ISSUE: Change your MONITOR speakers or change your NAIM electronics
Somebody gave you some dodgy and incomplete advice by ignoring key influencing factors and pushed their fave NAIM bias on you.:
All brand components have their own bespoke sonic signature , That’s why system synergy ( or conversely a lack of it …) is so important when cobbling together a full system.
NAIM electronics is a fine brand that is one that polarizes listeners. When you do your research , you may find that NAIM’s sound divides the listeners into either a love it or hate it camp. One size does not fit all ….Sure ….NAIM can sound lovely with certain speakers, but yours don’t seem to fit.
My personal audition experience with MONITOR speakers and also my observations with them at audiofests suggests MONITOR is a better suited to avoid NAIM ( see polarization divide above) . CYRUS and MONITOR were paired at an audiofest I attended a couple of years ago.
Others I would audition are
- Sim Audio Moon
- Musical Fidelity
- Cambridge Audio
- Exposure
- Arcam ( you already know how much you liked this ,,,)
Alternatively…. Yes …. NAIM can be a fine partner with numerous other Brit speaker brands . Think HARBETH, SPENDOR, ATC ….
TAKEAWAY
Go audition alternate stablemates to MONITOR , or conversely audition better pairings with NAIM . There is no singular silver bullet magic solution in these forums.
Some drive Fords….some drive Chevys.
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I am sorry to hear that your upgrade did not go as planned. I am not familiar with the sound of Naim equipment, but regardless it is on the low end power-wise for the speakers. I could not find exact specs on the speakers as there are a lot of Monitor Platinum models, but I am guessing that the impedance curve is probably not favorable for the Naim amp. Based on what you feel is missing from the sound, I suggest starting with a new power amplifier that has more wattage, and performs better at lower impedances and is known to have a touch of warmth. Budget will drive your choices of course, I highly recommend looking at the used market here and on USAM.
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I am not the only person who likes Naim digital gear but not their amplifiers. I would focus on finding a substitute there. If you can get your hands on other interconnects and speaker cables you can try something different. Naim amps are somewhat sensitive to choice of cabling, particular the speaker wires. If that doesn't do it, look to what you changed which you did not like which is the amp and linestage. The components that affect the sound the most are the speakers, followed by the amplifier and then the linestage.
The only way you can determine what amps will do it for you is to audition some candidates, preferably by borrowing them and using them in your system. For solid state, I suggest looking at brands like Ayre and Lavardin. These deliver a sweet sound that is quite different from that of the Naim amps.
But, my own favorite amplification is tube amps, particularly lower powered tube amps. I don't know the specific requirements of your Monitor speaker, but, it is often the case that people are satisfied with amps of much lower output than they would normally consider when it comes to tube gear. I suggest that you look at an integrated amp from Synthesis Audio (Italian).
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+1 @akg_ca
Have the Naim pieces had time enough to fully break in? If not,that may be the problem. If it has, then you have a synergy problem. It’s not a lack of wattage. 60 wpc is enough to power the speaker which are 90db efficient. The amp and speakers don’t play well together. Change the amp/pre or the speakers
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Personally a fan of Arcam, I feel it's highly underrated so going off that was a mistake IMHO. I’d avoid getting onto the cable merry go round personally. EIther go back to Arcam or consider Parasound or Luxman as good directions.
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Go back to the Arcam if you liked it before.
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OP:
I’ve been thinking about your original set up and what you were convinced to change to. Arcam and Monitor Audio are great, but extremely neutral. For many audiophiles they are too laid back and warm sounding. They crave the music to have some bite, extra emphasis in the upper midrange and/or treble. IMHO, B&W and McIntosh fit in this category. If you were really happy with Arcam/Monitor Audio (and I would be) then those giving you advice to go to Naim and other cables fit in this category.
You don’t have to crave the B&W / Mc sound to be a real audiophile. Get what you like and stick to it.
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One of my most accomplished audio buddies is a fan of NAIM amps and preamp. He pairs them with Focal Electra 906, and prefers the NAIM over some very good Cary tube gear.
The most important thing is that you like the sound. It's hard to say where the issue is for you, but it's always very personal, and of course interactive with the rest of a given system. It might help if you could give some hints as to whether it's too bright, or too dull, lacking bass, booming bass, etc. Have you tried adjusting the speaker placement a bit to increase or decrease bass reinforcement, and toe in? I fine tuned my system with things like cables, power supply upgrades, placement, etc., and other stuff that's supposed to be barely audible, but yet it's made the difference between being good and spectacular with pretty much the same gear.
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Someone told you that Naim is better than Arcam. Wow...
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One of my most accomplished audio buddies is a fan of NAIM amps and preamp. He pairs them with Focal Electra 906, and prefers the NAIM over some very good Cary tube gear.
p.s.: I failed to mentioned that his preference for NAIM products is very specific to certain model numbers, but I don't know which ones he prefers.
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Chalk this up to an expensive lesson learned — never just blindly follow a salesperson’s (or anyone’s) advice because your ears are the only thing that matters. A good dealer should let you borrow equipment for a day or two to let you hear it in your system, and in this case that would’ve told you everything you needed to know. Time to start over and get rid of the Naim amp/pre so you can start enjoying music again. Obviously Arcam is a good place to start, but their sound could’ve changed over time so again don’t just buy blindly. Luxman and Parasound were mentioned and would also be worth exploring, and I’ll add Ayre as another good candidate. I’d try to get an amp with at least 100Wpc to make sure you have enough headroom for your speakers. Best of luck.
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FOCAL speakers and NAIM electronics are the same company now .
https://www.focalpoweredbynaim.com
No small wonder that your buddy suggested the pairing out of one or more of possible reasons:
-possible EZPZ convenience? Dunno
- possible limited audio brand experience …dunno again…,
, or just plain considerable personal bias simply cuz he likes them! but in total who cares now ?
But to carve out 50% of that bespoke synergy match he enjoys, and arbitrarily stapling it to your speakers and then selling it to you blindly was a gross disservice to you.
TAKEAWAY
Resulting fix = a partial or full system replacement for you that is not insignificant to your wallet drain.
Yes, FOCAL with NAIM make a decent enough pairing IMO,….. but regardless, that duo combo never has and still does not stir my drink FWIW.This hobby is very personal journey with a “like” or “dislike” outcome that no post in this forum can predict for you,
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Monitor Audio speakers are fairly dry, analytical, definitely not sweet or warm. (From what I had and heard)
https://speakerchoices.com/
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I've owned several speakers(several Wilson Audio, Aerial Acoustics, Dynaudio Devore Audio, Revel, Artemis EOS, and a couple more). I currently own Monitor Audio PL500 II speakers. They are like most decent speakers and can sound dry, analytical, sweet, or warm. It depends on the ancillary components and room acoustics. I tried a DCS Rossini APEX and the sound was unbearably analytical, but with other DACs the sound is sweet or on the slightly warm side. The recording is another variable that has just as much impact on the tonality of my system, as the components..
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Thanks to ALL of you for your kind and helpful replies!
Truth be told, for last 2 years I almost stopped listening to the music because of lack of understanding what happened wrong and how to change it. You encouraged me enough to try again. :)
I finally decided to get rid of Naim amp & preamp and come back for a while to an old Arcam amp & preamp. Let's see how it sounds now to my ears. There's another question to ask as I've been thinking about a tubed DAC like Lampizator Baltic, but I have no idea if it will be a good match up with Monitor Audio + Arcam, but I also don't know if Arcam will be replaced with something else... Should I buy Lampi and then try to match up a amp to it or the other way around?
@akg_ca thanks, I'll definitely try some of the amps you mentioned.
@zlone specs of my speakers - https://www.monitoraudio.com/en/support/past-products/platinum-ii/platinum-pl100-ii/#specs
@larryi honestly I didn't know before that many people don't like Naim amps. my problem was I asked for suggestions on.. Naim forum. What possibly could go wrong? :-)
@erik_squires yeah, definitely going off was a mistake. I'm not sure though if Arcam and Monitor Audio are extremely neutral - honestly, it's not what I remember from the past, but XLO cables are considered to be fast and detailed so maybe that made a nice combo?
@knotscott it's too bright and too cold, even bass sounds harsh. It lacks of sweetness and warmth. Speaker placement is not an issue, I moved to another house and nothing changed :)
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Go back to your old system. It was foolish to listen to that salesman's advice! What he wanted you to buy was a waste of your money! He was a predator looking to earn a commission by selling you that more expensive Naim system.
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The Lampizator DAC will look pretty but compared to a Benchmark DAC it is way overpriced!
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Well the problem was introduced with addition of Naim components. Don’t change speakers or cables. I would recommend focusing on the amplifier first. Amp is absolutely critical. Figure out the budget and start researching. For time being put your Arcam stuff back in and list your Naim stack on the used market.
That’s what I would do.
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Should I buy Lampi and then try to match up a amp to it or the other way around?
Since you liked the sound before with the CD5/Arcam combo I’d try to get that sound back in place first and then try a DAC, which could well provide significant improvements. Which DAC will depend on what specific improvements you’re looking for at that point, but I’d get the base system squared away first before throwing another variable into the mix.
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The Lampi Baltic 4 is a sonic bargain, musical and detailed. You’ll likely find it very engaging.
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Well, at least you made said salesman's day with the Naim stack purchase. 👍🤷♂️
The only 'stack' I've ever owned was the Kenwood 'L-07' series with the mono amps; since it's been a 'this or that with what' episode that I finally fought into submission. More or less, anyway...;)
What 'tweaked you off' about the old setup? Resolution, voice clarities, instruments 'off' a tad, and all the other terminology your read here?
"Hard to Rx a patient when asked about the pain, it's described as ''...everything...kinda...' "
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If you believe the music has suffered after buying all the Naim stuff (which is very good equipment) you can either get all new electronics or different speakers (which will make the biggest difference in what you hear). Going the speaker route would almost certainly be less costly. If at all possible, try to find a dealer that allows you to try the speakers in your place or that has similar equipment in the store to hear various speakers.
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Go back to the store and kick him in the nuts!
You got naimed!!
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Sorry you were sold a system that you didn’t like (Hope you let the salesperson and/or dealer know). If so surprised they didn’t try and make it right. A reputable dealer wants a satisfied customer because it’s good for you and for their business since you’re likely to buy more gear in the future. Glad to hear you’re going back to your old system. Suggest waiting until you’ve listened to it and once again like the sound before making any additional changes. Enjoy your music!
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A small update..
I'm toying with the idea of buying used Lampizator Big 7 with volume control, so I could use it as a preamp. It's available right now on the market with pretty decent price... But there's also an offer for Lampizator GG1 without pre-amp, which obviously is more expensive. Huh.
I also scheduled for this week a visit in local audio shop. I'll try my speakers and cables agains different AMPs and try to figure it out which one works best. They offered me for example: Octave v80, Ayon Spirit and Ayon Crossfire (SET).
To sum up..
1) I could start with buying Lampi DAC with pre-amp.
2) Check what AMP is best for my speakers/cables
3) After buying Lampi, borrow one of AMP's and check it at home with speakers/cables/Lampi.
Alternatively. I could pay more for Lampi GG without pre-amp and start looking for integra instead of amp.
Any suggestions, please? :-)
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Excellent play. I have the Golden Gate 3 and have no interest in a preamp.
Some things to consider with the Big 7 vs the GG:
1. Both use DHT tubes that will give you a big, wonderful, engaging sound.
2. Do either of the amps have engine 11? That is Lampizator's latest upgrade and it is worth the difference if available. Alternatively, Lampizator will generally install the upgrade later but it isn't cheap. However, engine 11 isn't a deal breaker, without it the DACs will sound better than most, as Gary Koch famously called.
3. Single ended vs balanced. I prefer single ended and you should too. The SE amp uses 2 output tubes vs 4 for the balanced. I think lampizator built the balanced just because there are fans of the balanced system. I don't consider it an upgrade. While the output tubes will likely last forever in the preamp position, having only 2 output tubes will make tube rollling much less expensive.
4. Many newer Lampizators have an analog input which is handy if you are using your DAC for a preap and you want to add an analog source, such as a phono (you'll need a phono pre or a SUT) or tape deck. You can also run your HT front speaker pre-out through it for watching movies if you have an HT system overlaid on your 2 channel system. so check if either of the DACs you are looking at have this feature.
5. The DAC is the heart of your system so I agree with putting money into a good DAC. You've already gotten some advice about your amp.
Jerry
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How does the system sound since you put the Arcam gear back in? What DAC are you using now? What specific improvements are you looking for over what you’re hearing now? All important info to make any recommendations. That said and without knowing anything more, I’d be inclined to upgrade the amp/pre first assuming you wanna do that anyway and go from there. I’d be concerned the Ayon amps don’t have enough power for your speakers, but the Octave could be very interesting and I bet will sound great with your speakers, but it ain’t cheap unless your looking at a used unit. I’d definitely demo the amp that sounds best at the dealer at home before making any decisions and deal with the DAC later. Be interested in your thoughts once you hear the amps.
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@carlsbad2 thanks! Do you really think it would be ok to start with a dac and fit a proper amplifier to it later, not the other way around? Answering to your questions:
2) none of them are upgraded to engine 11, so in both cases I’d consider an upgrade in some future, however I think it could be a deal breaker because older Lampizators use r2r ladder and from what I know engine-11 brings sigma-delta to all of them. did you have by any chance an opportunity to to compare your GG to Big7? I wonder how huge the difference is.
3) I’m looking only at SE.
4) I’d like to connect a streamer to the DAC via USB and my CD player via S/PDIF or RCA if possible.
@soix thanks for your reply! I haven’t been able to put the Arcam gear back in - an input for spades has broken and I have to take it for a repair first. I don’t have any dedicated dac, I used only Naim CD player with internal dac to play music from my cd collection. Thanks for letting me know your concern about Ayon, I’m also fretting about it a little. Do you think my speakers with efficiency 88 dB may be difficult to drive by Ayon’s 2 x 30 W?
"What specific improvements are you looking for over what you’re hearing now?" - It’s a great question. I really should play Arcam first and then have something to refer to. But the issue is that the auction with Lampi is happening now, the Arcam is broken and I penciled in a listening sessions at audio shop in a couple of days :-) Truth be told, It shouldn’t be difficult to level up from my current audio equipment as it’s from previous century (however my attempts with Naim don’t confirm that). I listened to some Ayon’s before and the sound was vivid, warm, euphoric and I liked it but didn’t have a chance to try other genres like rock and electronic music... I also tried some Chord stuff like Hugo but it wasn’t for me - it was too sterile.
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It’s good that you really appear to know what you like. If your Arcam stuff is that old I’d upgrade the pre/amp first and get that right because it may affect which direction you might wanna go with a DAC, and there will be other used Lampi DACs available in the future if that’s where you end up wanting to go so there’s no real need to rush on that important decision. And yes I’d be hesitant to drive your speakers with a 30W amp, but you can try it with your music at the dealer and see. If I’m you I’d give that Octave a serious listen and if you like it (or the Ayon) borrow it and see what it sounds like at home, but I have a feeling that might be a great match for your tastes and speakers. And again, once you have that sorted then see which direction you wanna go sonically with a DAC. Getting a DAC now would be a big shot in the dark at this point, which is why I’d wait on that. Just my $0.02 FWIW.
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@soix I'm not 100% sure if I know what I like. I know what I DON'T like: cold and sterile sound. Otherwise, I prefer everything what's good - dynamics. resolution, realism, wide sound stage, good bass, great midrange and a bit of sweetness and warm that makes it more magical experience ;-) Is is that much?
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UPDATE!
I had today a listening session at audio shop. I took my friend with me to compare the feelings. I had my piece of the equipment - Monitor Audio Platinum PL II speakers and XLO Signature 2 cables. We tried them against Ayon Crossfire III (SET) and Octave v80 (push pull). Ayon sounded surprisingly weak, bright and I didn’t like it at all. It was much better with Octave. But after some time we both found out that there is still something unpleasant with the sound that makes you tired of listening - a metallic glow. That was the moment where I unfortunately realized that my problem is my speakers...
We took Dynaudio Contour 20i and connected those speakers to Octave v80 SE and momentarily the metallic glow disappeared. There was more music, more fun, music was quite enjoyable. My friend was very satisfied. I was too for a moment, but... to be honest, I wasn’t delighted. My Monitor Audio speakers apart from having this metallic glow, have very detailed, nicely contoured sound which I like or I got used to it. At the same time Dynaudio Contour 20i give lot of fun, but the sound is kind of cloudy. Does it make any sense?
Anyway, this took me to the conclusion that I probably should start with changing my speakers. Maybe new ones will fit well with my Naim/ Arcam set? There's higher model of Dynaudio - Confidence 20, but I'm not sure if it's good way for me.
If so, what would be your recommendations?
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Upon reading some reviews of your speakers I can see why there could be an issue with glare or an over abundance of detail in the upper mids and treble and may be what you’re hearing. You could try these Joseph Audio Pulsars (original version) that could be much better/more refined in that area but not lack for transparency like the Dynaudio speakers — best of both worlds of you will. If you buy well and they don’t work out for some reason you should be able to sell them for little/no loss so not a lot of risk, but I’d bet on you keeping them. Just one idea FWIW.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/186915696094
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@soix thanks! I'm just just starting reading about those speakers. I have to check the availability in Europe, because shipping from the US would cost me an arm and a leg :)
Btw. may I ask if you're a fan ot Joseph Audio Pulsar and if you agree with my feelings about Dynaudio? I'm just looking for confirmation that my feelings might be right...
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I am a fan of JA speakers in general as they manage to sound very natural and musical while not sacrificing air/detail, and they also disappear and throw off a 3D soundstage better than most anything else I’ve heard. I haven’t listened to Dynaudio speakers in too long of a time to say anything directly about how they sound now, but what I’ve read about them from reviews and owners would coincide with your impressions and is why I thought the Pulsars would be an improvement. I also think ProAc is right up there with JA and are probably a lot easier to find/buy in Europe if you may need/want another alternative. Hope that helps.
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@soix I've read today a lot of rave reviews about JP that make me want to buy them.
Is there a huge difference between Pulsar 1 and Pulsar 2 Graphene? I wonder how much costs to upgrade from 1 to 2...
I'm also wondering if those speakers will be enough for my room - I sit almost 4 meters from speakers and the room is kinda big and open...
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I found Pulsar 1 for about 4300 USD but without front covers/grill. Also found Pulsar 2 for for about 6600 USD with front covers and guarantee till 2027. Damn!
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There doesn’t seem to be as big of a difference between the original and Pulsar 2 as with the Perspectives, and some even seem to prefer the original so I’d have no problem going with the original Pulsars and save the $$$. Once you hear them you may feel no need for the upgrade, and I probably wouldn’t even bother doing it as the originals are so good. The Perspectives are a different matter as the improvements in the Graphine version are more significant. You can probably order Pulsar grills from JA and certainly worth checking into, but I’d negotiate with that seller for a lower price to recoup at least some of that cost if possible. Sitting 4 meters from them isn’t a problem, but not knowing your room size it’s hard to say if they’re enough for your room, but if the Platinums were ok then the Pulsars should be fine too as they put out considerable bass for their size as you’ve probably seen from reviews. The ProAc K1 is worth looking into if Pulsars are hard to find as it likely offers similar sound characteristics — just another potential option. Hope this helps.
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Thanks, you helped a lot. I've sent a message to JP asking about price and possibility of buying these grills, but I guess I won't get any reply soon enough :)
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Update :)
JP Pulsars will be delivered in a week. I’ve got them on a reduced price because of no grilles. The grilles I will order directly from JP. I talked to Jeff, great guy.
It's really tempting me now to complete my audio equipment: order Lampi Big7 with preamp and connect it to my Naim or Arcam power amp... Then in some future splurge on a better amp. How bad idea is it?
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Lampi+Pulsars seem like a great musical combo, opposite of cold/sterile
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Thanks, great to hear that.
In the back of my mind I know that I probably should start with buying a power amp and then match a right dac / preamp to it. But buying a Lampi with a preamp right now would give me a chance to enjoy the music using my new JP speakers, tubed DAC/preamp and.. old Arcam's amplifier which I could change in the future for something that match the rest of the my equipment.
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I would see how the Pulsars sound with your current amp, let them play together for a few weeks, then your next move might be more obvious.
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I’m having Pulsars for a couple of days. Great resolution, plenty of details, clear and accurate sound, a little on a bright side though. I’m satisfied with the purchase and I think the speakers are the best point to start a process of upgrading the equipment with. With the Pulsars I have this feeling that they are capable of so much more but are limited by the rest of the equipment. For example the bass is kind of weak right now with the Arcams. I can literally hear them asking for more juice.
Anyway, I wanted to share the lesson I learned today - how the SOURCE important is.
Until now I used only a Naim CD player as a source. A friend of mine bought Naim Uniti Atom as an all-in-one and stopped in with it. I used it today only as a Tidal streamer/DAC and connected it straight to my old pre-amp Arcam Alpha9 (which was paired with Arcam Alpha 9 power amp). And... everything was much better than from CD player! The sound was warmed, smoother, more enjoyable to listen and so on. Just wow! I was shocked that it’s so much better. So shocked that I decided to... out of curiosity, bring my Naim preamp and amp from the boxes (this Naim that I was complaining about in my first posts), my old Monitor Audio (same story), take my friend’s cables with bananas plugs (Naim limitations) and.. I experienced also a very nice sound (better) with tight and nice bass and no signs of previous metallic sounds from Monitor Audio (different source and different cables made that).
So, yeah, I’m looking for some conclusion right now. But I’m not quite sure what to do... I spent some cash on Naim set and on Monitor Audio speakers. But having JP I’m not coming back to Monitor Audio. I also have issues with coming back to Naim because they require bananas plugs and I have spades on my great XLO Signature cables and don’t want to change the plugs AGAIN. But I hear that Naim have a lot more power than Arcam, with bass and everything... So the only option I have in my mind right now is buying nice, tubed DAC with preamp that will do even better all the magic I heard today and then after saving up a little buying a power amp that will greatly match the rest of the system. Huh.
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And there are those who swear that the front end doesn't matter. . . .
Thanks for the followup!
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I ordered Lampizator DAC Baltic & Poseidon for testing. The factory is near me, so I will have them tomorrow for about a week. It will be great to see the difference between one of the cheapest and one of the most expensive models! Anyway, it won’t be best testing ever because I still don’t have any "final" power amp.., so I’d like to ask ....
Any recommendations for power amp for JP?
Some ppl recommend solid state amps such as Pass Labs and Luxman.
Some other ppl recommend tubed amps like Rogue Audio Stereo 100, Audio Research REF 75 SE or 150
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Small update:
I was listening to the music all the evening using Lampizator Baltic 4 and Poseidon.
While Baltic was just fine, Poseidon was awesome. It's hard to describe what was so special about it, but we listened with a couple of friends and everyone said that Poseidon was in another league. The sound was better in every category. I took it because I was told that Big7 has similar "signature" of sound to Poseidon. Hopefully it's true, because Poseidon is definitely beyond my reach.
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I must admit that, for now, I’m enchanted by the sound when listening to classical music, jazz, vocals, and even electronic music through the Poseidon—it’s very good. However, when it comes to rock, it’s quite poor; the sound becomes flat and chaotic, with a heavily veiled background.
I’m wondering whether the charm of tube DACs is limited to the types of music I mentioned, or if this might be revealing the weakness of the very old power amplifier I’ve connected this very expensive DAC to....?
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However, when it comes to rock, it’s quite poor; the sound becomes flat and chaotic, with a heavily veiled background. I’m wondering whether the charm of tube DACs is limited to the types of music I mentioned, or if this might be revealing the weakness of the very old power amplifier I’ve connected this very expensive DAC to....?
If it’s the amp I think it is it’s like an $800 amp that has no business being in a system with the Pulsars and Lampi, and I believe it only puts out 70Wpc so that’s your problem not the DAC or speakers. You also need a much better preamp or a better integrated amp. The chain is only as strong as the weakest link, and your pre and amp are a total mismatch for your new equipment.
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Thanks @soix. As always I highly appreciate your support!
Currently Lampi Poseidon works as a PRE too. I also borrowed Auralic S1 streamer. So I suppose the old Arcam PA is indeed the weakest link. Any recommendations for a power amp?
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