I’m wondering if any of those who have experimented with fuse directionality have tried simply removing a fuse and then reinserting it in the same direction, but such that it is rotated through a significant angle (such as perhaps 180 degrees or so) about the axis corresponding to its length. Or perhaps simply removing it and then reinserting it without any apparent rotation.
The point to that experiment being to determine if the differences that are perceived may simply be due to minute differences in the physical contact between the fuse and the contacts on the holder. While that may seem to be an unlikely explanation for differences that may be perceived and attributed (or misattributed) to directionality, from a technical standpoint it strikes me as nevertheless being a less unlikely explanation than the essentially infinitesimal differences in various parameters that have been reported to have been measured between the two directions in a couple of papers that have been published, for example, by HiFi Tuning.
Of course, even that kind of experiment would not rule out the possibility that other effects might be in play, such as sonic differences that are sometimes reported to result from simply turning a component off and then on a few minutes later.
Regards,
-- Al
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Oregonpapa, glad you have obtained such outstanding results with the black fuses. A question I would ask, though, in all sincerity, is how do you know that these findings were not primarily caused by effects on the player itself that might have resulted from being operated in repeat mode 24/7 for several days?
Best regards,
-- Al
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Mapman 02-08-2016 1:48pm
These kinds of wild claims from high end companies really set off my BS meter.
Glad they sound and work well according to the users in any case. +1 on both counts. I for one would be much more inclined to try a tweak that is seemingly inexplicable, or one whose degree of efficacy seems inexplicable, if the manufacturer simply stated that they do not really know how it works, but that they have empirically found that it does. Rather than providing explanations that strike me as some combination of marketing-ese and techno-babble (to coin a couple of expressions). BTW, for anyone who may be interested Wikipedia has what appears to be a good writeup on quantum tunneling. Also BTW, I see no mention in the writeup of ultra-high voltages, such as two million volts. That said, I do respect and value the fairly overwhelming acclamations of these fuses that have been offered in this thread, especially taking into account the credibility many of the posters have clearly earned here over the years. And I wouldn't rule out the possibility that I may just try one. Although not before I get through the breakin and fine-tuning of tonearm adjustments for my recently acquired AT-ART9 phono cartridge, which I decided to go for based largely on acclamations provided by some of these same posters :-) Regards, -- Al |
Charles, that’s an exceedingly thoughtful offer, and much appreciated!! 3 amps won’t work for me though, at least in the components I use for critical listening. My VAC amp has a 4 amp fuse in each channel, my Stax headphone amp takes a 1.5 amp fuse, and the fuses in the other components are all a fraction of an amp. Also, my CD player, which (consistent with some of the comments that have been made in the thread) would probably be a logical choice to try first, I’ve just sent back to Bryston for repair of a problem with its display.
Thanks so much, though, for the kindly offer, and for the nice words. Best regards,
-- Al
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I’ve been thinking, my Hegel H30 uses a 15 amp slo-blo so theoretically if on a 15 amp outlet, the breaker will trip and don’t need a fuse ... just hard wired it. But since it’s on a 20 amp line, MAYBE not a good idea. I’m just speculating and not bypassing the fuse. I think you’re right to not count on the 20 amp breaker providing protection comparable to a 15 amp fuse, Kng, and I would say the same thing even if the breaker and outlet you are using were rated at 15 amps. A circuit breaker will generally take MUCH longer to trip than a slow blow fuse, at least in situations in which the overload is not extremely great. Regards, -- Al |
I’ve never used after-market audiophile fuses before; how do you know if they are made with the same tolerances as a stock or a Buss fuse for a given amp value? The major manufacturers of non-audiophile fuses, such as Littlefuse and Eaton/Cooper Bussmann, provide detailed datasheets at their websites. Which among many other things specify a "nominal melting" parameter, which defines the combination of current and time that would "typically" cause the fuse to blow. That parameter is usually specified in terms of (amperes squared) x (seconds). The reason current is "squared" is that power, and hence heat, are proportional to current squared. I for one have never seen any such detailed specifications for aftermarket audiophile-oriented fuses. So I guess it comes down to relying on a combination of reported experiences and faith. Re your question about warranties, per the terms of most component warranties that I’ve seen a company would certainly be within its rights to deny coverage for damage that might not have occurred if the original fuse had been in place. And some warranties, as you may have seen, simply state something like "all coverage is void if the unit in tampered with or modified in any way." So I guess it comes down to balancing risks that aren’t precisely quantifiable vs. reward, as is the case with many things in life. Best regards, -- Al |
Jon, sorry that you’ve experienced this issue. I have no particular suggestions beyond what Sgordon1 has said (although you indicated that you’ve already performed step 1 of his suggestions), but the following may have some relevance:
I took a look at the detailed technical info for the 0.25A 250V 5x20mm fast blow fuses manufactured by Littelfuse, one of the leading makers of non-audiophile fuses. Interestingly, they offer at least four different series of fuses of that specific type, designed to various combinations of UL, IEC, and other standards, which have "nominal melting points" (defining the combination of current and time that will cause the fuse to blow) ranging from 0.0166 amps squared-seconds to 0.042 amps squared-seconds. That’s a difference of a factor of 2.5, even though all of those fuses are from a single manufacturer and all are 5x20mm fast blow fuses rated at 0.25A 250V.
If the stock 0.25A 250V 5x20mm fast blow fuses in your amp are rated at or near the upper end of that 0.0166 to 0.042 range, and the unspecified rating of the SR fuse is at or near (or even below) the lower end of that range, it would certainly seem to account for what happened. If you call SR, you might ask them if they can tell you what the nominal melting point of that fuse is, in amps squared-seconds.
Good luck. Regards,
-- Al
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Jon, if you choose to pursue Electroslacker's suggestion, you can order the Littelfuse fuses I referred to from the industrial electronics distributor Digikey, via this link. As you'll see in the listing, though, only the 0.0166 and 0.04 amps squared-seconds fuses are stocked. The intermediate value fuses (0.024 and 0.032) and also the 0.042 fuse are special order. I believe that Digikey doesn't impose any minimum dollar requirement for an order, and as you can see in the listing all of the fuses other than the 0.042 (which isn't necessary, if you get the 0.04 fuse) can be ordered in quantities as small as 1. I also checked distributors Newark Electronics and Mouser Electronics, but they too don't stock the intermediate values, at least for fuses made by Littelfuse. Regards, -- Al |
@audiolabyrinth, Keith, although of course I have no specific knowledge of the internal design of your Krell amp, and although you mentioned earlier that Krell's service manager strongly recommended against changing the value of the 1 amp fast blow fuses, IMO changing them to 1.6 amp fast blow SR Blacks is a sensible thing to do. For the following reasons: 1)The failures that were reported earlier, as well as the conversation you mentioned you had with Ted Denney some time ago, suggest that the 1.6 amp SR Black is likely to have a melting point (current squared x time) that is significantly less than the melting point of a 1.6 amp fast blow fuse from one of the major manufacturers of non-audiophile fuses. 2)I agree with your statement of 2-18-16 that: ... most anomalies that could happen will be far greater than these slightly
higher fuse values, so, in general, your equipment investment's will
be fully protected in my opinion. (although you were referring just to ratings of up to 0.25 amps over stock). 3)I would never expect a component manufacturer to approve changing a fuse value, no matter how reasonable doing so might in fact be. IMO. Regards, -- Al |
Would an external fuse holder with a battery ac oss the leads to get an amp or two across suffice? Household alkaline batteries would at best only last a few hours when supplying that much current, and in many cases less than an hour. Also, you would need to have a resistor in series, to limit the current to an amount that is appropriate for the rating of the particular fuse, taking into account the internal resistance of the particular battery. What might be reasonable to consider is using an AC-powered power supply, providing some reasonably low output voltage, wired to a suitable fuseholder in series with an appropriately chosen resistor. In the case of a rail fuse (that would be conducting DC within a component) a power supply providing DC on its output should obviously be chosen. In the case of a mains fuse, though, in the absence of a detailed technical understanding of what changes occur during the breakin process that are audibly significant (or even of how these fuses work their magic) I have no idea as to whether it would be best for the output of that supply to be low voltage AC or low voltage DC, or if it would make any difference either way. Regards, -- Al |
HiFi had a third party actually measure fuses' performance - their
fuses, competitor’s fuses, cryo’d fuses, standard fuses, backwards and
forwards. And the data is there for all to see. Hel-looo! Yup. And as you may recall I commented on those measurements extensively in various posts in the long-running "Fuses That Matter" thread. Most notably in my post dated 5-14-2012 11:24 a.m., wherein I summarized my technical comments by saying: I applaud HiFi-Tuning for providing these measurements. However, IMO
they provide the basis for a good case as to why fuse upgrades shouldn't
make a difference, or at least a difference that is necessarily for the
better....
I don't exclude the possibility that a fuse change can make a
difference, but once again the explanations that are offered in support
of the existence of those differences do not withstand quantitative
scrutiny. Regards, -- Al |
... the fuse design can only have 3 possible outcomes: Allow the unit to operate as designed; Starve it of current or voltage lowering its performance; Raise the amount of current that can pass through the fuse, which would damage the unit if an internal short were to occur (but have NO effect otherwise, as an electrical circuit operating normally will only draw the amount of current the circuit uses, no matter how much might be available).
All of the quantitative specifications I have seen in my examinations of technical datasheets for garden variety fast blow and slow blow fuses support the conclusion that for the kinds of fuse ratings that are used in audio components the voltage losses and current limiting that may be introduced by the resistance of garden variety fuses are so low as to be negligible, and to leave little or no room for improvement. And even if that were not so, at least in the case of mains fuses any such losses would be completely swamped by differences in AC voltage among various locations, and probably even among different outlets at the same location. And it seems safe to assume that the limiting effects of whatever infinitesimal amount of inductance a fuse may have on abrupt changes in demand for current would also be negligible. As someone who knows his way around a circuit board, to use your words, I have no idea how these fuses may work their magic, although I remain open-minded given the overwhelmingly positive results that have been reported by members I consider to be particularly credible. Best regards, -- Al |
Those are interesting thoughts, Mapman. While fuse seating/contact integrity and changes in fuse parameters occurring over time would seem unlikely to result in significant sonic differences, any other conceivable explanation would also seem to be unlikely.
But in particular, regarding possible increases in resistance and consequently in voltage drop that might occur over time, keep in mind that while increased resistance would result in increased voltage drop, it would also result in increased power dissipation in the fuse, and therefore in increased internal heat, and therefore probably also in premature failure of the fuse. Also, degradation of performance over time would seem to fly in the face of the general consensus that hundreds or (some would say) thousands of hours of use is likely to improve the performance of a component, not degrade it.
A couple of experiments that would be of interest, though, if anyone is so inclined, would be to (a)replace an older stock fuse with a new inexpensive Littelfuse or Cooper Bussmann fuse of the same rating; and (b)temporarily, for experimental purposes, replace a stock fuse with an inexpensive Littelfuse or Cooper Bussmann fuse of MUCH higher current rating, which in terms of resistance would be essentially equivalent to eliminating the fuse altogether.
Regarding graphene, I have no particular knowledge.
Best regards,
-- Al
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Knowledgeable EEs in these parts. You mean like Al? But he's a skeptic. Wouldn't it be a conflict of interest for him to explain it? No, consistent with the kind comment Charles posted about me yesterday, I would plead not guilty to any allegations of being a skeptic. However, I would not dispute the characterization you implied in a different thread some time ago, namely that of a "pseudo-skeptic." One attribute of a "pseudo-skeptic" being the absence of conflict of interest. :-) Regards, -- Al |
Gpgr4blu, I’m sure Tsushima1 is correct about the physical size and voltage rating of the fuses that are required for your ARC gear, but to clarify about the voltage ratings: The 500v and 250v ratings refer to how much voltage a fuse can withstand when it blows. The voltage a fuse will "see" when it blows (i.e., the voltage that will appear between the fuse’s two contacts) will be the full line voltage. So the higher that rating is the better, everything else being equal. Under normal operating conditions the voltage appearing across fuses having these kinds of ratings will be a very miniscule fraction of a volt. And when the component is turned off the voltage appearing across the fuse will be zero.
HOWEVER, I would disagree with a couple of important things that have been said just above:
1)I would strongly recommend against substituting a fast blow fuse of somewhat higher current rating for a slow blow fuse of somewhat lower current rating. Some time ago, in connection with this thread, I looked at the detailed "melting point" specifications that are provided by the major manufacturers of garden variety fuses. That spec defines the approximate combination of current and time that will cause the fuse to blow (actually, in terms of current squared x time, which is proportional to energy). The upshot is that such a substitution stands an excellent chance of causing the fuse to blow almost immediately. Especially in the case of a mains fuse, where brief but very large "inrush currents" may occur at turn-on.
2)Earlier in the thread there were multiple anecdotal indications that the unspecified melting points of SR fuses are probably a bit lower than those of garden variety fuses having the same current rating (i.e., indications that the SRs blow a bit more readily). And it would seem expectable that in general a fault in a component that would cause a fuse to blow is more likely than not to result in a very large current increase, rather than one that is just slightly greater than the rating of the original fuse. Especially in the case of a mains fuse. So for both of those reasons I would suggest using a 6.3A slow blow in a 6A slow blow application, and an 8A slow blow in a 7A slow blow application. And likewise if an SR fast blow is substituted for a stock fast blow.
Good luck. Regards,
-- Al
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None of those things are a problem, Mapman. See the post I submitted earlier today, at the bottom of the previous page.
Best regards,
-- Al
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Are you saying the 500V rating is safe even though it is twice what the vendor specifies because such an event /surge can never happen? Hi Mapman, Yes, I’m saying that the 500V rating is safe. As you will realize, a fuse does not protect against voltage surges, per se. It protects against excessive current flow. And as I explained in my post earlier today, the voltage rating defines how much voltage the fuse is rated to be able to withstand when it blows. And the only time a fuse will "see" the actual line voltage, or any other significant voltage, is if and when it blows. If the line voltage exceeds the fuse’s voltage rating, the fuse may not be able to maintain an "open" state when it blows, and current may therefore be able to flow through it. Or, conceivably, it may explode. So as I indicated in the earlier post, the higher that rating is the better, provided that everything else is equal. Because a higher voltage rating means more margin relative to a given line voltage, which would be in the direction of being beneficial if it makes any difference at all. Best regards, -- Al |
Can you explain just what is used in fuses to create the different amperage ratings that then influence failure at the indicated rating? From pictures, I have always thought that the filament sizes/widths are increased to achieve the higher ratings in otherwise same-type fuses, and this would to my thinking also indicate a reduction in resistance or, as you stated, more of a straight wire approach. That sounds exactly right to me, JA. And that is borne out by examination of the detailed technical datasheets that are provided by the leading manufacturers of non-audiophile fuses. Within a given series of fuses, that are similar in most respects other than their current ratings and "melting points," resistances become progressively lower as current ratings increase. I’ll add that I would expect in general that the characteristics and behavior of fuses in speaker applications figure, IMO, to be much more critical than in the case of many and probably most electronic component applications. First, it doesn’t seem highly unreasonable to expect the small fraction of an ohm resistance of these fuses to constitute an audibly significant fraction of the impedance of many speakers. And of course fuses in passive speakers (and some fuses in active speakers) directly conduct the audio signal, or at least some of its frequency components, as opposed to a mains fuse or a DC rail fuse in a component. Also, since the resistance of a fuse varies somewhat as a function of the amount of current it is conducting, the fluctuations of that resistance as a function of the dynamics of the music will be greater in a speaker application than in the case of most electronic component applications. With the fluctuations in themselves perhaps having audible consequences. Finally, in the case of mains fuses in electronic components, if the AC line voltage at a particular location happens to be significantly greater than whatever voltage the component was designed to sound best at (presumably 120 volts in most cases, for equipment sold in the USA), it seems conceivable that more fuse resistance could actually sound better than less, since it would result in slightly less voltage being applied to the component. But that possibility would not be applicable in the case of a fuse in the audio signal path of a speaker. ... are you thinking of accepting the SR fuse challenge in one of your own components? As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I suspect I’ll give one of the SR black fuses a try at some point, probably initially in my CDP. But right now and in the coming weeks I’m focusing on other priorities in my system, including a repair the CDP is undergoing, a repair I’ll be attempting to do myself on my vintage tuner, and break-in of my AT-ART9 cartridge and subsequent finalization of the related tonearm adjustments. Best regards, -- Al P.S: Thanks very much to Charles for the kind words he posted yesterday. |
Better get Al here to mediate the situation.
I'll have to admit that when it comes to mediating disagreements with Geoff, staunch defender of the faith when it comes to unexplainable and seemingly implausible tweaks, that my reconciliatory abilities approach a nullity. :-) Regards, -- Al
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Mapman, thanks so much for the exceedingly nice words!
I’ll add that I always enjoy, and not infrequently learn from, your invariably balanced, knowledgeable, and level-headed posts.
Also, I don’t disagree with George’s characterization of me as a fence-sitter when it comes to some controversial tweaks. Especially in cases such as this one where the seemingly implausible magnitude of the claimed benefit is supported by testimony from several members I consider to be particularly credible.
That said, my bias, to the extent that I have one, always tends to be in the direction of focusing my investments of time and money where I believe those investments are likeliest to be most beneficial. With that judgment being made based on both my own knowledge and experiences that are reported by others, which I try to calibrate based on who is doing the reporting, and on the apparent thoroughness of their experimental methodology. My perception is that you have a similar outlook.
Thanks very much again. Best regards,
-- Al
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Georgelofi 3-18-2016 7:18pm EDT
Unless these fuses are resistive, capacitive, or inductive in nature, then there are grounds for a technical discussion on them, and if they are any of these then they can only be detrimental to performance in the power supply chain. It would be interesting if someone who has some of these fuses and also has a good quality digital multimeter would measure their resistances. "Good quality" includes the ability to resolve fractions of an ohm. If anyone does this, for the result to be meaningful the reading that is obtained by touching the two probe tips directly together should be subtracted out, if it is not zero. I’ve pondered the possibility that unusually high resistance might account for the differences that have been reported, compared to stock fuses. It seems unlikely for several reasons, including the consistently positive direction of the differences that have been reported, the directionality that has been reported, and the fact that the fuses would probably be getting warm or hot if their resistance was great enough to drop significant voltage. But still, it would be interesting if someone could make those measurements, if only because it may rule out a possible contributor to the differences. Regards, -- Al |
Geoff, repeating what I said in my post in this thread dated 3-8-2016 4:18pm EDT: Geoffkait 3-8-2016 4:01pm EDT
HiFi had a third party actually measure fuses’ performance - their fuses, competitor’s fuses, cryo’d fuses, standard fuses, backwards and forwards. And the data is there for all to see. Hel-looo! Yup. And as you may recall I commented on those measurements extensively in various posts in the long-running "Fuses That Matter" thread. Most notably in my post dated 5-14-2012 11:24 a.m., wherein I summarized my technical comments by saying:
I applaud HiFi-Tuning for providing these measurements. However, IMO they provide the basis for a good case as to why fuse upgrades shouldn’t make a difference, or at least a difference that is necessarily for the better....
I don’t exclude the possibility that a fuse change can make a difference, but once again the explanations that are offered in support of the existence of those differences do not withstand quantitative scrutiny.
Regards, -- Al |
Mapman, thanks very much for performing those measurements. The HiFi Tuning paper Geoff linked to indicates that the difference in resistance between a 3.15 amp HFT fuse and a standard fuse was in the vicinity of 0.03 ohms, with the HFT’s resistance being lower. Given the somewhat limited resolution of your meter, your results appear to be similar.
So you’ve confirmed that unusually high resistance is not a contributor to the differences the SR fuses are making for many people. And neither is unusually low resistance. A 3 amp fuse in normal usage is likely to be conducting something on the order of 1 amp, which would result in a difference in voltage drop compared to a typical stock fuse of 0.03 ohms x 1 amp = 0.03 volts (corresponding very closely to measured voltage drop differences reported in the HFT paper for 3A fuses). And while 0.03 volts is almost certainly too small to make a difference in most or all applications, it is absolutely too small to make a difference that is consistently in the direction of being better, across a wide variety of components and a wide variety of AC line voltages.
So the mystery continues.
Best regards,
-- Al
P.S: David -- very sorry to hear the news about your brother. I’m sure I speak for all of us in hoping that his condition is treated successfully.
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Hi Jon,
It’s most probably a 6.3 amp 250 volt ("250v" rather than "250ma") fast blow fuse, in the common 5 x 20 mm size (the smaller of the two physical sizes SR offers, the other being 6.3 x 32 mm). If the internal filament is a straight piece of wire, rather than a spiral coil or a flat conductor having substantial width, that would provide added confidence in my assumption.
Good luck. Regards,
-- Al
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I cannot believe that their are some people that think that a fuse
cannot make a difference. Really, so we buy 1000.00 power cords and
have a 10 cent power fuse.
I suppose that among the 1226 posts that have appeared in this thread so far there are a few in which it has been asserted that a fuse cannot make a difference. But I cannot recall any such posts, and I for one, as well as Mapman, have not made any such assertion. I would add, however, that I would not consider the low price of stock fuses to be a factor that is supportive of the existence of such differences. Just as I would not rule out the possibility that a lower priced power cord may outperform a higher priced power cord in many applications. Regards, -- Al |
Geoff, thank you for providing the thorough recap. However, as I see it those are not explanations, they are assertions. Or perhaps hypotheses would be a better term. To rise to the level of being explanations there has to be some basis (either analytical or empirical) to expect a reasonable possibility that the presumed lack of attention to those factors in stock fuses results in effects that are great enough in degree to be audibly harmful, in a broad range of applications.
And the fact that many people find the SR and other upgraded fuses to be beneficial does not constitute such a basis. If a Ferrari driven by a 160 pound driver is out-accelerated by a Lamborghini driven by a 159 pound driver, would you attribute the Lambo's victory to the difference in the weights of the drivers?
Now, if you were to ask if I have any better explanation to propose for the widely reported benefits, my answer would simply be "no."
Regards,
-- Al
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Regarding quantum tunneling, as I pointed out earlier in the thread there is such a phenomenon (see this Wikipedia writeup). However, my understanding is that it has nothing to do with treating a material "with 2,000,000 volts of electricity in a process we [SR] call Quantum Tunneling." Or with application of any other especially high voltage. Regards, -- Al |
Jafreeman, as I've said at various times during the course of the thread I don't question or even doubt the many positive experiences that have been reported with these fuses. I say that due to both the high degree of consistency of those reports, and to the considerable respect I have for the credibility of many of those providing the reports.
However for the reason I stated in my previous post I do consider the "explanations" that have been cited to not rise above the level of unproven and arguably dubious hypotheses. And one reason I attach significance to the lack of a confidence-inspiring explanation is that it lessens the predictability of whether a particular tweak will benefit a particular component in a particular system. And one reason I attach significance to a reduction in predictability, despite the existence of return privileges, is that as Wolf and Mapman have pointed out assessment of a tweak involves an investment of time even if it doesn't involve an investment of money.
Best regards,
-- Al
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Geoff, note that Wolfie referred to a **reasonable** explanation. As I indicated in my post dated 3-25-2016 the explanations that have been cited are hypotheses at best. Unless the specific adverse effects of stock fuses that are claimed to be minimized or eliminated by the SR and other audiophile-oriented fuses are somehow shown to have a reasonable possibility of being great enough in degree to be audibly harmful (and across a broad range of components and systems), it is not unreasonable to consider those hypotheses to be unproven and/or unreasonable.
IMO, FWIW. Regards,
-- Al
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Well, George, sometimes the view from the top of a fence can be an interesting one :-)
BTW, I'm sure OP's statement that you quoted was said with tongue firmly planted in cheek. :-)
Best regards,
-- Al
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Jafreeman, it appears that this is the Furutech paper you were referring to. I read through it. It appears to me to be written more intelligently than a lot of the cable literature manufacturers provide. Although the quantitative significance of a lot of the things it discusses is debatable, and will certainly tend to be system-dependent. Also, keep in mind that the effects of most of the parameters it refers to, as with most cable effects, are proportional to length. That would include resistance, inductance, capacitance, skin effect, proximity effect, and several other parameters that they did and did not mention. Obviously an audio cable is typically far longer than the wire in a fuse. That said, I don’t doubt that fine results can be obtained with that wire, just as I don’t doubt that fine results can be obtained with wire from other manufacturers whose design philosophies and approaches differ. Geoff, in response to your latest post that was addressed to me I’ll say simply that various "explanations" have been offered in the thread for the benefits people have perceived to be provided by the SR fuses, and I stated my opinion concerning those explanations. I also stated a reason why in my opinion having a confidence-inspiring explanation can be valuable. Generalized discussions about the need or lack thereof for proof of assertions that are made in forums are irrelevant. Also, regarding your (Geoff’s) comment that: Skeptics in the real sense - not the sense you see here often - requires rational debate and inquiry and investigation, not some knee jerk response like, But you can’t prove it! That type of thing is straight out of 12 Angry Men. Even in a murder trial proof is not a requirement for conviction, only the preponderance of the evidence. And the evidence in this case is piling up. The evidence that is piling up is that in most reported cases the fuses provide considerable benefit, not that the explanations of those benefits that have been cited are the reason(s). Also, for the record, the "preponderance of the evidence" standard applies to civil actions, not murder or other criminal trials (in the USA, at least). In those cases the standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt." (I have a law degree in addition to my two EE degrees). Regards, -- Al |
This is ... a hypotenuse.
Being familiar with the witticisms that are often seen in Geoff's posts, I assume that this mischoice of words was intentional. :-) Regards, -- Al |
Charles & Nonoise, thanks very much for your exceedingly kind comments. And thanks also to Wolfie for the kind comment he posted a few days ago. I always enjoy talking audio with you gentlemen, and I value your opinions and experiences.
Best regards,
-- Al
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Mark, 250 ma is 1/4 amp (ampere), so that is definitely not right. You were probably looking at the value that appears by default for the large size fuses. Click the inverted pyramid symbol next to that value and you'll find the other available choices. The response from Hegel that Bob provided was:
The fuse should should be 15 Amps. Specification should be 250V T15A "T" denotes slow blow. Also, since Bob said that "the closest Black SR fuse is a 16amp," and since the large size fuse is offered in a 15 amp rating as well as a 16 amp rating, I suspect that you would need the small size. But wait for Bob to confirm that. Regards, -- Al |
Fluffers, the 500 volt rating of the large size fuse is not an issue, when used in place of a fuse having a lower voltage rating. See the first paragraph of my post at the bottom of page 19 of this thread, and follow-up posts in the top half of page 20.
Regards,
-- Al
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Sgordon1 5-3-2016
Regarding fuse ROTATION... I have found "DOTS DOWN" to sound the best.... I encourage everyone to experiment with fuse rotation!
And I would encourage that before perceived sonic differences are reported as being attributable to causes that seemingly make no sense whatsoever, that steps be taken to assure that the perceived differences are being attributed to the correct variable. In this case, for example, by rotating the fuses back and forth once or twice between their original positions and the rotated positions, to verify that the perceived differences are repeatable, and that they are not due, for example, to random differences in contact between the fuse and the holder. Regards, -- Al |
I will say with respect to the controversy of the day that I have perceived over the years a somewhat understandable tendency among many audiophiles to over-attribute (or mis-attribute) intrinsic tonal and other sonic characteristics to things that may make a difference in some cases, but for which there is no reasonable basis to expect any consistency or predictability of the resulting sonic character among different applications.
With respect to outlets, for example, it does seem conceivable that sonic consequences could result from certain factors, starting with contact integrity. But to expect those differences to affect tonality or other sonic attributes in a manner that has any particular likelihood of being applicable to components that may be completely different in design and may be performing completely different functions and may be powered by AC having very different voltages and noise characteristics, seems to me to be fundamentally irreconcilable with any reasonable understanding of how this stuff works.
Regards,
-- Al
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Regarding the fuse upgrades Zacho is considering, if the fuses involved are AC mains fuses, and if they are the smaller of the two sizes SR provides (5 x 20 mm), I'm not sure I would feel comfortable using one of those fuses in a 240 volt application. The SR 5 x 20 mm fuses are rated at 250 volts, which doesn't seem like a lot of margin relative to his line voltage, considering also that I wouldn't assume such specs to necessarily be precisely accurate.
The larger 6.3 x 32 mm fuses are rated at 500 volts, which would be fine.
None of this will matter under normal operating conditions, btw. The only time the fuse will "see" the line voltage, and hence the only time the voltage rating will matter, is when a fault in the unit necessitates that the fuse blows. If the voltage rating is inadequate, relative to the line voltage, the fuse may not "open" properly, and may continue to conduct current. Or, conceivably, it may explode.
Regards,
-- Al
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Can any of you explain why an item such as a fuse, which breaks the signal path, has such an impact on sound? As far as I am aware no such explanations have ever been provided that would stand up when analyzed or considered quantitatively. That includes the extensive set of measurements of numerous fuses that have been provided in the past by HiFi Tuning, which I commented on earlier in this and other fuse-related threads. Although of course all kinds of "explanations" can be, and have been, conjured up that by their nature cannot be analyzed quantitatively. Also, even if differences in any measured parameters were in fact great enough in degree to have a reasonable likelihood of accounting for sonic differences in some applications, it would STILL not be explainable how they might consistently work in the direction of making a positive difference (rather than a negative difference or no difference), among components that are very different in design and perform very different functions and are presumably powered by AC having very different voltages and noise characteristics (those voltages in various cases most likely being both higher and lower than the voltages the components were presumably designed to sound best at). And even if all of the above were in fact explainable, it would STILL not account for the sonically significant directional effects of fuses that have been reported. On the other hand, though, the lack of a good explanation does not **necessarily** mean that the consistently positive results that have been reported for fuse upgrades are attributable to misperception, expectation bias, unrecognized extraneous variables, or more cynical factors. My guess, FWIW, is that in some cases the reported results are accurate, and in other cases are attributable to some combination of those other factors. IMO. BTW, my thanks to Wolfie and OP for the nice words in some of their recent posts. Regards, -- Al |
Oregonpapa, if you do eventually obtain a REL sub, be aware that when connecting it to many ARC models, including yours, there are some very important but VERY non-obvious considerations that are involved in how it should be hooked up. The second item below is especially non-obvious, while being VERY important. First, you would want to connect the sub at speaker-level, to the outputs of your amp, rather than at line-level to the outputs of your preamp. One reason for doing that is that is what REL generally recommends, but more importantly the line-level input impedance of most or all REL subs is only 10k (definitely including the T5, although the S5’s input impedance doesn’t appear to be specified). That is too low for your ARC preamp to drive without significant deep bass rolloff, with 20K being its minimum recommended load. Second, and even more importantly, when you connect the sub to the outputs of your power amp DO NOT connect the black (ground) wire from the sub to the 0 ohm/common/negative output terminal of the amp. In many balanced ARC amps, including yours I’m pretty certain, the 4 ohm terminal is what is connected internally to the amp’s circuit ground. Therefore the black wire from the sub’s Neutrik connector should be connected to the 4 ohm terminal of either channel (not both) of the amp. The red wire from the sub would be connected to the 8 ohm right channel terminal, and the yellow wire from the sub would be connected to the 8 ohm left channel terminal, assuming you would be using just one sub. Connect the main speakers to whatever terminals you presently connect them to. Also, see this thread. (Note, btw, that in the first sentence of the second paragraph of the OP in that thread, he meant "not optimal" when he said "optimal"). Regards, -- Al |
Jafreeman, I couldn’t find a schematic for your Ref 210 monoblocks, but given that it is a fully balanced ARC design that does not provide an RCA input, I suspect that in respects that are relevant to connection of a REL sub it is similar to the Ref 250 monoblocks that are used by the OP in the thread I linked to in my previous post.
If so, whether or not a ground-related noise issue would arise connecting in the manner you described (which would be an appropriate way to connect the speaker-level input of a sub to most other amps), may depend on the happenstance of how circuit ground and AC safety ground are handled in the particular sub, and possibly also on how AC power is distributed to the subs and to the amps (e.g., via conditioners of various types, via separate dedicated lines, etc.). In the case of the OP in the thread I linked to, obvious symptoms did arise. But I suppose that even in the absence of obvious symptoms it is conceivable that sonics could be at least slightly compromised in situations such as yours.
My suggestion is that you ask ARC which of the amp’s output terminals is connected to the amp’s circuit ground. If (as I suspect) the answer is the 4 ohm terminal, rather than the 0 ohm/common terminal, it may be worth your while to try connecting the black wire to the 4 ohm terminal, and the red and yellow wires to either the 8 or 16 ohm terminal. Using the 16 ohm terminal for the red and yellow wires, with the black wire connected to the 4 ohm terminal, should result in the optimal setting of the sub's level control being about the same as the setting you are presently using. Connecting the red and yellow wires to the 8 ohm terminal, with the black wire connected to the 4 ohm terminal, would necessitate a somewhat higher setting of the sub’s level control.
Of course, continue to connect the Maggies in the same manner as you have been doing.
Regards,
-- Al
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Different people have differing levels of cynicism, and different people will arrive at conclusions based on differing degrees of persuasiveness of the available evidence. Personally, as one who has never been known to be especially cynical, and having carefully followed this and other threads in which many of its participants have posted, I don't doubt the sincerity of all or nearly all of its participants. However I don't think it to be totally beyond the bounds of reasonableness for Wolfie to have arrived at the conclusions he has reached.
But speaking of reasonableness, I can't help but feel that what seems to me to be the utterly unimaginable and technically inexplicable DEGREE of the positive effects that have been reported for not only these fuses, but for SEVERAL OTHER products that are ALSO made by SR, that have recently been reported on by many of these same posters in other threads, reflects negatively on the credibility of the degree of the reported benefits, if not their existence. And personally I find that to be a net negative with respect to the encouragement it provides for investment of the **time** that would be required to properly assess these tweaks in my own system. Return privileges notwithstanding.
Regards,
-- Al
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Mapman 7-14-2016 12:42pm
The best engineers strive for accuracy and avoid making mistakes that will have consequences to someone down the road.
+1. A good engineer recognizes that it is almost always best to get things right the first time, for example during the design process, than to have to fix them later. Although having dealt with countless engineers during the course of my career, as well as being one of them, my perception has been that there are many cases in which perfectionism tends to be carried to extremes. And many engineers tend to be a bit too dogmatic and inflexible in how they approach their work. All of which can result in the paralysis by analysis that OP referred to. One thing I have never perceived, however, is any particular tendency among engineers to fear criticism. In fact perfectionist tendencies and paralysis by analysis, in a professional setting, can be expected to often result in big-time criticism, when schedules are missed and budgets are exceeded. One thing that worked to my advantage in my career was being able to recognize that different circumstances call for differing degrees of perfectionism, and flexibility in how different situations are approached. With the choice of how to proceed often being made just by technically-based instinct. In any event, my thanks to Wolfie for having taken the time to provide an additional data point on these fuses, in a manner that sounds like it was done with requisite thoroughness. Regards, -- Al |
Those familiar with the breezy, witty, and often highly humorous writing style Wolf has manifested in a great many other threads here over the years should realize that the wording of his post about his experience with the SR fuses was entirely characteristic. Therefore I for one see nothing in that wording that would suggest any applicability of the cynical parsing it received above.
Regards,
-- Al
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By the way Al, I was cruising through the AT ART-9 thread last night and was wondering how you like your’s now that its broken in? Wonderful in every way :-) I’m forever indebted to you, Pani, and the several other members whose posts inspired me to purchase it! I should note, though, that very shortly before purchasing it I also purchased a Herron VTPH-2 phono stage (that acquisition also having been inspired largely by the glowing praise it has just about universally received here and elsewhere), and it’s hard to say which of the two items has been the greater contributor to the improvement in my system. Although it’s certainly safe to say that both have been major factors. To add some context, previously I was using a Soundsmith re-tipped Grace F9E Ruby moving magnet cartridge, and the phono section of a vintage but well regarded Mark Levinson ML-1 preamplifier as my phono stage (accessed via its tape outputs). The ML-1 and various incarnations of the Grace F9E served me well for many years, but the new combo is in a different league altogether. Thanks again. Best regards, -- Al |
OP, not to belabor a tangential issue, but to add some clarification to the recent discussion Mapman was referring to the first paragraph of your post dated 7-16-2016 1:17pm EDT, on page 45 of the thread, which began with the words "Oh my gawd! I just spewed my morning coffee all over my computer screen." A subsequent sentence in that paragraph quoted from the now deleted post by Mr. Casey.
My suggestion to everyone is that when disrespectful personal attacks are posted that the offended member click the "Report This" link that appears in the lower right corner of every post when that location is pointed to, select "abusive towards another member" as the reason for the report, add any relevant comments, and click "send report."
Best regards,
-- Al
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Nyame 7-28-2016 7:09am EDT
IF YOU DO NOT HEAR THE BENEFITS [OF THE BLACK FUSES] YOUR SYSTEM IS NOT PERFORMING OPTIMALLY. As I, Atmasphere, and others have pointed out in a number of past threads, the ability of a system to resolve hardware differences does not necessarily go hand in hand with its musical resolution or its sonic quality. Just to cite a few examples, a preamplifier having high output impedance will be more revealing of interconnect cable differences than one having low output impedance, everything else being equal, due mainly to its increased sensitivity to cable capacitance. A speaker having low impedance and/or highly capacitive phase angles will be more revealing of amplifier differences than a speaker having more benign impedance characteristics, everything else being equal, because (simply put) it is a more challenging load. Components having **well designed** balanced interfaces will be less revealing of interconnect cable differences than components that are connected single-ended, everything else being equal, for several reasons. None of those differences in sensitivity to hardware necessarily have anything to do with the musical resolution or sonic quality of the components or the system. Countless other comparable examples could be cited. I would not be so quick to allege that the reason someone having many decades of experience as a professional sound engineer and a musician did not hear an improvement after trying these fuses in five different components (amp, preamp, dac, phono stage, subwoofers) over a period of weeks is that his system is inadequate. Oregonpapa 7-27-2016 9:03pm EDT
How did you [Wolfie] try the fuse if you didn’t order it? That was explained in Wolfie’s post of 7-13-2016. Regards, -- Al |
OP, +1 re "Sam" (I used quotes around his name in my previous post because that was a pseudonym, as is fairly well known) and Lars. Very enjoyable and witty reviews.
Best regards,
-- Al
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Interesting, Wolfie, that you should mention the late Lars Fredell ( "The World's Greatest Audiophile"), as just the other day I happened to be reading his brilliantly written and informative review of a Tenor OTL amplifier. Very sad that he passed away at only 58. Unfortunately I never had the pleasure of meeting him, or of sharing a listening session with him or his close colleague "Sam Tellig" (formerly of Stereophile), even though I live in the same general neck of the woods as they did at the time. In those days my work was sufficiently intrusive on my time that just being able to listen at home was a special occasion. But eventually I got my priorities in order :-) Best regards, -- Al |
Interesting stories, Wolfie. Redding is a beautiful town, of course. I'm not far from there, as I mentioned.
Re the mention by the other gentlemen of "For Duke," I don't have that recording but I do have another M&K Realtime direct-to-disc recording of that era, "The Power and the Glory (Volume I)". It is a recording of classical music for organ, that was recorded in a large church that apparently has one of the world's largest organs. I'm hard pressed to think of superlatives that would do justice to its sonics. However I only played it via speakers once, as it is the only recording I have ever played that caused paint chips to fall from my ceiling :-)
Best regards,
-- Al
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