexx V's until such time as you have the opportunity to hear them with an appropriate setting and gear. I suspect you will then have a different opinion of the presentation. |
They're far too expensive for any dealer to have demo models so hardly anyone has ever heard them. That means they don't have to perform well. Someone with a lot of money who wants "the best" will buy them regardless of performance and some small company will make a ton of money. The stupid rich are the ideal customer. |
@daveyf The room was about 40+ feet deep but less than 18 feet wide. Yes, they had amazing dynamic impact/scale and a huge soundstage, just too much of something which made them less than relaxing to listen to. Maybe it was the amps but I've only enjoyed listening to the smaller Wilsons rather than large ones over time. The worst Wilson was the original WAMM, terrible, like five boxes shouting at me separately at a high end showroom (Christopher Hansen-Beverly Hills) using all tube Audio Research gear. They've certainly gotten better since then. |
@fleschler Sounds like you heard a classic mismatch of gear that had little synergy. When i heard the Alexx V's, they were in a huge room ( 45'X30'!) partnered with D'agostino amps/ preamp and a MSB Select 2 DAC. Superb sound with a huge soundstage and amazing dynamic impact/scale. However, whenever I have heard McIntosh amps, I hear what you describe, so that is where I would expect the results you heard. How big was the room you heard the Alexx V's in? I think anything smaller than about 25' x30' would be a limiting factor for these large speakers! |
@daveyf I heard the Alexx V’s at a friend of a friend’s house who is also a part time audio reviewer. He drove them with huge SS McIntosh amps, I don’t know what other electronics, a Kuzma turntable, several high end arms and the latest DS $12K optical cartridge and transformer. Even had the famous Mpingo record weight. This system had phenomenal dynamics, bass and resolution. However, after a few records, it just was too forward, too much information. Really like the ultimate studio sound, just not relaxing (or eventually musically interesting). |
@keithr I tend to agree that the price tag of some of these candidates tends to be off-putting, when considered against their abilities, or lack thereof! When I heard the big Stenheim's, I was also pretty unimpressed. I was impressed with the Alexx V's, but they require a very large room, a lot of upstream grunt and a fat wallet. Nonetheless, if you have the room and the power ( and the $$), then I would consider them a contender. |
@daveyf as you've heard a number of six figure speakers that I have locally, have to admit I'm never impressed enough to pull out my wallet for a pair. YG Sonja XVs, Chronosonics, Gryphon Trident, etc. Most of the time, they have larger issues that require a lot more effort to get right. the one I'd like to hear in an optimized setting is the big Stenheim. |
...I think I'll just continue to diy'ing my Walsh drivers. They may not be 'perfection personified', but they make me smile. Perhaps, when I excuse self from this mortal coil, I'll have them destroyed along with my notes, drawings, and all the items collected to make them. ...and y'all can be left with wondering what I was going on about, if bothering to do so at all. Linkwitz noted "...ignore the room...." Since mine is basically hideous at this time, it's an upfront necessity for me. And they do it really well.... I've spent peanuts doing so. My time involved can be considered in $ & sense to roughly equal to a pair of 10K$ units, but it's mine to burn. Remaining clueless is your problem...mho....;) |
@fleschler Your friend is very typical of a number of a'philes who much prefer putting their money into gear than into the room acoustics! Crazy to do this, IME. The benefit he would get with going to similar lengths as you did to treat his room would far off-set the differences he likely got from lowering the far too high YG tweeters. Windows behind speakers is also never a great thing, IMO. That, plus his room is basically a square results in the sound you describe. |
Yes, he also has a pair of subs and he paid $12K to separate the YGs woofers from the main speaker (they are adjacent now) so that the tweeter is more at ear level (they are too high as originally constructed). They throw a huge soundstage and excellent focus which is much better than my speakers; but, alas, his room is 20x20X10 and has windows behind his speakers, mostly untreated room with no acoustic treatment or tweaks. I'm surprised that it sounds so good but he does have another $200K in equipment/cabling. His system more often homogenizes the sound whereas my system allows me to hear greater differences in each recording while being very involving. |
@fleschler Great point about the cost of the room. I would think that anyone who has the ability to buy the mega $$ speaker would have a room that could accommodate it. Not just from a size perspective ( although this is a given) but also from the acoustic requirements. This may be an assumption that is incorrect, as I suspect ( and I have seen a few poor room set ups with very pricey gear) that this is not always going to be the case. If one has a budget like you stated, then i would think that putting the bulk of the budget into the room and its acoustics will pay greater dividends than just about anything else. As you describe. Question is what your friends very nice YG’s would sound like in your room?...I would guess that you would be tempted to pass on your Legacies then! |
@j-wall I've heard several Von Schweikert speakers from the VR-35 to the Ultra 11. The Ultra 9 and 11 sounded better than any audio system I've ever heard (and I've probably heard about 1000 at shows mostly and maybe 50 in homes). Sure, they also were accompanied by nearly $1 million in equipment/cabling in huge rooms. However, buying slightly used speakers is bargain shopping for great sound. I don't think I could afford even the best speaker for my room, the Ultra 7 at $180,000 or even the Ultra 55 at $100,000. But I intend to purchase the VR9SE II from 2015 for under $50,000. My friend has YG Acoustic Sonja 2.3s, $115,000 speakers. They sound better than my Legacy Focus which sell for around $2500-$3000. However, the difference between his and my speaker isn't worth the difference to me. I lack his 3D open sound and great ambience retrieval. Otherwise, I'm quite satisfied with my musical (as opposed to ultra-resolving) sound. There is another reason (besides my matched excellent equipment/cabling) that my inexpensive speakers sound great. I spent $150,000 constructing a custom built listening room which I have previously described on forums. I don't have peaks or valleys and have built-in the wall bass traps. Unless I have a doubling in income, I just am too conservative to spend MAP on a new pair of speakers. I would rather purchase "last year's" model for 25% to 35% of MAP. And I love music, as a amateur recording engineer, performer and listener (over 2 hours daily). |
The pricing in all luxury goods tracks disposable incomes. The disparity between the middle class and the top even 5% of buyers continues to grow. It is no wonder that magazines want a cut from the top instead of the middle. As an audiophile who has to work for a living I feel being a builder is a great way to learn to enjoy your hobby more and keep your costs firmly on the ground. |
@daveyf I agree with you as well. Just because something should be a statement piece doesn't make it incredible for everyone, or anyone! In that case, it's a failed experiment by the designer/manufacturer, and they will learn the hard way, though they may be able to write off their losses, and maybe that's part of the game as well. |
@blisshifi Some good points. However, historically there have been a number of ultra priced speakers that have come to the market that have really failed to not only catch the consumers attention, but have also failed in their ability to sound better than the far lower priced competition. This leaves the few that dipped into their wallet with a costly boat anchor that is now difficult to move on. As the speaker pricing factors increase, now many over $350K, not only does the value for money equation surface, but also the ’expectation’ level of the consumer. Admitedly one could argue that at this price level, the consumer is not really that concerned about the above...and as such these points are irrelevant. Interestingly, the few folks that i know that would be able to dip into this price pool are in fact exactly the opposite...they are extremely value conscious! YMMV. |
One thing to consider is that these speakers are not made for the masses. They are absolutely made for the 1%. Just with any manufacturer in any category, they invest R&D to make their statement products. This is true in any precision performance category - auto, watches, etc. They are not intended to sell many, which is also why it is priced so high, because there was considerable time spent to develop the product. The decision to make these types of moves is not to increase the overall median for a price of speakers, but to distinguish the brand from others in terms of innovation and impression. Other brands recognize this, and they follow suit. But most are also smart enough to know that most of their products need to be in a price range that is accessible to a larger population. Because of this, many of these products are also not designed for the average space, and it will make most people wonder why anyone would ever settle for them. But there are the people who have the money and right gear, people who have the right space, and people who have all of the above to accommodate these ultra-expensive speakers. Are they worth it? To echo @ghdprentice, that decision is up to the individual. |
A few months back i heard the new Wilson Alexx Vs. These are a very impressive speaker. What struck me was that at this level, and room dependent, the speaker can portray the sense of ’scale’ of a large ’live’ event! That is something that I think only larger speakers can accomplish. ( plus the room has to be large enough to allow for this portrayal!). What the multi kilo buck ( $700K+) speaker brings over this is not obvious to me. The Wilsons’ retail for about $135K and require a stout amp upstream and a very large room, but give them this...and I think most of us would be happy. OTOH, maybe the top of the line Magico’s and the others mentioned above do offer something in addition...question in my mind is what that is? I would like to hear for myself if the additional large $$ is easily heard, or if the law of diminishing returns is so great at this price point that all you are buying is ’bragging rights’?? |
Anyone can spend whatever they want- if it’s worth it to them is all that matters, Just please don’t say something sounds X times better than something else. it’s like saying one girl is twice as pretty as another or an acting performance was X times as good as another. This is art, not science as the objectivists would like you to believe, but even they wouldn’t say one piece of equipment sound X times better than something else. Much better, noticeably better, not in the same league, sure, but please don’t try to justify the increased cost with proportionally increased sound quality.. Everyone knows the law of diminishing returns….. |
Kenjit: its not a question of whether they have stolen their earnings. The issue is that, if one idiot buys a million dollar speaker, all the speakers companies will raise their prices and make them unaffordable for the rest of us. Why is that so hard to understand?"
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mbmi: "10K to 20 K is the sweet spot in hi end speakers......any amount over that is just stupid" No, your comment is very stupid. I am not saying you cannot get good speakers in this range, but have you heard really hi end speakers such as Borresson, Gauder Akustik, Vivid Audio, Kii? The difference is huge. I wish I could afford them, but I cannot so need to make do with lesser quality sound. |
Hello, Here is part of the issue with a lot of goods sold. |
There is a good question as to whether a speaker design that would be tiny, have zero aesthetics and yet be a ’world beater’, would actually have any traction regardless of pricing. Most manufacturers ( maybe all?) are cognizant of the fact that folks in this hobby tend to buy using their eyes more than their ears. As such, a ultra pricey offering had better have some serious bling to it, or be large enough to create a sense of awe. A tiny speaker, like in my above example, would have little chance at the price points we are talking about---even if it was the best sounding speaker ever made! Interesting point. |
There are great sounding loudspeakers and there are very high price loudspeakers sometimes the costly ones can be wonderful sometimes they are just priced high because that's how audiophiles think they greatly associate retail prices and name brands with sound quality. Not how they sound but are they in the price range I want to spend and would other audiophiles approve of what I bought. |
At the level of OMA speakers, the 'art' of the appearance of the unit means as much (if not more) than the performance of it. They may sound terrific, but at that $ level they Must Look the Part doing so. They would demand being in a space that makes them do so, as well as the driving elements. But those who can or feel the need for that can afford that, as well as whatever else scratches the itches felt for whatever rationale. Must be nice....*G* |
The trend of availability of the most expensive offerings in speakers, or any component, has a mix of reasons. The primary reason IMO is the willingness of a suitable potential customer and their own decisions to part with funds for a desired and anticipated outcome. More people than ever have bigger bucks to splash out for top priced equipment. It's okay. My interest would be to curate some of the good stuff at a massive discount from original retail. I am not in a hurry for my wish lists to be fulfilled, and there is a lifetime's worth of music to enjoy while plans come together. |
@drbarney1 I see you had a purpose built room built for your system, or was it a system built for your room design!! ...;0)
Either way, your room is certainly "unique"!!!! |
I am skeptical about the extreme prices. In 2003 Stereophile Magazine did a review of a stereo amplifier that uses 833A radio station transmitter tubes with their grids driven by 300B SET. It sold for $350,000. Using the best transformers and parts available you can build the same amplifier with $2,000 worth of parts and at most a week or two of labor. There are speaker cables selling for over $25,000 a pair but the physics, such as skin effect, which subtracts as little as a few hundredths of s dB at 20 kHz and static electricity stored in the insulation returning that energy and causing distortion calculates as irrelevant. In can't help but think the same thing applies to million dollar speakers. |
Work hard, save your money & spend it on what you like. Despite what Robert Harley says, there is clearly a law of diminishing returns in hi fi like everything else. You can get 80% of the "way" there for "reasonable" $ in cars, bicycles, hifi equipment, etc. The final 20% costs a LOT more. It will always be so. It's not a linear thing but exponential. |
Holy Grail, End Game, such descriptions are used frequently to describe ultra high end audio gear. Those who are familiar with jays’ audio lab get a steady diet of his latest and greatest. I enjoy jay’s channel, but only for entertainment. The Absoute Sound is routinely criticized by its readers for focusing too much on the ultra high end, but hey, that’s their prerogative, and if you don’t agree, don’t subscribe. Like some have already said, it’s a lot of fun to put together a cost effective system that has the right synergy to egage you with the music. For me, that’s what it’s all about. Big systems do have a big sound which can be quite engaging, I have to admit it, but I have not been moved enough to continue up that path. Back in the day when this hobby was more grassroots, speakers like the Spica TC50 and amplifiers like the Berning EA230 could be combined for a really satisfying sound. I had a pair of Dahlquist DQ10’s and a Luxman L100 integrated amp, and to this day I still think that was a superb sounding combination. The point is, you DON’T necessarily have to spend tens of thousands of dollars to have a good sounding system. You just need to do your homework and trust YOUR ears.
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@deludedaudiophile considering some of these companies are more known for being "lifestyle" companies than for the products they produce, what you say is likely true to a point. |
Grand Karma Enigma $1,000,000.00 USD Moon Audio Opulence $1,100,000.00 USD Transmission Audio Ultimate $2,000,000.00 USD Cessaro Horn Acoustics Omega 1 $1,000,000.00 USD ...and last but by no means least: Hart Audio D&W Aural Pleasure +/- $5,000,000.00 USD: features a 10 or 12" coaxial Tannoy driver, an equally obtainable and rather generic, not to mention inexpensive dome supertweeter which brand I do not recall at the moment, in a hand cast 18K gold enclosure. The gold surely has increased in value since the product was produced, but as a speaker system it seems it would be rather average considering the absurd price. |
It is called a halo effect in Marketing speak. It elevates the brand. They don't expect to sell many (if any of them) but will tell you that the technology trickles down to their lower priced models (which it probably does in most cases). If someone is playing with monopoly money, it doesn't matter what it costs. Some people want something just because it is rare or hard to get. That's their primary motivation. I was never into the collector aspect of things. If I don't use it, I sell it. Mostly with records, but other things as well. |
