Testing Ethernet switch

@badgerdms Every network engineer suddenly also becomes an expert in psychoacoustics

you are 100% right, even though you probably don’t understand it. Psychoacoustics is the perfect description, you hear a difference because you want to, it is all in your head.

@tonywinga a clown is a clown. You have never owned anyone in your entire life.

@jeffrey125 if you look at your system, you can summarize it as “meh”. That is at least what the reviewers of the components you own has said. “Meh”.

on the flip side, my system, every single component has an average review of “details! Transparency! Clarity! Well above it weight class!”.

yeah, meh vs excellence. There is a difference there, you don’t get, I get that, probably because you have never heard a good system. But enjoy your “meh” system.

This is a bad addiction for me, ye old flame war. Better call my sponsor and quit this thread cold turkey. 😀

@koh_i_noor 

More knowledge is nowhere near complete knowledge.

That said - I actually do understand how quite well how Ethernet works. I also  understand digital transmission quite well in general.

Unfortunately, I do not understand why an upgraded switch makes a difference other than perhaps the extraneous noise being carried along. Yet (for the nth time) it is measurable. And I only knew that it was measurable after I listened to the difference. We’re not talking night and day, but we are talking audible.

What I also don’t get is why those of you who think you’re so well versed in such things are unable to understand your own limitations and are correspondingly lacking the intellectual curiosity to even explore further. And, in the process you call all other people who’ve delved into this (manufacturers and consumers) deluded or dishonest. 

Do the work. Explore for yourself. Then come back to us and tell us you found no difference. If you do that, I will accept your viewpoint gracefully. However, until then - your “evidence” is merely your belief. 

Do the damn work before claiming intellectual superiority. Until then - your word isn’t even as good as others who have done the work. Sheesh.

Well I am a "Noob" here but I have tried and kept the SOtM sNH-10G and it made a huge difference in my system. Yes I could hear the difference. There have been many things I have tried over the years and returned as it made little or no difference in my system.

I simply am not that arrogant to say what you hear in your system is false, or you are under the influence of marketing, hyperbole, or a placebo effect. 

There are far to many that speak, write and youtube of the positive effect these switches, cables and tweaks have made in their systems and only really one Linus (than God). Believe what you believe but do not call out the majority.

Be careful Humpty you will have a great fall.

Love how they use the term "noobs" as if everyone other than them are so new to this and naive as can be when, in fact, they are calling out serious and seasoned audiophiles who have relied on their ears so successfully for all this time (decades, in fact) and know what they are hearing. 

All the best,
Nonoise

@koh_i_noor 
 

More of same, since you know better, why don‘t you just ….up?

When you have more technical knowledge some things look obvious that others can’t see. For instance, if someone claimed the system sounded better if there was a 10 gallon vat of steaming split pea soup in the room, most would be skeptical, as we can’t imagine how such a thing could have any impact on the system and the sound that comes out.

So, to me, when there is talk of changing the nature of the ethernet infrastructure, I can see things that most people cannot due to an understanding of physics and digital technology, and such things appear to be completely out of the ream of something that can impact the sound, unless there are some sort of EMI emissions that get into the analog realm. The beauty of digital is that an accurate bitwise copy is always available. Once those bits get into a dac, well that is where a lot of variability can exist. Same with the rest of the analog realm--extremely complex interactions in the overall system.

So, that is how it looks to me. Not going to convince any who has a strong feeling on the subject, but again, we want to make sure noobs hear a few options. At the very least, its safe to say invest in good electronics and maybe room treatments first.

What‘s the point in arguing with omniscient perfection?

Not flat out impossible. You stated earlier in this thread “that (noise) should be handled by the client”. 

Ideally yes. In practice? Perhaps no.

I have offered more evidence of the possibility of why things sound different than you have offered proof of the impossibility of such. We both have beliefs supported by anecdotal evidence - neither of us have solid proof. I acknowledge that. You do not. You are beholden to dogma as much as any of us, but lack the self awareness to acknowledge as much. 

And I can’t help but go back to the notion that you have accused ALL makers of such devices of devious, dishonest practices. This is a claim you cannot (or have not to date) back up with facts, though you keep repeating the same idea that measured noise is irrelevant. Nor are you even willing - by your own admission - to investigate further as quoted below: 

“If ANY obscure possibility existed for what is claimed, yes I would try one. I await said evidence.”

I have offered exactly that. Exactly. You have declined and accused all manufacturers of such devices to be scammers. 

Perhaps you have been trolling us and i fell for it. No more. As you can’t add to the discussion or knowledge base, I’m out.

As I said in POST ONE, if you are a believer, this thread is not for you. It is for those who do not understand the technology to be able to make up their own mind."   

🤣🤣🤣.  All post one did was announce you as a troll.

"Hans said he had no idea what it could be, but he THINKS he heard it. 

One more time, an extra ordinary claim needs extra ordinary proof."

Not even close.  He has reviewed a number of network switches and filters and found significant differences.  It's not something "he thinks he heard".  To quote the latest video on the subject, "there should not be a difference between an audiophile switch or network filter being in place, or not.  But there is.  There CLEARLY is."

There is a difference between obscure issues and flat out impossible.  An advantage of understanding how Ethernet works is I have a better grasp of impossible than those who are still allowing subconscious beliefs in magic. 

As I said in POST ONE, if you are a believer, this thread is not for you. It is for those who do not understand the technology to be able to make up their own mind. 

Unfortunately, one side factual evidence is still only countered by " I believe so"

If you "believe" and it makes you happy, fine. You don't have to give yours up. Be happy.  If ANY even obscure possibility existed for what is claimed, yes I would try one.  I await said evidence. 

@tvrgeek 

Well, since you couldn’t resist, here we go again.

Not knowing exactly what something is does not mean it is irrelevant. You continue to dismiss extraneous signal which is being measured (and heard by some of us). This is not an extraordinary claim.  

I get that you believe your knowledge to be superior in this area. Here’s my observation. 

You know enough to be dangerous. You proselytize as if your knowledge is complete, though clearly, it is not. Nobody’s is. 

In the process, you have indirectly or directly accused every single manufacturer of devices aimed at improving digital playback as being a charlatan - selling snake oil. All of them are dishonest?  There are a lot of them. While I’m sure there are some, I do not accept that all of them are dishonest.  Your overconfidence in this regard is quite stunning. Perhaps you should reach out to one of these dishonest companies to ask them what they’re doing and why?

You have also indirectly or directly accused those of us as having decided to purchase such items as being gullible chumps. 

If you worked for me at my company, I’m guessing I would have let you go, even if you were a particularly gifted engineer. You are not aware of your own limitations and seemingly lack intellectual curiosity. People who believe they know everything tend to make poor employees - because they’re poor learners.  And, they tend to be caustic to high performing teams. 

That’s my read on things. You’ll undoubtably disagree with all of it. It matters not as there’s nothing constructive in continuing this thread.

One more time, an extra ordinary claim needs extra ordinary proof. 

It's actually quite easy, something I have used with success in the past. 

Try it in your own system (buy used or borrow from dealer). If you like it, and you can afford it, game over. At the end of the day, it has to impress YOU! No amount of external "proof" is ever going to be a substitute for actually hearing the component in your own system.

Hans said he had no idea what it could be, but he THINKS he heard it. 

One more time, an extra ordinary claim needs extra ordinary proof. 

@mgrif104 

Hans Beekhuyzen measured it. You dismissed it as irrelevant. Yet, it is there. You believe it cannot impact the sound quality and it’s possible you’re correct. But, you disallow for the possibility that you are not correct. There is noise on the circuit. It can be measured.

Amir, the ASR crew and current fanatics have a history of exactly this. They will claim something could not possibly have any effect, then when a measured difference is shown, they will immediately move the goal posts to saying it’s too small to be audible, then demand double blind tests. This way they never have to admit being wrong.

They have been doing this since long before the current networking debates.

Oh yeah, it's the placebo effect when the sound stage suddenly jumps two feet on both sides.  That's really hard to discern 🤣🤣.  Lists of "boutique" hardware at least demonstrate that my system is more than capable of revealing subtle (and not so subtle) differences.  

The more you ramble, the more you seem to ignore actual empirical evidence in the area that we are actually all here for, listening to music, and instead just fall back on why it's impossible for anyone to actually hear those things.

It's so sad when science becomes nothing but blind faith and religion. 

I have been quiet on this thread or a while as it devolved.  I am going to step back in gently to point out to @tvrgeek that I did point you to proof that other things are carried along. Hans Beekhuyzen measured it. You dismissed it as irrelevant. Yet, it is there. You believe it cannot impact the sound quality and it’s possible you’re correct. But, you disallow for the possibility that you are not correct. There is noise on the circuit. It can be measured. 

May I suggest that we discontinue the discussion. Some of us have experience beneficial impact from improved network switches. Others believe that cannot be the case. There is some evidence to support both positions. Neither position is fully validated by what is known or what can be measured. 

Let’s leave it there.

Peace.

@koh_i_noor

A really diamond comment from a first time poster: keep up the good work!

I understand network technology and see this the same as tvgeek. Some can benefit from the insight, others can keep their views to the contrary—I do encourage noobs to be skeptical and seek information in many places before spending money. 

@cleeds 

Some people are incorrigible, know it all and therefore best ignored. Thanks for fighting their abuse, anyway.

tvrgeek

Those of us who are engineers have pointed to real experts on how Ethernet works. We are fully open to new information that can be explained in this universe. 

So is everyone else here. You hold no exclusivity in that regard.

Those who believe in only their ears have offered no argument than to attack others.

It's silly to portray yourself as a victim because no one here has attacked you. If you insist you've been victimized, alert the moderators to the offensive posts and they'll resolve it for you.

That leaves placebo effect or an extraordinary claim.

And your false claims and ill logic. Good grief.

Extraordinary claims, that "other things carried along" need some evidence. 

No one here owes you anything at all. You're not entitled.

Those of us who are engineers have pointed to real experts on how Ethernet works. We are fully open to new information that can be explained in this universe.  Those who believe in only their ears have offered no argument than to attack others.  "Your system is not resolving enough" is nothing but an assumption smokescreen for someone with no argument.  I suggest looking up the topic of argument fallacies. 

That leaves placebo effect or an extraordinary claim. Many of us understand the placebo effect and that you "hear" what your mind wants you to hear. If you hear it better, good for you. Be happy. To go the step further and claim because you hear it it must be real is where your argument breaks down.  Extraordinary claims, that "other things carried along" need some evidence. 

Just because someone in an engineer does not mean they do not want to achieve better sound.  Instead of making extradentary claims that are outside known physics, maybe it would be more beneficial to understand more on how we hear so you can go down a path that improves the actual sound reproduction.  

Ethernet moves bits from one location in memory to another location in memory on a different device where it can be accessed by the client's application.  That is all it does. It can't reach past that location in memory because someone wishes it to be so. 

Lists of boutique hardware do not change physics.  Missing is your test method and description of the resolution of the tests.   At what point in client memory are you comparing the data to what point in the host? 

These threads always crack me up, with some folks insisting other folks "prove" something all the while ignoring the actual reason folks are here (i.e., how things sound).  Every network engineer suddenly also becomes an expert in psychoacoustics.  Like actual listening threatens their worldview, the Luddites of the scientific community.

In my experience, the sonic difference (and what's good or bad) is largely system-dependent and also dependent on the end sound each listener is looking for (newsflash, not everyone wants neutral).

In my systems I have tried the Uptone Audio Ether Regen, the SOTM Switch (with the reclocker), the English Electric switch, and the Ansuz X-TC.  All of them made an audible difference, some more than others.  Honestly, if someone pops the Ansuz into their rig and they can't hear a difference they are either deaf or their system lacks the resolution to hear it.  It's that simple.  More clarity, a wider soundstage, and tighter more detailed bass.   It's not subtle in the least.  Same with the EtherRegen, but in a whole different way.  That's the classic, more relaxed, less harsh sound.  I came in not expecting much and was really surprised at what I heard.  I tested all of these switches in both of my main rigs and while my preference for which switch worked best in each rig was different, the fact that each switch made a difference in both rigs was impossible to ignore.  If you can't handle people using actual experience and trusting their own ears I suggest heading over to ASR and genuflecting at the foot of Amir.  You will love it over there, trust me.

Equipment used to test--Fleetwood DeVille SQs, Volti Rival SEs, Backert Labs Rythem 1.3, McGary SA1E, Merason DAC1 MkII, Technics SU-R1000, Innuos Zenith MkIII, Innuos Pulse, Sonore Optical Rendu & Deluxe Optical Module, HiFi Rose RS130 using both ethernet and optical connections, Border Patrol SE-i DAC, Linear Tube Audio power supplies.

For your analogy, food is good because the recipe and ingredients are good. Not because some reviewer says so. Electronics are the same. 

But you are missing something critical: Ingredients are not just ingredients, the source or quality of those ingredients matter. If someone thinks they can just get "the recipe" for chocolate, slap some cocoa, butter, sugar and milk together and end up with Cote d'Or they are sadly mistaken, and many know this from experience. But did they ask to have it tested or measured after cooking? No, that would be silly; they just tasted it. Please, tell me a "food testing machine" that can measure the quality of chocolate to take the subjectivity of tasting it out of the question. Same with wine. Or your favourite spirit. Or beer. Oh wait, I got it: your mouth. Who claims they are all the same, and buying chocolate from Belgium is snake oil, and those chocofools wasted their money. Nobody, they would be ridiculed. 

When it comes to construction or metal composition in a speaker and the money someone pays for quality somehow this process is different? 

That is a foolish comparison 

you need respectable components throughout , my brother owns the $3k Innous 

Ethernet switch by far a Big improvement built from the ground up,

for most people this SW8 Ethernet switch makes areal world difference 

and use at least a $200+ power cord.this Ethernet switch has a Talema linear power supply,low noise regulators, ands OCXO oven  controlled clock ⏰ 

it’s a excellent value  for $599 and yes it makes a difference in smoothing out the rough edges and blacker background myself and 4 others I know own one .

it takes 250 hours to fully runin  .

https://www.beatechnik.com/lhy-audio

I appreciate that.  Most everyone here loves music and loves hifi.  They want to know what is good and what doesn’t work so well.  The hard spots come sometimes because of the wide cross section of people with various years of experience, listening skills and technical understanding that participate on these forums.  The gaps can cause friction.  Some here can afford top end gear while others can only wish for some gear that is less than 25 years old.  Some here have high level technical skills while others know just enough to turn their system on.  We all need to be mindful of these differences and remember that everyone’s goal here is good hifi.

I stepped into hifi as a DYI’er in the late 80s with sound per dollar as the top goal.  I slowly transitioned into higher end hifi over the years to doing an almost no holds barred upgrade to my system a few years ago.  (That was after someone told me that I can’t take it with me).  I got tickets to CES in Chicago in 1989.  That was one of the best days of my life.  (Second to my wedding day, of course.  I’m sticking to that).  Spent the day at the hotel across the street seeing and hearing all of the hifi gear.  My buddy and I snickering at all of the expensive “hifi” cables.  We thought it was crazy at the time.  Look at me now.

 I agree totally, this forum is audio applications and most are not coms people, but we use coms and as I am one, ( yea, and I too have a stack of classes and certifications) I was trying to help those who are not.  If you don't want that help, fine, don't read my posts. How it's made does define how it works.   

For your analogy, food is good because the recipe and ingredients are good. Not because some reviewer says so. Electronics are the same. 

Disparaging members does not help anybody. A couple members can't help themselves. Your posts are usually far above that. 

The Geek is like a man standing outside a fine restaurant staring through the window at the people inside enjoying their meals.  He won’t go in.  Instead he stands at the door asking everyone going in or out if they know the recipes and the ingredients of the food served there.  Of course, they would look at him with incredulity and say the food is excellent, who cares about the recipes.  If I want a good meal I will come here to eat.

An excerpt from JB’s memoir’s.  “I remember as a young man working with my good buddy Al Gore to invent the internet.  I said to him, you know, one day people are going to stream music on this internet thing we are inventing.  So we need to get this right.”

C’mon man.  We are mostly Audio Applications Specialists, AAS’s on these forums, not telecommunications equipment designers.  You are on the wrong forum if you are looking for design details of the equipment.  Should have figured that out by now.  Just get yourself a decent audio grade network switch and some good quality ethernet cables and enjoy the music.  The proof is in the pudding- not how it was made.

True colors. Batman and Robin. 

Amir believes classical measurements are the end all. He does not even want to discuss the points made by the lead engineer who designed his test equipment that these classical measures are incomplete. His measurements are well done and can provide some insight as a starting point. He does not believe in magic, and for the topic of this thread, he does understand what an Ethernet switch is. He is a degreed engineer BTW. 

Again, if anyone has ANY idea on what these "other" factors carried along are, please speak up. Being offensive  is not a valid argument and neither is accursing someone of deception. 

@tonywinga, Amir Majidimehr (toxic dude going back a long time), founder of ASR has gotten banned from almost every forum he had accounts with. It would be safe to assume that he has been back/exists on the same forums now with different hidey accounts.

Him or other dudes indoctrinated by him are not worth a blood pressure pill.

All good @fredrik222 think what you like. We love the Sonners and we are happy they sound perfect in our room. Synergy is the key and you will never find that in the specsheets.

Bye bye boy wonder.

Freddy, Freddy, Freddy.  You have succumbed to your emotions by shouting “Snake Oil” (same as your cohort, the Geek) which means that you have lost the technical argument.  “Snake Oil” is a meaningless term, an emotional term used to sling mud at someone or something when out of exasperation you cannot think of anything else reasonable to say.

And before you go there:  Clown is a technical term and I defined it as such.  You keep calling me a clown but by definition, I am not.  Ok, maybe I am but I still have great sounding streamed music and TV picture.

Does anybody think anything useful can come out of these puerile exchanges?  All they do is shut down a useful thread. Think before you type!

@jeffrey125  low end speakers are low end speakers, but I am always interested in hearing new systems. But going back to your comments on resolving, yours is not a resolving systems, sure expensive DAC, but your speakers are holding your system back. And going after others saying they don’t have a system that resolves enough when your own systems can’t resolve at all, is hilariously hypocritical.
 

And it doesn’t change anything, “audiophile” Ethernet products are snake oil and nothing more, as evidenced by OPs link in the first post. 

82% of internet statistics are made up, including a lot in this thread.

Jerry

@jeffrey125  your speakers are not good. So if you think you have a resolving system, you are truly a lost cause.

at least tonywinga has a good system, I have heard those speakers, and while i don’t want them, they are good. Better than mine. Yours are light years behind mine. But keep on trucking thinking your speakers are resolving. Big L In life is going nowhere. 

Totaly Clueless @fredrik222 Yep owned again and agin fly away Robin. Lot's of stuff you have never heard including a good DAC. Such a maroon. 

Enjoy Boy Wonder. Have music to listen to. 

@tonywinga owned me? lol, by your own definition you are a clown. 🤡

Post a supporting article that shows that the author has any resemblance of expertise. You cannot. 

@jeffrey125 lol, you do not own anything, anybody who even says a thing like that is just a big L in life. 
 

your speakers are 5k new, and while I have never heard them, they seem ok-ish in the lo-fi range, certainly not punching up to mid-fi. 

What a fascinating discussion with a very predictable arc. You can't hear a difference. No, I can hear a difference. You can't hear a difference because my science says you can't hear a difference. No, I can hear a difference because my science is better. You can't hear a difference because I have more certifications. No I can hear a difference because my certifications are better. Well, you can't hear a difference because my system is better than yours. No, you can hear a difference because my system cost more money than yours which is the ultimate measure of knowledge. Only one step away from the natural conclusion of all such comparisons. I appreciate the passionate views, and it is entertaining
 

One solution might be for those who believe they can hear a difference to invest their money in audiophile switches, and those who believe you cannot hear a difference to do the opposite

Otherwise, it seems unlikely that will we will reach consensus 

not expecting any Perry Mason moments here 

Dear Freddy, say what you like.  I owned you in my last post. 

@jeffrey125 good riddance, 20k DAC with 5k speakers and 2k amplifier and “I’m done” as a comment really shows that you have nothing to contribute.