Synergistic Red Fuse ...

Follow your heart  George and do what you must, I’m sure folks appreciate it.
Charles

Not just the heart Charles as that can imply voodoo, but logic and all laws of electronics.

Cheers George

I knew this wouldn't last.

I am sorry George but there are PLENTY of events and occurences in this world that completely defy pure logic, we all know this.
Why should fuses not be one of them?
I have a pair on order to try in my Bat VK600SE so will soon see if there is any truth in it. Heck yes $240 is  alot for a pair of fuses but I know I have spent more on changes that really have not done anything so why not try. And with a money back return all I will be out is shipping.
I do not care to dig back through this thread to find this info but have you ACTUALLY tried any of them George?

A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from voodoo. 

- old audiophile expression

Folks who reside on remote islands let's say somewhere in the Pacific can be surprisingly superstitious and sometimes believe, for example, that a camera is witchcraft and when someone takes a snapshot of them it steals their souls.

😬

charles1dad, The problem is the "me" mentality.  Everything is about me me me.  If I don't like something, can't just ignore it but "respectively" ask to stop even though, a possibility majority of members have no issues with it.   This OPEN forum is my "safe house", my escape from life and reality.   I get to choose what subjects to discuss.

Like I said before, Agon is a just reflection of society and I'm sick of these intolerable &%*#!

@knghifi
if you really just need an escape from reality then Farcebook is as good a place as any...lol
Not much reality going on there last time i checked!

Pretty much anyone can say anything here, it is their choice. If we could remember when one chooses to ignore others comments it does not get much traction, it quickly becomes pretty much a non issue. That is a good thing mostly. And people have the choice instead of contributing a derogatory and contentious comment to have a  comment that contributes to the good of all here. It is a choice. And many here do choose well. Even if they are trying to correct someone,  as I think most here would agree Almarg and others have done so kindly and with dignity in the past. People like him raise our dignity for one another and our fun and enjoyment along with solving issues we may or may not have seen that we have.  

We all can't have it our exclusive way in any situation, we all need to fit in. And we can do so for our enjoyment, as has been done many times on this thread. I think most of us are here because we enjoy the hobby and the sharing of our joy. Sadly some enjoy bullying at times and some all the time. But ignoring them can help limit their comments or make them go away altogether.

Maybe other have mentioned this. A jazz vocal I really like is a 1963 recording of John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman on Desert Island Records reissued by Verve Records.

I'll remind people here that I'm not a mere "troll," I'm a troll that did a comprehensive test of SR fuses to put my "money where my claims are" so to speak (write), and although I don't care at all how other people spend their audio bucks I do get riled up when I feel nonsense is touted as fact. In all things. I still bristle at the "30 day return policy" that is obviated somewhat by the "170 hour burn in and possibly reverse direction if no positive results occur" deal as a weirdly desperate sales hype ("please people...I just want others to blow their cash like I did"), and am absolutely in agreement with anyone recommending Littelfuse products as something that is all you need. Doesn't everyone feel better now? 

So I feel like I'm being both obliquely and pointedly criticized for politely asking for a refrain from political commentary. It really feels rather mean spirited and condescending and I am frankly rather shocked. My politics are beside the point here, how about basic respect, politeness, and courtesy? Thank you.

+1 Wolf,
All potential fusers need to remember that fuses deteriorate with age from switch on surges (as pictured), and they just need to be replaced with good quality $2 fuse of the same value, as Almarg linked to. 

https://i.stack.imgur.com/0uqWX.jpg

http://www.digikey.com/products/en/circuit-protection/fuses/139 

Cheers George

Not merely a troll. A troll with issues related to having too many thumbs or hearing issues.

😁

Geoffkait…you don’t actually use fuses in your gear, correct? And Jond…the politeness and courtesy extended to me as a "worthy audio professional" (live concert sound mixer…"I get paid for this?") is nothing if not appreciated. 

Not if I can at all help it. 

Wow.  78 pages devoted mainly to discussing the merits of expensive fuses.  And some wonder why more people aren't attracted to this "hobby".  Go figure. 

jond ...

There's no need for you to feel "criticized" regarding your stance at all. I'll go on record right here and say that if A'gon wanted to add a political forum to the site I'd be totally against it. Why? Because it would be a good way to lose half of one's friends. So, even though I interjected a political "thought" in a previous post, I'm on your side.

Wolf ... 

I have no issues with your opinions ... until those opinions become personal attacks and/or personal insults. Why? For the same reason I would be against a political forum on this site. 

Frank

Marqmike, thanks very much for the nice words.

Regarding the appropriateness of political discussion at this forum, like JonD I was surprised at the controversy that resulted from his extremely polite and respectful request.  Which to Frank's credit was received amicably and readily agreed with by him, as the OP.

In the past I have seen many requests in other threads for members to avoid bringing politics (and also religion) into the discussion.  Jon's request was easily the most respectful and polite request of that kind that I can recall. 

And I agree that such discussions have no place here.  Although I suppose that arguing about what to argue about is preferable to arguing about such subject matter itself :-)

Regards,
-- Al
  

George
I do not doubt the efficacy of your statements whatsoever, they do make sense.
HOWEVER could it not also be possible that there may be an improvement above and beyond the "stock fuse" replacement?
Again I am just curious here and not wishing to be antagonistic in any way but have you actually tried them?
Wolf has and heard no difference and that is also fine, at least he tried and his opinion has been formed from actual experience.
mine will very soon once they show up.
But I read the same lines in different clothing all the time George and while it is a free forum obviously, I really would like to know if you have tried these fuses yourself

Thank you Frank, Al, and Charles, your thoughts are most appreciated. I value all of your contributions very highly. And I just think that framing arguments in the context of our society right now can be fraught with controversy and perceived, if not intended, ill will. Now hopefully we can return to the topic of fuses which as we all know is totally not controversial. :-p

I don’t think it’s correct to say it’s an open forum per se. Most other audio forums don’t allow politics, religion or other hot topics on audio forums but instead have a place where people can go and bash away at each other.  It's usually called Outside or Everything Else or whatever. Not everyone is so cordial and objective when discussing politics. :-) Of course you could just wait and see if the mods step in. They might not care, who the heck knows? Besides, isn't audio controversial enough?

Geoffkait 3-20-2017
I don’t think it’s correct to say it’s an open forum per se. Most other audio forums don’t allow politics, religion or other hot topics on audio forums but instead have a place where people can go and bash away at each other.  

+1.  And of course that is also often the case at non-audio forums.  For example I participate in a forum for computer enthusiasts and builders, which among many other sub-forums has one called "heated debates."  That is where discussions of politics, religion, and other subjects that are just about certain to result in ugly off-topic exchanges are relegated.

And perhaps that is where the line in the sand that Charles referred to should be drawn.  When a topic is BOTH particularly controversial AND not germane to the subject matter of the forum.

Regards,
-- Al
 

Hi Charles thanks and very succinct! :)

...tick, tock, tick, tock...
:-)

Touché uberwaltz, I've asked that question twice without an answer. It's quite simple......with the fuse being the weakest link in the AC pathway, isn't it possible that improving that weak link could bring about sonic improvement? How could improving a cheap devise made only to blow upon excess voltage not improve the signal? I could take it a step further.....it's not only possible but probable. Whether through improved conductivity, better EMI/RFI shielding or both....could it not improve sonic performances?Just to say it's impossible for it to do so seems intellectually dishonest to me....but maybe I'm totally wrong in thinking that improvement upon a thin coil of wire that the AC passes through as it enters our components could possibly improve that components sound. 

BTW, Paul McGowen of PS Audio deserves credit for this contention, not me. He refers to the fuse as the AC bottleneck, not weak link, though.

I really would like to know if you have tried these fuses yourself

No and I wouldn’t pay >$100 for one, but I have sat in reluctantly at a demo of them and there was no discernible difference between it and a good quality new $2 fuse.

Cheers George

 Have any of you fuse proponents looked up "expectation bias"
probably makes more sense to believe in the Easter bunny

There is no joy in Mudville today. All the trolls have struck out.

But the swings.....
Every effort to park 'em in the cheap seats and yet, no contact.

Buying brand new schurter, littlefuse or cooper/bussman fuses also works in experimenting to see what is going on. . one can get the correct type but also, importantly, change the breaking current to various values. Higher breakage values sound more linear to the ear. Less distorted. For example, you can get a 10 amp time lag fuse that pops at 200A peak, or 400a peak or even over 1000A peak. I think the highest I’ve seen is 1400A peak transient before breakage. Each material in use has different peak transient breakage values, and different aspects of transient linearity. Digikey and Mouser is the place to look.

Each will ’sound’ different. The vast majority of the fuses from the companies mentioned are non-magnetic brass/copper/etc designs.

 Have any of you fuse proponents looked up "expectation bias"
probably makes more sense to believe in the Easter bunny

Sure, have you fuse opponents looked up "expectation bias"?
It works both ways you know. If you do not expect to hear differences, you won't.

teo_audio, nice take on the sound of "ordinary" fuses and how they differ as well. I've linked to this site before where the reviewer mentioned the same thing along with his take on the boutique fuses. He says even the $2.00 fuses offer an improvement over the cheap ones.

All the best,
Nonoise

These fuses are quite a bit more expensive. If you have not tried them then you don’t have an opinion. Logically this must be 1000’s of times better than the very small but quite effective SR fuses.

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/scientist-holding-large-fuse-11471106.jpg

Notice that the audiophile in the photo has mounted his speaker wires on cable elevators - this guy is clearly an authority to be highly regarded.

Love it!!!  shadorne

Cheers george

What a rip off! That’s obviously a HiFi Tuning Supreme fuse and he’s holding the directional arrow / diode symbol whatever next to his chest.

I’ve had those kind of fuses explode (image link in above post) when a 25kv transformer shorted and exploded. they were hit with the full HV from the pole (where the shorted transformer was), with unlimited (power source) amperage. the fuses were in a power room. Behind the closed panel, inside the sealed electrical room, at a large car wash/gas station.

The door to the electrical room was closed, and water-tight sealed, as stated..and behind me.

I could swear I caught a flash, when they went. The room was full of smoke when I opened the door, the fuses were almost vapourized, and the panel was hot. From the one single arching and quick burst. Blew the 50hp 600VAC electric motors at the car wash, as well. Now that’s expensive.. Luckily I was not holding onto anything electrical at the time. It Shut down the whole block.

The Japanese audio companies use and have used SOC fuses for many many years. Why? their fuses cost the manufacturers a little more than some of the better Schurter and cooper/littlefuse/bussman fuses, but are better sounding, overall.

You can open up anything audio or video built in Japan from approx 1975 to 2017, and probably find a Japanese made SOC fuse in the fuseholder.

The other thing to do, and I’m only SUGGESTING, not saying do it...is to go to the hobby shop..a complete hobby shop..and obtain some thin wall brass and copper tubing of appropriate diameter. (1/4" or 5mm depending on fuse size) Then cut one down to the right size.

When you try that you will almost literally crap your pants. It will leave all fuses, great and small, $2 to $400 or whatever, all completely in the dust.

You will like the sound so much that mac trucks tied you your body will not be able to drag you away from leaving things that way. ("NNNoOOOoooooooo..." you will be heard whining..as you are forced to put the fuses back in). just leave the brass/copper tubes in there, you will be trying to reason to yourself. It has to be ok, right?

Warning: you can’t. It has to be fused. You’ll have to put the fuse back in. You will refuse. You will balk. It will be one of your most hated moments in the world of audio.

Warning. Once you’ve heard that, there is no turning back. What has been heard, cannot be unheard. You will lament it at every chance. For your entire life of using fused audio gear.  There may be lots of drinking and forgetting involved. "I had a perfect relationship, once", you will be found to be sourly muttering...

For some of you, if not most, it will probably be the biggest positive change you’ve ever encountered. It will RUIN you. The perfect perspective on how bad for audio - fuses actually are.

There is hope, though. John Curl advocates this one: re-settable fuses. He tries to spec gear this way, whenever he is involved. They are as close as you can get to the sound of being legal and fuseless.

teo_audio, that was the most convincing illustration of why better made fuses can, and do, have a positive effect. It will, however, pass right over the skulls of some here. But not to worry, there'll be a hissy fit of a comeback, 'shortly'.

All the best,
Nonoise

Hi teo_audio,
 Thanks for posting your colorful and very interesting fuse experiences.  You've given examples of what many posters already know,  those darn little electrical things do affect the sound.  As you've noted , each fuse has its own distinct sonic character.  Very easy for many listeners to hear,  no voodoo required either 😊😊
Charles 

Teo Audio. I posted the same thing much earlier on. I did in the past use appropriate sized copper lugs in place of fuses and the sound is soooo much better. No fuse sounds the best by far. Just simply avoid them (fuses) by using high quality Heinemann on/off breakers as the power switch.

Common sense tells me that a better quality fuse will sound better than a cheaply made one as no fuse at all sounds the best. I have experimented with all four  - no fuse, copper lug, standard fuse, Synergistic fuse. I have heard the differences. I ask again, why not use a high quality breaker switch? Most gear is built with an on/off switch anyway and a fuse. Eliminate the fuse and yes you still have a switch, but certainly a better overall design by eliminating the fuse. 

This is can be implemented in all manner of designs to better the sound. 

John Curl advocates this one: re-settable fuses

They are starting now becoming industry standard as their prices have come down over the last year or so, they are now much cheaper than a good $2 fuse + the fuse holder, and that is a big fact to manufacturers.
 But there’s no voodoo inside them if you care to investigate.

http://uk.farnell.com/pptc-resettable-fuses?searchRef=SearchLookAhead

Cheers George

George and Teo, yes the re-settable fuses are yet another example of out of the box thinking. 

I’m reminded of an intelligent observation:perhaps by Einstein or Orwell:
"Anyone who thinks they understand (sic) the intention of this thread - most
certainly has absolutely no idea what’s going on".

Apparently, shadorne liked the quote I posted earlier today, in the Cable section. Yeah, it applies here as well:  03-20-2017 12:37pm - I believe Ivor Tiefenbrun(Linn founder) said something along the lines of, " if you haven’t heard it, you have no opinion". That just makes sense, which(to some around here) seems irrelevant.