The Best Preamp is no Preamp?

The best preamp is no preamp only until you hear high quality active preamp

@sns 

While I don't disagree that active preamps can be very good, I think if a high quality passive doesn't beat it, your system is what's at fault. I have owned many "higher end" active preamps from CJ, ARC, deHavilland, Art Audio, Lamm, Audible Illusions, Cary, BAT, and the list goes on. But a TVC or LDR beat every one of them.

I think I have a good example of when a passive pre works.  100 dB speakers  PASS XA25 with 20dB of gain.  1.25V will run the amp at full power.  The lowest active preamp I could find was 5dB.  Even now with this passive setup at times I only need to turn it up to say 10AM.  An active will change the sound I know.  Are there active solutions for my setup?  I don't really want to mess with tube amps.  Tube preamps would sound OK but too much gain might make my volume very sensative?  I think.

@daledeee1 A lot depends on what type of passive you are using. All are not created equal.

Edit:

I just looked at your system. You are doing yourself a huge disservice if you don't at least listen to a couple of good tube amps on those speakers. I owned them in the past so I know of what I speak.

@ozzy62,

fully agreed: twenty years ago I replaced a Graaf 13.5B with a simple Modsquad passive feeding a Graff GM20. The phono stage was a Zyx Artisan and digital was a then state of the art dac. Ever since I have gone either passive or direct from the DAC.If the source has sufficient voltage at adequate impedance additional pre circuitry is simply detrimental.

I currently have a VTA SP12(bob latino) It is currently running passive buffer with 12AU7 Tungsol. All it takes is change one wire and I could have active. It has remote volume, but I doubt it’s anything special.  @ozzy what is your definition of "good" amp?  Thanks

I just re-read the post and realized the OP was using a damn AVR as a preamp.  And not just any AVR, but a Marantz AVR which, IME is one of the most veiled and colored AVRs out there.  So no wonder when the OP heard the detail and transparency of going direct to the amp he found it revelatory.  My advice would be to demo some good stereo preamps and see if they improve things further — my experience is likely they will.  Also, at some point gotta upgrade from those Emotiva  amps, which aren’t worthy of a good stereo pre IMHO.  My $0.02 FWIW. 

Yeah I missed that too.

After purchasing the Lumin X1, I realized how much cleaner, open and dynamic the sound can be without a preamp.

I ended up selling my Ayre KX-20 preamp along with all the extra cables, footers and streamlined my system.

ozzy

I have to agree with ghdprentice and phantom_av: the vast majority of the time, a great (tube) pre-amp is essential.

It really depends on what you have. We have tried to forego a pre-amp and go direct from Streamer (Linn Selekt DSM w/Kalayst DAC) to our Pass Labs monos. And while there were gains in resolution, it was not the type of resolution you want to actually LISTEN to--at least for more than a song or two.

The tube pre-amp gives us all the resolution of the direct method--that is: everything we heard going direct was there with the pre-amp. But here's the the trick: it was the pre-amp's arrangement and emphases of the frequencies and detail that made it both (audiophile-terminology alert!) musical/dynamic and cohesive (properly packaged with sounds in proper relation to each other).

Perhaps if we had the MSB Select or dCS Vivaldi+, we would have different results. But I really do not think so.

The gains in going direct are unbridled detail. But is that what audio systems are designed to do? Maybe a stethoscope is. But a MUSIC system is supposed to trick our brains into believing (coupled with our willing disbelief) that we are sitting I front of the live performance.

And that requires a tonal and dimensional consideration that a direct connection is usually incapable of delivering.

I'm feeding a CD player directly into my Sophia EL 34. Anything else comes in on an "Aux" input. It sounds glorious.

I agree with a 'less is more' approach but It could have been the Marantz holding your system performance back.

I just sent my Zesto Leto in for service.   That preamp sounds incredible, its getting the ESP Power Supply update that the new Ultra II has.    I have a Conrad Johnson Classic 2se and Sonic Frontiers SFL-1 ,  both of which are decent but the Zesto walks all over them.  The difference is so pronounced in my system its not even funny.   Preamp IS the most important component in the chain .

Intellectually, removing a piece of gear from the chain must remove distortion.

Yet, so many experienced audiophiles try passive and return to active preamps because they “sound better” in their systems.

Thus, the only explanation for this is that the brain “likes” certain types and amounts of distortion. A more complex topic is how distortion from different parts of the chain interact. 

Thus, the only explanation for this is that the brain “likes” certain types and amounts of distortion. A more complex topic is how distortion from different parts of the chain interact.

@tangramca There is more than one explanation! If you've ever heard differences between interconnect cables then you know that they can color the sound too. A good linestage can vastly reduce this coloration (on account of its lower output impedance). If the linestage is doing its job properly you might not hear any significant difference between interconnect cables at all.

I suppose integrates could have a say in this? Thanks 

Sorry, integrated amps 

I have owned many preamps most all types as well as integrated etc. And it's about synergy some systems just sound better with active over passive or direct. You can get more impact dynamics and overall better sound quality if your system requires an active over passive. At this time I tend to prefer tube preamplification over my solid-state or passives or direct DAC to the amp. But as I mentioned it depends on the system after all we listen to systems, not components.

If you have a strong enough signal to drive a power amp, why add more electronics? You need some way to switch sources and a volume control. Active electronics are not necessary, and, as you have discovered, can only make things worse! Good for you! My testing, evaluating, and office/lab/workroom system has no pre-amp. Don't spend money on what you don't need!

You should audition a Zesto Leto preamp.....you will be a believer 

@ozzy62 I agree a passive can be preferable to dac only setup. My active pre is in fact dual TVC.

With respect to integrated amps, there are some that will put expensive two box solutions to shame. With separates I really believe some gear plays nice with each other and some doesn’t….synergy….   I have have people call BS on this but I believe it’s true.  With an integrated there is less cable, less connections, less to fail hopefully.   So with a good integrated the control and amplifier sections complement each other and are well sorted out.  I have nothing against integrated amps ….   Some awesome ones out there 

Nothing is better than nothing at all...

If i could save the money and go Passive or no Pre-amp at all i would have done this years back.

Whilst many on here claim no pre-amp is best probbably have not had very great pre-amps. You dont loose details by adding a pre-amp you gain more control on how that power amp works.

The sound becomes less Flat and more dimensional in space but if you going to use some El Chepo pre-amp then prob its best not to use one altogether.

At this rate i would say just buy Active Studio Speakers, Go Direct from DAC to Active Speaker and call it a day, you will get gobs of Detail and dynamics but at the expense of fatigue.

@soix 

I just re-read the post and realized the OP was using a damn AVR as a preamp.  And not just any AVR, but a Marantz AVR which, IME is one of the most veiled and colored AVRs out there.  So no wonder when the OP heard the detail and transparency of going direct to the amp he found it revelatory.

yup... that makes what might initially sound like a hard question a really easy one...

This has been an on-going topic for a very long time! @phantom_av makes a good point about the quality of the line stage; IME if a passive sounds better its telling you something about the line stage you used for comparison. IMO line stages have been in a sad state of affairs for a long time but if you get a good one there's no going back.

I don't like the problem were a passive sounds fine at full volume (which becomes the source driving the amp) but as you turn down the volume even a little bit the bass loses impact was well as the dynamic character overall.

If you never are able to turn the volume up all the way with a passive you may never find out what you are missing.

You can avoid this problem to a limited degree by using a control of a lower value for example 10K instead of 100K. But at that point a lot of sources will choke as they are not meant to drive impedances that low. 

In addition you have to keep your cables short and be picky about what cables you use. I found out decades ago that if you can place your amps by the speakers and run short speaker cables you get an instant improvement in resolution across the board- but only if you can get the signal to the amps intact. I ran balanced lines for that and so had no problems. So for the last 30 years that is what I've done, and no worries about what cable I've used. They are 30 feet long!

That simply isn't something you can do if you use a passive control. If you have a smaller situation where a meter cable will be long enough then if you're careful (or lucky) you can get it to work quite well. My bedroom system employs a passive control built into the power amplifier which IME is the best place to put it.

The Lumin X1 has an excellent volume control albeit the X1 was expensive but when I sold my preamp, cables, footers the difference was not too bad.

And boy did I improve the sound quality.

ozzy

Could it be that this discussion arises from a definitorial problem?

The analogue stage of a DAC generally outputs a signal akin to that of a pre, so all that‘s needed is attenuation and in some cases an analogue input to handle the phono signal. Therefore going passive or direct from a dac seems to obviate the issues one might have when attenuating a signal from a phono amplifier with a passive.

So it comes down to the quality of the attenator in the dac. Admittedly there are steep differences between say a stepped array and crude digital attenuators.

I run an Antelope Zodiac Platinum which via its balanced outputs can even address Ralph‘s bi-amping point and provides single ended and balanced analogue inputs.

So removing a poor preamp (Marantz SR5015) makes the system sound better...Got it!

To clarify, Marantz SR5015 is NOT a preamp per se. It is a 7.2 AVR designed and manufactured for home theater application. For the price, it is not a poor multi-channel AVR. But when used as a preamp, it just got too many baggages / interferences in one chassis to be able to match well with the rest of system and sound good. It is almost no brainer that the system will sound better by removing it from the signal path.

I have an MSB Discrete/MSB Premier Power Base that I run direct to my Pass Labs 250.8 (with Wilson Audio Sabrina X speakers).  I am a fully digital guy, FYI, so I don’t need analog inputs, although my wife recently commented that she would like to hear some of my vinyl on a turntable for nostalgia purposes.  I too have been wondering about whether to get a tube pre like an Audio Research Ref 5 and whether it will add anything better to the sound. It seems counterintuitive that putting a bunch of wires and circuits into the signal path actually will improve the sound, but seemingly, lots of people with good systems claim that it is the case.  I have an open mind and will see if I can try something before I buy one, but is there any explanation for how putting a preamp in the signal path when you have a fairly higher-end DAC can make an improvement?

 I have an old Phase Linear 400 power amp. I can and have ran that directly from my CD player to my amp bypassing the pre-amp. Of course having volume controls on your power amp is a must.

A pre-amp gives tone controls and a master on/off switch, remote usability but does not amplify or change the signal, a passive component really.

I  have tried the dac direct route in my office system.  In the office I am feeding Emotiva XPA 1 monoblocks which drive an older set of VanL quattros.   I tried my Cary 200T Dac direct and the sound was Ok.  I moved the 200T back to another system with a Cary preamp,  well broken in Odessey Kismets monos, and highly Modified VanLs,  the sound is phennominal (to my ears).  

 I have subsequently gone direct from an RME ADI DAC 2 FS into the Emotiva XPA 1s in my office and because of the myriad features of the RME it works extremely well direct to the monos and allows me to compensate for room irregularities in my office / Qi Gong studio.  That said I will look down the line to introduce a little tube coloration into the office setup.   As stated by others it is a matter of taste and system synergy. Each element: cables, wires, power all, add or detract from the overall effect. 

but is there any explanation for how putting a preamp in the signal path when you have a fairly higher-end DAC can make an improvement?

Yes. The explanation is offered earlier on this thread.

That’s the only real fun to be had in audio.  Trying something new is a very good thing as long as you don’t blow up your gear. Keeps things interesting anyway. I’ll try it sometime with my Node2i. 

Everybody talks about high quality preamps, which makes over-all sound good. Yes, the pre MAKES (modify) poor sound from poor sources to be good. That means the pre does change the original music signal into slightly different signal. The modified signal would be good to our ears. Do not praise the preamp that makes poor source better. Just blame the poor source. If you have good source (well-recorded CD for example), you can enjoy the music much better with no preamp. Why does tube-based gears make good sound? Just because the tubes tend to add some distortion to the original signal, and the added signal makes our ears pleasing. The added signal is usually even-order frequencies.

Shorter speaker cables make the over-all sound better? I have to laugh at the guy who says that. Inside the speakers, there are very long coils. Due to limited space condition, the coil's physical shape can not be better than that of speaker cables. Compromised long speaker voice coil and very short speaker cable? Usually, the speaker cable length does not matter very much unless the cables run longer than 50 feet.

Agreed!  Even gooder is eliminating power amps (technically).  Music server feeding Weiss 501 DAC/volume control directly to ATC active speakers.  Faster, more dynamic, more detail and only four pieces to reproduce music.

Since Enlighten Audio Design (EAD), Theta days in ‘90s.. fast forward to dCS Verdi/Elgar/Purcell/clock to more recent days’ Accuphase 2 boxes, and friend’s Vivaldi stack, MSB Select (complete) double power bases, pre module etc, Esoteric Grandioso stack—still I/we found running through preamps the sound were just more realistically ‘live’ and musical (bluntly~akin to 2D vs 3D rendition of the music). Unless one wants to simplify, or $ave on peripherals (cabling etc.), a great preamp in a top flight system is the way to go.

Maybe someday in the future when pre module in dac or passive improved further can hopefully forgo the pre, but not yet.. imho, ymmv.

I’m digital only and currently using only one input on my preamp, yet it costed more than my speakers—yes call me crazy, but the difference (to me) is rather dramatic and worth its cost.

I've always used the CD-direct-to-amp as a sanity check for evaluating how a new preamp sounds.  The direct is always more neutral, but lacks a certain "something".  A lesser preamp will clearly sound worse than direct, but a good preamp will tend to sound bigger, wider, & more dynamic.  I've had a couple pre's that were switchable between active & passive, and I found it interesting to switch between modes.  The passive mode would be more neutral, but I usually left it on active.  Over years and years of use, you'd think I'd just instinctively gravitate towards the position that gave me greater pleasure, and that position was always "active".   

A passive pre will allow you to listen to your power amp. If you like what you hear, that may be all you need.

If you don’t like what you hear, you might need to add 2nd harmonic distortion to the signal (active pre) to fatten up the sound, add body and dimension, texture....the good seasoning us audiophiles tend to crave.

If your DAC isn’t 2 volts or you have really long cable runs, an active preamp may be required.

I've found over the years that a really good preamp seems to provide to me the best results sonically.  These days, most source components have good output drive, and preamps end up being more attenuator than amplifier.  However, the signal still goes through the preamp's amplification stage and depending on the quality of those components that touch the signal along with the power-supply can provide drive to the amplifier(s), especially with long lead lengths.  Some amplifiers need fairly high input voltage for full output and the input impedance of some amps may require a more robust source signal which is where a great preamp will be better able to drive it.    Yes...  The preamp will add in its own sonic signature (color if you will) but in my experience, has resulted in the best sound for my listening enjoyment.  Obviously, there is no simple answer for this question !  It's basically the exquisite dance of specific components and how they play together for your personal sonic enjoyment...  

Thanks for sharing your experience, Brandon...

The greatest take-away from your post is the importance of "doing the work."  Early on in my audio experience, I hooked up with passionate, energetic music lovers that were excited to do the work necessary to achieve great sound.  My 80's brick & mortar dealer removed his living room picture window to install Altecs, for example.  My 90's mod engineer/friend would spend hours testing isolation approaches, including those "under the hood" of gear.  And yes, changes can prove sideways or negative, but, until you try.

Efforts are always rewarded.  A great preamp in a specific SYSTEM may prove best, or not.  Often, compromises need be made often due to mixing digital and analog gear, whether it be volume controls, wiring approaches and room requirements in placement.  In recent years, I've learned room/loudspeaker integration to be most vital.  Study, experiment with tuning a room (laser ruler a must.)  Arrival timing, room resonances, bass nodes, ceiling and floor bounce, distances between and to your speakers, the tilt of the speakers in how that relates to your listening height.  Experiment, experiment.  When you find *** IT ***, once found, "it" ...will be readily apparent to you.  THEN, everything you do upstream will take on much more life and character in your system.  Experiments with wire, electronic gear, contact enhancement, isolation will begin to reveal themselves once those windows open. 

And yes, many of these things cannot be measured, however, we each own the best testing devices ever created.  I'm squarely in both camps, measurements indeed matter, known science matters to get close, THEN the fun work begins! 

Some experienced listeners seem to have personal favorites in what's most important to address, often, impressed by some specific game changing experience in their journey...amp, TT, speakers...you name it.  Often, that can become the "focus point" for individuals, however, as many have voiced here, everything does indeed matter once the windows open to great sound.  Experiment, experiment. 

Think Positive, Test Negative                              More Peace, Pin

@pinthrift 

👍

I have a Schiit Freya+. This pre-amp allows 3 modes of volume control
utilizing relay-switched resisters. Select passive, solid state or vacuum tube amplification.

Experimenting changed many of my original presumptions. Multiple outputs allow for easy bi-amping. Unique value.

That means the pre does change the original music signal into slightly different signal. The modified signal would be good to our ears. Do not praise the preamp that makes poor source better. Just blame the poor source. If you have good source (well-recorded CD for example), you can enjoy the music much better with no preamp. Why does tube-based gears make good sound? Just because the tubes tend to add some distortion to the original signal, and the added signal makes our ears pleasing. The added signal is usually even-order frequencies.

Shorter speaker cables make the over-all sound better? I have to laugh at the guy who says that. Inside the speakers, there are very long coils. Due to limited space condition, the coil's physical shape can not be better than that of speaker cables. Compromised long speaker voice coil and very short speaker cable? Usually, the speaker cable length does not matter very much unless the cables run longer than 50 feet.

A preamp may well not load a source as heavily so the source may sound better due to wider bandwidth and lower distortion.

The choke in a speaker is something very different from the speaker cables! Speaker cables have low inductance while a choke has high inductance. But if we are to take this argument on its face, the correct conclusion would be that since a choke as able to cause highs to roll off and its substantially similar to a speaker cable, the conclusion would be that you really don't want long speaker cables! 

In practice, long speaker cables often cause a loss of bass impact and intelligibility of vocals. This is easily measured and demonstrated. 

If anyone reading this thread has a Lumin streamer in their system and has not tried the LEEDH volume control in the software, you should do so now. Your expensive preamp will find it's way on to Audiogon pretty quickly.

I doubt it very much, My MP-1 Pre-amp is a permernent keeper!  :-)

@ozzy62

While I do like the Leedh volume control on my Lumin T2, I still prefer my Tube Preamp, which adds more body and soul to the presentation.

 There is no substitute for listening.  Sometimes yes, sometimes no.  Depends on your equipment and the ease of controlling volume, plus whatever moderating effect (or exacerbating effect) you preamp adds.  They will add something.

I have a second system that sounds almost as good as my first and actuall use more (its in my den).  I have an old Pioneer (with transport) feeding a Bel Canto DAC, a Dynaco FM-3 tuner, and an Audionics preamp (handling my phono cartridge)  and each is blessed with individual volume controls.  So they each go into a Zektor solenoid operated switch which in turn feeds the power amp.  Through Thiel 2.2's the system sounds superb.  Meanwhile, my main system feeds through my Audio Research SP-6 which also sounds superb.  You've got to try it to make the decision.