None of my current or planned audio gear comes from China or Mexico. Tariffs are a non-factor in my world of audio, but I do recognize some quality gear does come from China for sure. With the exception of my speakers (UK) and TT (Slovenia), all my gear is made in the USA.
Tariffs and sky high audio prices.
With the Chinese tariffs taking hold on 100% of the imports and maybe even on Mexico forthcoming, the audio industry is going to see another big jump in their sky high prices. Anyone making purchases ASAP to get lower prices from existing inventory before post tariff products enter the marketplace?
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I’m in canada. i don’t see no tariffs.... Regardless, what the tariffs are doing is speeding up the diversification of manufacturing facilities to the entire far east. And that’s a good thing, for everyone. Centralization kills, as the the only thing it consolidates, in the end - is power. Made in Thailand, made in Vietnam, made in Malaysia, made in the Philippines, etc...such notices are starting to be more prevalent on the back of gear. |
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What needs to be closely watched is the price of gas. We import 600,000-700,000 barrels of crude from Mexico on a daily basis and Mexico is our largest buyer of our refined gasoline at over 1million barrels a day. Factor in the cost of gas when transporting goods and you'll see an even larger bump in the end price of your audio gear. All the best, Nonoise |
I suspect that we would all agree that tariffs create an upward pressure on price while at the same time, competition creates either a leveling or downward pressure. I wouldn't be surprised if a year from now, looking back, overall audio prices went up 5-10%...not 25%. And, an unintended but likely consequence is that preowned gear will be a little bit more attractive and the downward price trend my reverse. |
If Chinese seriously restrict export of rare earth elements to the US, directly and indirectly, prices certainly will go up because of that too. Tariffs and other interesting moves are also economical - ordinary people will have to pay more. One does not have to buy high end audio but everyone, well almost, buys phones computers and other stuff. Brave new world is not only going to be quite a mess it is going to be more expensive as well. Good luck, brothers. |
I don’t see this as a solely political issue. We talk about audio and higher prices will effect ALL of us because of gas going up (as nonoise pointed out) and the parts we get from China that go into US made audio (as Elizabeth mentioned). So this is a very relevant topic, despite the political nature of tariffs. |
I'm basically against tariffs because they are in reality a VAT tax on the U.S. consumer. But, when it comes to China, I'm all for pressuring them with tariffs. China is our economic enemy, soon to become our military enemy. They steal our technology. If a U.S. Corporation wants to manufacture in China, China insists on a 51% control of the business. This allows them to steal the patents. The manipulation of their currency is detrimental to us also. So is their dumping of products on our shores at less than cost with the intent of driving U.S. competition out of business. Will these tariffs on Chinese goods hurt in the short term? Yes ... but its the long term that counts. We can talk about China stealing our military secrets later ... Frank |
Yeah, we better not go too far or the moderator will cancel this thread in no time. I'll just say that they are not our enemy unless we make them so. If we go into fair and unfair and how it all comes into being it will become increasingly interesting and unflattering to anyone on all sides of all oceans at all times. |
nonoise ... One thing we can agree on is the fact that you and I, and others on this site, enjoy one of the greatest hobbies in existence, and that is the recreation of music to the highest degree possible in our own homes. If you lived within driving distance, I'd love to have you over for a listening session. Frank |
@oregonpapa - The only reason we have an economy; the US Dollar is currently the world’s standard currency. Too bad, it’s backed by nothing but trust that we can repay the debts, incurred by the government and owed by every American citizen, whether they’re aware it’s owed or not. China has been hoarding gold for decades(if not centuries) and it’s currency/economy is backed by gold. The US Dollar is backed by imagination("fiat money"). Just wait, ’til the rest of the world catches on, the Juan takes center stage in the world economy and renders your, "money" worthless. Keep your eyes open/coming soon, to a neighborhood near YOU(unfortunately/hope I’m wrong)! (https://www.rt.com/business/453600-china-gold-dollar-shift/) (https://moneyweek.com/499249/how-much-gold-does-china-have-a-lot-more-than-you-think/) and (https://www.dinardirham.com/the-rise-and-fall-of-fiat-currencies/) |
rodman99999 ... You are exactly right in every respect. There is a reason that the money issue isn't taught in our government schools. It has been said that if Americans were to ever wake up to what has been done to their money, there would be a revolution by morning. Look at the effects ... In 1965, at the age of 25, I bought a brand new home in Huntington Beach, California. I paid the grand sum of $24,750 for it. My payments were $147.00 per month, and that included taxes and insurance. That same home today would top $600,000 easily. The question is ... did the value of the home increase, or did the value of money decrease? I suspect by your above post that you know the answer. :-) And by the way, in addition to that new home, I had two cars, one of which was new. It was a 1965 Plymouth Belvedere hardtop coupe with the 383 engine. I bought it right off of the showroom floor for $3,500. I had two kids, and my wife stayed home with the kids as a full-time Mom. It wasn't necessary for her to work. What did I do for a living that afforded all of this? I had a bottled water route and worked on a 100% commission basis. One of the last of the hard physical jobs. They still guard Fort Knox, but not to guard the gold. They guard it to keep the secret that there is no gold left in Fort Knox. Here's a good book for those interested to read: https://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Creature-from-Jekyll-Island-A-Second-Look-at-the-Federal-Reserve/192932931805?epid=111597646&hash=item2cebb2e8dd:m:mDRwSYEPazkKkqKmNBMs1cQ Frank PS: Even though I'm a good cook, I no longer have dinner parties. But, if anyone is interested, give me a heads up for a listening session. If anyone is going to the Long Beach show this coming weekend, give me a heads up. We'll be there on Saturday and we can tip a beer together. |
Monetary policy can be pretty complicated and frankly, who cares if the dollar is backed by gold or not. The whole premise of gold backed currencies is the promise that its backed by gold. You can always take all of your cash and buy gold(or British pounds, or the Euro, etc), still a free country. The US population has almost doubled since 1965 and if dollars were finite(as defined by being backed by a set amount of gold), you would have a crazy supply/demand imbalance. Lastly, I don't necessarily want to hold commodities where other humans are grossly exploited to mine it. Sometimes there's no alternative (some rare earth materials are inhumanely harvested, some not). The mining history on the African continent is bleak (and originated by non-Africans) and don't get me started on diamonds. Its awesome that in 1965, housing was so affordable. The post war boom in Cal and elsewhere made alot of people who purchased real estate look pretty smart. At the end of the day though, the neighborhood where you purchased was probably red-lined to people of color. The good old days were not that great and the best of times lie ahead. |
@oregonpapa Thanks for the offer of a listening session. I rarely get out but if and when I decide to hit the Ventura area, I'll give you a ring. Alas, I have to agree with @ghasley when it comes to our monetary policy. Living in the past is a fine way to reminisce but it's an untenable argument to enforce such regulation based on today's way of doing things. All the best, Nonoise |
^^^ ghasley & nonoise ... Here's an essay that spells it out pretty succinctly: http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion/Greenspan.html Frank PS: nonoise .... You would be more than welcome at my place. The system is sounding incredible at this point. The multitude of tweaks have had a cumulative effect and has brought the system far beyond what I ever knew was possible in a "modest" system. PSPS: ghasley ... the diamond issue is truly unbelievable. We are in agreement there for sure. |
Here’s some gold leaf food for thought on why the gold standard wasn’t much of a standard to go by: https://www.moneyandbanking.com/commentary/2016/12/14/why-a-gold-standard-is-a-very-bad-idea All the best, Nonoise |
@oregonpapa Thanks for the link. I have seen that article/treatise many years ago and its important for you to know that the version you linked has been edited...and its one man’s opinion: Alan Greenspan’s, and it was from the perspective he had then almost 20 years ago. This was prior to the dot.com bubble-burst and more importantly, prior to the great recession that his version of monetary policy contributed to to a large degree. If the answers were easy, then proper monetary policy would be easy and everyone would adopt the same policies worldwide...unless they were trying to solve different problems ie:tipping the scales their way. I offer this opinion with the deepest respect I can extend to you that everyone’s opinion deserves the same objective examination. At its very root, once people have savings/resources, they want to protect them, especially if they are aging. I get that. Many want no taxes while expecting government programs to take care of their needs in their old age (health, safety, transportation, social security, etc). They don’t want to deploy resources to help others in need, be they domestic or foreign, and yet many fail to recognize that failing to help others comes with immense costs domestically (law enforcement, prisons, crime, insurance, healthcare, the lack of an educated populace) and its immeasurable if we fail in foreign generosity (war, famine, trade, health crises, religious extremism) not to even mention the morality of failing to do the right thing for your neighbors. I hear many speak of Social Security as their right...the I paid in mentality. Maybe everyone should just get a check for the total amount they paid in compounded at the average rate of inflation over that period? Its then that people will sober up and realize they don’t pay anywhere near as much in as they get out in terms of real dollars. the same goes for other services: healthcare, education, etc, etc. Many on this site pay enormous amounts of income taxes, 6 or 7 figures per year. They are rarely griping about storing their wealth and "protecting their savings" from the "welfare statists" as the article mentions. The paranoid who read "investment" services like these need to understand clearly they are playing on fear because they only offer one service for sale: selling gold to extremely scared people. A balanced portfolio (not in a mattress) of equities, bonds and real estate will always outperform gold over time. A proper society can’t tax cut its way out of its challenges any more than it can tax its way out. The circuitous route in this post is to say that there are many levers in an integrated economy, just like in audio. Change a cable, a component, etc and everything else is affected. Greenspan is brilliant but Bernacke saved the US economy from ruin. Neither are absolutely right and neither absolutely wrong. Now what? |
Thanks for the enjoyment of reading every ones posts. You people make me laugh and I enjoy coming to this site. Gold has not backed our currency in some time, that is nothing new. It is backed by the faith that we can repay the debt same as you having a mortgage on your home. A little over 70% of each dollar goes to pay the monthly bills of our government. Not much left over for our government buying a nice audio system! Someone mentioned going to China. Well if you are in the middle class your annual salary would about $8,000. @ghasley - if I remember correctly, you run out of your SS contribution in like 3 years of your retirement. But people are living 20 years after retiring. There is also the fact that there are less people contributing to SS versus people who are retired so there is a big drain there. I just had a client move to New Jersey from Canada. She told me that health care is free! 53 to 54% tax rate and if you need a hip replacement, you have to get in line as that is not a procedure that you can obtain quickly like here in the US. I pay high enough taxes but 53% ouch! Anyone in NJ/NYC area. We have a few planned get togethers. Let me know, |
Canada's health system is actually quite admirable, and this is coming from a lifelong US citizen/resident. The health system there works quite well if you think of it as basically a huge HMO. Your description of "you have to get in line" is only applicable if you want the free version of the hip replacement. If you are willing and able to pay for it without expecting reimbursement, you can. Any Canadian who can afford it can get a new hip tomorrow in Canada, the USA, Switzerland...basically anywhere you want to go and pay for it out of your own pocket. It is a choice for most to wait for the free hip replacement. |
I love this thread. I hope we can inject enough audio in it to keep it solvent. ;-) ghasley ... Thank you for your well thought out post. Some real food for thought there. You've made a good point about Social Security not being a "right," and instead, an "entitlement." One thing that was missed was any comment about those who pay in over decades and pass on prior to retirement age and get nothing, nor do their heirs. While I agree that many receive more than they paid in due to longevity, those who pass on early make up some of the difference. As of this date, there is no money in the Social Security trust fund. It has been "borrowed" to pay for other government expenses. Money taken (by force) from today's workers, are not put into the trust fund but are used to pay current recipients. Bernie Madoff comes to mind here. Do you consider Social Security a retirement benefit, or is it a tax? Is it a solvent government program as promised long ago by the FDR administration, or is it a Ponzi scheme of enormous proportions? Have you ever checked out the private system being used in Chile? Here are some links: https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/chiles-social-security-lesson-us https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2018/02/02/the-overwhelming-case-for-chiles-private-social-security-system/ Take care ... Frank |
Chinese will get us a free head replacement in no time. With Chinese heads. Then we will see things as they should be seen. And they know that no one is going to repay those debts, not a problem, they use money as a weapon and as a tool to absorb everything there is to absorb. So no, they are not enemies, they are a competing civilization. Imperial China is forever. |
Back to gold for a moment. I'm not sure that it is good from the standpoint of backing currency....or from the standpoint of owning mines. Getting it out of the ground and turning it into 99% pure bricks has an operating/production cost in the $600 per oz range...now add the cost of buying the mining property, royalties and fees to the countries you operate in, reclaiming the land....and you are between $900-1000 per oz total cost. So, if gold were not a commodity but a product that sold in the 2x cost range ...it would likely be in the $1700-2000 per oz. For the last 10 years it has pretty much been in the $1300 range with a high of $1900 and a low of $900. |
rodman99999 writes: The only reason we have an economy; the US Dollar is currently the world’s standard currency. Too bad, it’s backed by nothing but trust that we can repay the debts, incurred by the government and owed by every American citizen, whether they’re aware it’s owed or not. China has been hoarding gold for decades(if not centuries) and it’s currency/economy is backed by gold. The US Dollar is backed by imagination("fiat money"). Just wait, ’til the rest of the world catches on, the Juan takes center stage in the world economy and renders your, "money" worthless. Keep your eyes open/coming soon, to a neighborhood near YOU(unfortunately/hope I’m wrong)! A lot of which is correct and shows he's paying attention. Of course its not the "only" reason we have an economy. Go back far enough, to the beginning, it was tariffs that made British and other imported goods more expensive, that in turn made domestic goods more profitable and led to decades of the strongest economic growth the US has ever had. With zero inflation too, I might add. (The cost of a bushel of corn was the same from the 1600's for 300 years! What came 300 years later? The Fed was created in 1913.) Lamestream media does such a good job delivering fake news that most people see gold as an anachronism and know pretty much nothing about how money works. Even though its hard to see the national interest in pretty much any of the many military actions we've been engaged in without knowing. One anchor of the USD is the agreement Kissinger worked out with the Saudi's to require payment for oil with USD. This created global demand to suck up the excess supply we created with our deficit spending. All that money creation without the oil payment demand and the US would have seen massive inflation. Instead it was the whole world that got the inflation. When you hear someone say the US exports inflation this is what they're talking about. Saddam Hussein started selling his oil for Euros. Can't have that. No more Saddam. We were told one reason. Anyone who understands monetary theory knows the real reason. Now you do too. The world, and the US, was just fine with Muhammar Qaddafi. Even when he started building nukes, Reagan sends him a message, what's one cruise missile between friends? But then he wanted to launch a gold coin currency for the Arab world. Way too close to home, he got it even worse than Saddam. In the end, so to speak. Both these guys by the way held many tons of gold. Gold that somehow disappeared. In spite of their territory being under US military lock-down. Yeah. Right. So who are the Bad Guys now? China and Russia. The two countries on the planet adding most consistently to their official gold stores. The two countries working most diligently and cooperatively to move the world towards trade settlement in currencies other than the dollar. China even has the nerve to start conducting actual physical gold bullion settlement in Yuan. As far as audio gear goes, it seems to me we will do just fine. We already have some if not most of the world's best high end audio manufacturers. If tariffs drive up the cost of cheap imports it seems to me we can look forward to even more great gear being made where it should be, right here in America. |
