The Best Preamp is no Preamp?

I tried this in the late eighties, when I had a Mission PCM CD player that had a volume control on its remote. I had been playing this through a Musical Fidelity integrated amp, but just for fun one day, I got out its predecessor, the original NAD 3020 which allowed input direct to the power amp stage. The difference was absolutely striking in terms of increased clarity. Because the CD player reverted to max. volume every time it was switched off, I looked at passive preamps. The simplest and cheapest was a QED* switch and potentiometer that took one input and passed it through unchanged, and one that went through the potentiometer. So this added one switch, one potentiometer and an extra pair of interconnects into the system. I could hear it, or was sure I could. Not as good, but more convenient. I also tried a QED remote controlled passive pre-amp that had several inputs, all volume controlled. It wasn’t better.

But moving to other CD players, as they were developing and improving quickly in those days, I had to use one or other passive preamp as none had volume controls. Once I decided to reactivate my LP collection I had to move back to active preamps, and found the sound livelier and more dynamic, even if less starkly clear. I don’t really think now of one or other as better, but just different.

*I wonder what happened to QED? A British manufacturer of very high quality accessories in those days.

Hello All,

My current system consists of:

Quicksilver v4 monoblocks using GEC Ki88's (new issue)

The Truth preamp  or Bottlehead BeePre running GEC 300b tubes

VPI HW-19 Mk IV with a Woody String Theory tonearm and a Soundsmith Zephyr cartridge.

A Bottlehead Eros phone preamp

A Cinemag 1254 SUT

A OPPO 205 CD Player

Speakers are DIY Watt Puppies

I switched from the Eros preamp to the Truth preamp.  While the Eros was very nice it had a little glare in the treble.  The Truth cleared that  up plus the bass was deeper and more defined, the soundstage was bigger and more precise.  So in my system it definitely improved the sound quality.  

Arthur Salvatore @ High-EndAudio.com gives a very good explanation of why this might be.  He also gives a good explanation of the technological aspects of the Truth preamp.  

Hope this helps.

Richard

 

 

I have a Sys passive preamp and tried it on quite a few power amps.It does not get the best out of any of those amps compared to a decent active preamp.

@r27y8u92

 

Thank you for sharing you system. This is really helpful in assessing how pertinent your experience is to a readers system since we all have grossly different systems. 
 

It is great that you experienced such an improvement. Good going.

 

 

To ghdprentice:

My system is as follows.

CD player   Musical Fidelity A3.2 CD (made in 2003 in England)

Turn table   Sansui SR 929 (Denon DL-103R)

Preamp      Onkyo Integra P304 (ca. 33 years old, Japan)

Power amp  Yamaha MX-1 (old, old, 200 watt per channel)

                Cayin 860 mono blocks (4 x EL 34 each)

Speaker      Vienna Mahler (120 lbs each)

All cables     Monster (interconnect, speaker)

Vol. Control  SCHIIT SYS

---------------------------------------

I don't use the Onkyo as a preamp any more, but use for only phono section.

I used to own CJ tube preamp, Plinius preamp, Brystone Preamp, Jeff Roland preamp, etc. But the onkyo does its jot close to the preamps by 90-95%. So, I sold all preamps, keep the Onkyo only. Actually, 2 years ago, I purchased the Onkyo P304 one more from ebay. I used both Onkyos. I made one Onkyo as one channel combining two channel using mono-making Y-cable. Anyway, using 2 Onkyos, S/N (signal to noise ratio) was better, but I found no advantage regarding sound quality.

 

Using the SCHIIT vol. control as a passive preamp, I found my music became a lot better.

(1) Mid - high      very clear, not shrill, not analytical, just like piano is playing in front of me, Trumpet = I could hear metallic feeling just like when I was in high school brass band,...

(2) Bass       exaggerated booming is gone, but true bass from the source was heard. If you like some sound (boob, boob, boom), then I can not discuss my feeling with you.

(3) True to the source music       less component means less additives to the sound. So, if the source music is great, I can feel great. If not good, I hear un-musical sound.

 

I can still remember that Herbert von Karajan said music from CD player was better than that of turntable. He mentioned that to engineers of CD player-developing, 1980s. At the time, so-called audio reviewers said the CD music was so analytical. I think the reviewers barely attended actual concerts, compared to Karajan. Karajan was involved in CD format such as how many minutes in a single CD, etc. I believe Karajan preference (favoring CD against analog) simply because he spent a lot of time in actual performance, not because he was a very famous conductor. 

We have to spend many $ to buy expensive gears.

Expensive power cable = I think this is the most unnecessary item.

 

Best preamp is the one that brings out the best in your setup.

 

Well if you want to experiment with a good active preamp it has probably never been cheaper.You can try /buy one of the cheap Chinese clone preamps like the FM Acoustics 155 copies for about $300 on Ali Express.That is s a superb sounding  active preamp in my opinion.It may not improve the sound of every power amp because there are always preamp/power amp synergies  but suspect it will be a considerable improvement on most .I am talking at least $5000 preamp sound quality.The real thing sold for more like $20,000.

I would normally not recommend things like that but for the sake of killing off the myth that the best preamp is no preamp it is arguably justifiable. I believe that is also an older design on which the patent has expired so anybody can copy it.

@r27y8u92 

 

What is your system? There is a place under your userID to put photos and ID your components.

‘What was your system and what did you swap out?

 

This would be really helpful to understand your experience.

I removed my preamp, and inserted a volume control. The sound became really better, more clarity. Some people said the increased clarity is something ANALYTICAL. Totally non-sense! So-so grade preamp just simply makes audio signal a little bit dull. If you hear your music more analytical or less full (less bass), then you probably have not hear actual music produced by real performances or concerts. I played Tenor sax, trumpet and flute. The actual sound was ear piercing if you listen them too closely to the players.

Warm sound (a little bass, boomy)? No, that's not actual music, that is modified by audio engineers to make sound smooth. If you have many audio sources (CD, tape, phono preamp, etc), then you need a passive preamp which has only a volume controller and a source selector. I am using a potentiometer (=volume control) between a CD player and a power amp. Sound became really better. It looks like there was a big fabric curtain (between me and speakers), and it was removed!

I think that in the absolute majority of cases a good pre active will bring advantages in sound quality, in addition to being perhaps essential for some systems that need that extra gas besides the volume control. But in my particular case, as I have plenty of power and use exclusively the volume of the HQPlayer software integrated into Roon, in principle I don't need a pre. The decision to use it or not was difficult, but after months of alternating I'm choosing not to use it. Main advantages: absolute background silence, discreet improvement in transparency and focus, without prejudice to dynamics, simplification and greater security in the event of a power failure that has already given me some scares. Normally I need to turn on the pre Don Sachs II tube at least 30 seconds before the amplifier and when turning off always in reverse order. The pre provides a slightly warmer tone. My system: PC with HQP/Roon and modem in another room --- ethernet cable (10m) to audio room with urendu/T+A DAC8 DSD line out (no volume control) to Amp Accuphase P-6100 (which has 4 gain positions). The DAC has 2V/22 ohms out and the Accuphase 20Kohms input and 110 W/c/8 ohms output. Audiopax Mandolin II speakers (91 db sensitivity). 

What power amps were you using? 

I used to avoid a preamp for a long time. A friend told me to try his parasound pld/2000 and I could not believe, how much more detail and body it gave to the music. Now I replaced the parasound with a Hegel Pre and I cannot believe it can be any better. Give it a try and you will hear the positive abilities of a preamp.

Tried no preamp for a while. Really liked it for a minute. Bass was good, treble was pretty good. When things got fast it was all together with no definition. I spent about a month on it then moved back. Like it was running out of gas.

Tortuga Audio....Try one

In practice, long speaker cables often cause a loss of bass impact and intelligibility of vocals. This is easily measured and demonstrated.

I agree with the above statement!

My speaker cables are < 1 foot.

 

 There is no substitute for listening.  Sometimes yes, sometimes no.  Depends on your equipment and the ease of controlling volume, plus whatever moderating effect (or exacerbating effect) you preamp adds.  They will add something.

I have a second system that sounds almost as good as my first and actuall use more (its in my den).  I have an old Pioneer (with transport) feeding a Bel Canto DAC, a Dynaco FM-3 tuner, and an Audionics preamp (handling my phono cartridge)  and each is blessed with individual volume controls.  So they each go into a Zektor solenoid operated switch which in turn feeds the power amp.  Through Thiel 2.2's the system sounds superb.  Meanwhile, my main system feeds through my Audio Research SP-6 which also sounds superb.  You've got to try it to make the decision.

@ozzy62

 

While I do like the Leedh volume control on my Lumin T2, I still prefer my Tube Preamp, which adds more body and soul to the presentation.

I doubt it very much, My MP-1 Pre-amp is a permernent keeper!  :-)

If anyone reading this thread has a Lumin streamer in their system and has not tried the LEEDH volume control in the software, you should do so now. Your expensive preamp will find it's way on to Audiogon pretty quickly.

 

That means the pre does change the original music signal into slightly different signal. The modified signal would be good to our ears. Do not praise the preamp that makes poor source better. Just blame the poor source. If you have good source (well-recorded CD for example), you can enjoy the music much better with no preamp. Why does tube-based gears make good sound? Just because the tubes tend to add some distortion to the original signal, and the added signal makes our ears pleasing. The added signal is usually even-order frequencies.

Shorter speaker cables make the over-all sound better? I have to laugh at the guy who says that. Inside the speakers, there are very long coils. Due to limited space condition, the coil's physical shape can not be better than that of speaker cables. Compromised long speaker voice coil and very short speaker cable? Usually, the speaker cable length does not matter very much unless the cables run longer than 50 feet.

A preamp may well not load a source as heavily so the source may sound better due to wider bandwidth and lower distortion.

The choke in a speaker is something very different from the speaker cables! Speaker cables have low inductance while a choke has high inductance. But if we are to take this argument on its face, the correct conclusion would be that since a choke as able to cause highs to roll off and its substantially similar to a speaker cable, the conclusion would be that you really don't want long speaker cables! 

In practice, long speaker cables often cause a loss of bass impact and intelligibility of vocals. This is easily measured and demonstrated. 

 

I have a Schiit Freya+. This pre-amp allows 3 modes of volume control
utilizing relay-switched resisters. Select passive, solid state or vacuum tube amplification.

Experimenting changed many of my original presumptions. Multiple outputs allow for easy bi-amping. Unique value.

 

@pinthrift 

 

👍

Thanks for sharing your experience, Brandon...

The greatest take-away from your post is the importance of "doing the work."  Early on in my audio experience, I hooked up with passionate, energetic music lovers that were excited to do the work necessary to achieve great sound.  My 80's brick & mortar dealer removed his living room picture window to install Altecs, for example.  My 90's mod engineer/friend would spend hours testing isolation approaches, including those "under the hood" of gear.  And yes, changes can prove sideways or negative, but, until you try.

Efforts are always rewarded.  A great preamp in a specific SYSTEM may prove best, or not.  Often, compromises need be made often due to mixing digital and analog gear, whether it be volume controls, wiring approaches and room requirements in placement.  In recent years, I've learned room/loudspeaker integration to be most vital.  Study, experiment with tuning a room (laser ruler a must.)  Arrival timing, room resonances, bass nodes, ceiling and floor bounce, distances between and to your speakers, the tilt of the speakers in how that relates to your listening height.  Experiment, experiment.  When you find *** IT ***, once found, "it" ...will be readily apparent to you.  THEN, everything you do upstream will take on much more life and character in your system.  Experiments with wire, electronic gear, contact enhancement, isolation will begin to reveal themselves once those windows open. 

And yes, many of these things cannot be measured, however, we each own the best testing devices ever created.  I'm squarely in both camps, measurements indeed matter, known science matters to get close, THEN the fun work begins! 

Some experienced listeners seem to have personal favorites in what's most important to address, often, impressed by some specific game changing experience in their journey...amp, TT, speakers...you name it.  Often, that can become the "focus point" for individuals, however, as many have voiced here, everything does indeed matter once the windows open to great sound.  Experiment, experiment. 

Think Positive, Test Negative                              More Peace, Pin

 

I've found over the years that a really good preamp seems to provide to me the best results sonically.  These days, most source components have good output drive, and preamps end up being more attenuator than amplifier.  However, the signal still goes through the preamp's amplification stage and depending on the quality of those components that touch the signal along with the power-supply can provide drive to the amplifier(s), especially with long lead lengths.  Some amplifiers need fairly high input voltage for full output and the input impedance of some amps may require a more robust source signal which is where a great preamp will be better able to drive it.    Yes...  The preamp will add in its own sonic signature (color if you will) but in my experience, has resulted in the best sound for my listening enjoyment.  Obviously, there is no simple answer for this question !  It's basically the exquisite dance of specific components and how they play together for your personal sonic enjoyment...  

A passive pre will allow you to listen to your power amp. If you like what you hear, that may be all you need.

If you don’t like what you hear, you might need to add 2nd harmonic distortion to the signal (active pre) to fatten up the sound, add body and dimension, texture....the good seasoning us audiophiles tend to crave.

If your DAC isn’t 2 volts or you have really long cable runs, an active preamp may be required.

I've always used the CD-direct-to-amp as a sanity check for evaluating how a new preamp sounds.  The direct is always more neutral, but lacks a certain "something".  A lesser preamp will clearly sound worse than direct, but a good preamp will tend to sound bigger, wider, & more dynamic.  I've had a couple pre's that were switchable between active & passive, and I found it interesting to switch between modes.  The passive mode would be more neutral, but I usually left it on active.  Over years and years of use, you'd think I'd just instinctively gravitate towards the position that gave me greater pleasure, and that position was always "active".   

 

Since Enlighten Audio Design (EAD), Theta days in ‘90s.. fast forward to dCS Verdi/Elgar/Purcell/clock to more recent days’ Accuphase 2 boxes, and friend’s Vivaldi stack, MSB Select (complete) double power bases, pre module etc, Esoteric Grandioso stack—still I/we found running through preamps the sound were just more realistically ‘live’ and musical (bluntly~akin to 2D vs 3D rendition of the music). Unless one wants to simplify, or $ave on peripherals (cabling etc.), a great preamp in a top flight system is the way to go.

Maybe someday in the future when pre module in dac or passive improved further can hopefully forgo the pre, but not yet.. imho, ymmv.

I’m digital only and currently using only one input on my preamp, yet it costed more than my speakers—yes call me crazy, but the difference (to me) is rather dramatic and worth its cost.

Agreed!  Even gooder is eliminating power amps (technically).  Music server feeding Weiss 501 DAC/volume control directly to ATC active speakers.  Faster, more dynamic, more detail and only four pieces to reproduce music.

Everybody talks about high quality preamps, which makes over-all sound good. Yes, the pre MAKES (modify) poor sound from poor sources to be good. That means the pre does change the original music signal into slightly different signal. The modified signal would be good to our ears. Do not praise the preamp that makes poor source better. Just blame the poor source. If you have good source (well-recorded CD for example), you can enjoy the music much better with no preamp. Why does tube-based gears make good sound? Just because the tubes tend to add some distortion to the original signal, and the added signal makes our ears pleasing. The added signal is usually even-order frequencies.

Shorter speaker cables make the over-all sound better? I have to laugh at the guy who says that. Inside the speakers, there are very long coils. Due to limited space condition, the coil's physical shape can not be better than that of speaker cables. Compromised long speaker voice coil and very short speaker cable? Usually, the speaker cable length does not matter very much unless the cables run longer than 50 feet.

That’s the only real fun to be had in audio.  Trying something new is a very good thing as long as you don’t blow up your gear. Keeps things interesting anyway. I’ll try it sometime with my Node2i. 

but is there any explanation for how putting a preamp in the signal path when you have a fairly higher-end DAC can make an improvement?

Yes. The explanation is offered earlier on this thread.

I  have tried the dac direct route in my office system.  In the office I am feeding Emotiva XPA 1 monoblocks which drive an older set of VanL quattros.   I tried my Cary 200T Dac direct and the sound was Ok.  I moved the 200T back to another system with a Cary preamp,  well broken in Odessey Kismets monos, and highly Modified VanLs,  the sound is phennominal (to my ears).  

 I have subsequently gone direct from an RME ADI DAC 2 FS into the Emotiva XPA 1s in my office and because of the myriad features of the RME it works extremely well direct to the monos and allows me to compensate for room irregularities in my office / Qi Gong studio.  That said I will look down the line to introduce a little tube coloration into the office setup.   As stated by others it is a matter of taste and system synergy. Each element: cables, wires, power all, add or detract from the overall effect. 

 I have an old Phase Linear 400 power amp. I can and have ran that directly from my CD player to my amp bypassing the pre-amp. Of course having volume controls on your power amp is a must.

A pre-amp gives tone controls and a master on/off switch, remote usability but does not amplify or change the signal, a passive component really.

I have an MSB Discrete/MSB Premier Power Base that I run direct to my Pass Labs 250.8 (with Wilson Audio Sabrina X speakers).  I am a fully digital guy, FYI, so I don’t need analog inputs, although my wife recently commented that she would like to hear some of my vinyl on a turntable for nostalgia purposes.  I too have been wondering about whether to get a tube pre like an Audio Research Ref 5 and whether it will add anything better to the sound. It seems counterintuitive that putting a bunch of wires and circuits into the signal path actually will improve the sound, but seemingly, lots of people with good systems claim that it is the case.  I have an open mind and will see if I can try something before I buy one, but is there any explanation for how putting a preamp in the signal path when you have a fairly higher-end DAC can make an improvement?

To clarify, Marantz SR5015 is NOT a preamp per se. It is a 7.2 AVR designed and manufactured for home theater application. For the price, it is not a poor multi-channel AVR. But when used as a preamp, it just got too many baggages / interferences in one chassis to be able to match well with the rest of system and sound good. It is almost no brainer that the system will sound better by removing it from the signal path.

So removing a poor preamp (Marantz SR5015) makes the system sound better...Got it!

Could it be that this discussion arises from a definitorial problem?

The analogue stage of a DAC generally outputs a signal akin to that of a pre, so all that‘s needed is attenuation and in some cases an analogue input to handle the phono signal. Therefore going passive or direct from a dac seems to obviate the issues one might have when attenuating a signal from a phono amplifier with a passive.

So it comes down to the quality of the attenator in the dac. Admittedly there are steep differences between say a stepped array and crude digital attenuators.

I run an Antelope Zodiac Platinum which via its balanced outputs can even address Ralph‘s bi-amping point and provides single ended and balanced analogue inputs.

The Lumin X1 has an excellent volume control albeit the X1 was expensive but when I sold my preamp, cables, footers the difference was not too bad.

And boy did I improve the sound quality.

ozzy

This has been an on-going topic for a very long time! @phantom_av makes a good point about the quality of the line stage; IME if a passive sounds better its telling you something about the line stage you used for comparison. IMO line stages have been in a sad state of affairs for a long time but if you get a good one there's no going back.

I don't like the problem were a passive sounds fine at full volume (which becomes the source driving the amp) but as you turn down the volume even a little bit the bass loses impact was well as the dynamic character overall.

If you never are able to turn the volume up all the way with a passive you may never find out what you are missing.

You can avoid this problem to a limited degree by using a control of a lower value for example 10K instead of 100K. But at that point a lot of sources will choke as they are not meant to drive impedances that low. 

In addition you have to keep your cables short and be picky about what cables you use. I found out decades ago that if you can place your amps by the speakers and run short speaker cables you get an instant improvement in resolution across the board- but only if you can get the signal to the amps intact. I ran balanced lines for that and so had no problems. So for the last 30 years that is what I've done, and no worries about what cable I've used. They are 30 feet long!

That simply isn't something you can do if you use a passive control. If you have a smaller situation where a meter cable will be long enough then if you're careful (or lucky) you can get it to work quite well. My bedroom system employs a passive control built into the power amplifier which IME is the best place to put it.

@soix 

I just re-read the post and realized the OP was using a damn AVR as a preamp.  And not just any AVR, but a Marantz AVR which, IME is one of the most veiled and colored AVRs out there.  So no wonder when the OP heard the detail and transparency of going direct to the amp he found it revelatory.

yup... that makes what might initially sound like a hard question a really easy one...

If i could save the money and go Passive or no Pre-amp at all i would have done this years back.

Whilst many on here claim no pre-amp is best probbably have not had very great pre-amps. You dont loose details by adding a pre-amp you gain more control on how that power amp works.

The sound becomes less Flat and more dimensional in space but if you going to use some El Chepo pre-amp then prob its best not to use one altogether.

At this rate i would say just buy Active Studio Speakers, Go Direct from DAC to Active Speaker and call it a day, you will get gobs of Detail and dynamics but at the expense of fatigue.

Nothing is better than nothing at all...

With respect to integrated amps, there are some that will put expensive two box solutions to shame. With separates I really believe some gear plays nice with each other and some doesn’t….synergy….   I have have people call BS on this but I believe it’s true.  With an integrated there is less cable, less connections, less to fail hopefully.   So with a good integrated the control and amplifier sections complement each other and are well sorted out.  I have nothing against integrated amps ….   Some awesome ones out there 

@ozzy62 I agree a passive can be preferable to dac only setup. My active pre is in fact dual TVC.

You should audition a Zesto Leto preamp.....you will be a believer 

If you have a strong enough signal to drive a power amp, why add more electronics? You need some way to switch sources and a volume control. Active electronics are not necessary, and, as you have discovered, can only make things worse! Good for you! My testing, evaluating, and office/lab/workroom system has no pre-amp. Don't spend money on what you don't need!

I have owned many preamps most all types as well as integrated etc. And it's about synergy some systems just sound better with active over passive or direct. You can get more impact dynamics and overall better sound quality if your system requires an active over passive. At this time I tend to prefer tube preamplification over my solid-state or passives or direct DAC to the amp. But as I mentioned it depends on the system after all we listen to systems, not components.