Geoff,
Pick up any of hundreds of books on audio amplifier or speaker design. You will find ample proof that equipment is designed to minimize extraneous noise from the power supply (that is where you will find the fuse). You will find a low output impedance and a high input impedance is recommended in order to minimize interconnection effects.
I dont know know why any of you would think well designed audio equipment should magnify things that we definitely do not want to hear. If this is not self apparent then you are in the wrong hobby because listening to music means a focus on the music (source signal) and not the fuse in the power supply.
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Shadrach wrote,
"Geoff,
Pick up any of hundreds of books on audio amplifier or speaker design. You will find ample proof that equipment is designed to minimize extraneous noise from the power supply (that is where you will find the fuse). You will find a low output impedance and a high input impedance is recommended in order to minimize interconnection effects."
Please provide one, just one, statement in any of those hundreds of audio amplifier or speaker design books regarding fuses in either amplifiers or speakers. I trust you aren’t now claiming fuses are interconnectors.
Shadrach wrote,
"I dont know why any of you would think well designed audio equipment should magnify things that we definitely do not want to hear. If this is not self apparent then you are in the wrong hobby because listening to music means a focus on the music (source signal) and not the fuse in the power supply."
Don’t put words in my mouth. I never said audio equipment should magnify things we do not want to hear. Do you actually believe fuses are NOT a weak point for EMI/RFI, vibration and conductivity? Have you been nodding out during this discussion?
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Good points. More attention should be given to the fuse holder. This is an area for innovation for sure! |
Grannyring -- do you mean the fuse holder;;; or the very sensitive soul holding the fuse?? |
If the vibrating fuse and holder alleged "issue" is keeping anyone up at night, just squirt some silicone caulk on it and call it a day. In fact, fill all your gear with silicone caulk…messy, but hey…you can't be too careful when it comes to developing your True Audiophile cred. |
Just another step on road to Tru-Fi. |
Wolf, that is exactly what I do with some parts. Vibration of parts is something smart designers try to solve for wether it be tube sockets, caps, fuse holders, or other sensitive areas. |
In the spirit of innovation and "what can be" the fuse holder is important for several well understood reasons which include;
Quote from DIY audio site that is remarkably forward thinking;
"On other equipment, I went through the trouble of making a few fuse holders to experiment with. My experiments revealed the importance of contact surface area, material, plating, contact pressure, wire termination mechanics, attachment of fuse holder to chassis, with best results achieved with high contact pressure, copper-plated brass, cylindrical fuse holder with crimp fitting for wiring, and teflon outer dialectric.
Somebody once mentioned that perhaps Furutech or some other company should manufacture an audio-grade fuse holder one day, since the existing options for these are really unimpressive from anything else but a safety perspective. Does anyone know of any audio-grade fuse holder for 5 x 20m fuses?"
In 5 years perhaps all of our gear will benefit from better fuses, fuse holders, and a slew of other improvements coming from the minds of those who are intentionally curious and innovative today. All you detractors, as humorous and fun to read as you are, also benefit from these very ideas, past and present. Hope you realize this. Today you joke about fuses or fuse holders and tomorrow they will be better designed and enjoyed by all. Today we benefit from advances that were ridiculed in the past. Innovators and early adopters should be thanked. Wether graphene, power transfer technology, or whatever, those who are opened minded and open to learning at least stand a chance of improving technology for the rest of us.
Sure, you guys owe us in the fuse crowd a big thank you😊 |
Some things are taken for granted.
It's always been there so why investigate it?
It's always worked so why improve upon it?
It's not appreciated since it might lessen my contribution.
Using that logic, we could have all stopped improving things eons ago.
Another consideration that's overlooked is if there'd been serious R&D into something considered so insignificant that there's no real standardization of it's implementation, and advances made beyond "good enough" were achieved, other components downstream needn't have had such development to overcome the problems that came along from that something, considered so insignificant.....
All the best,
Nonoise |
At what point will the naysayers promote the abolition of the patent department? :-) |
Hi Frank,
As a point of information, the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office does not verify that an invention that is the subject of a patent application works as claimed. Although they will refuse to grant a patent for an invention that is patently impossible, pun intended :-) A classic example being any form of a perpetual motion machine.
BTW and FWIW, regarding the indication at the AH website of a patent pending for their fuse technology, I had used the search features at uspto.gov to search for both granted patents and patent applications, using various terms relating to the name of the company and its proprietor. My search came up empty-handed.
Best regards,
-- Al
(Licensed but non-practicing patent attorney)
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Al, I hereby award you the first Dick Tracy Award for detective work above and beyond the call of duty. It almost sounds like you're making some sort of comparison between aftermarket fuses and perpetual motion machines but maybe I'm reading too much into your post.
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It almost sounds like you're making some sort of comparison between
aftermarket fuses and perpetual motion machines but maybe I'm reading
too much into your post. Yes, you are reading too much into my post. But thanks for the award :-) Regards, -- Al |
Al, you’re welcome. Just curious, did you happen to run across ANY patents or patent applications for audiophile fuses? It seems to me these audiophile fuses are not really a new invention but an improvement of an existing invention. So, I doubt any of the fuses we've been talking about are actually patentable. There are only so many patents granted for paper clips, too, I would imagine.
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No, I haven’t Geoff, although I haven’t ever looked very thoroughly.
BTW, an improvement of an existing invention can certainly be patentable in many cases. It just has to meet the basic requirements for any patent, namely being new (meaning the improvement has not been done previously); useful (pretty much anything will be considered as meeting this requirement, aside perhaps for something like a substance whose only functionality is causing cancer in humans); and non-obvious to one reasonably skilled in the particular art.
Regards,
-- Al
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For audiophile fuses one assumes patent approval does NOT depend on listening tests. Therefore, ironically, having a patent for an audiophile fuse does not in itself guarantee the fuse will improve the SQ, no? So the whole issue regrading patents for fuses is moot. A patent - if there is one - should not persuade an audiophile one way or the other.
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Geoff, yes, I agree with your post just above. I’ll add that there are practical reasons why a manufacturer might choose not to seek a patent, such as the attorney costs that may be involved. And perhaps also the amount of time that is required to secure a patent, which may exceed the product’s anticipated life cycle.
In general, the usefulness a patent might provide to a prospective purchaser, if any, will result mainly from the information it provides about the product.
Regards,
-- Al
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Another reason is a patent makes your idea and process visible to all including competitors. Competitors make a couple of changes and they can in fact "copy"your "patent" in large measure. Sometimes it is better to just keep it hidden. I experienced both in my innovation career...that is filing and not filing and the consequences. |
Right. There is some question whether Audio Horizons, in such a competitive market, would be able to sell enough fuses to pay for the patent. There's also the sticky issue of whether it's actually better to keep the whole thing secret rather than reveal how it works in the patent.
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reveal how it works in the patent.
Really!!! God forbid that might happen. Whatever they have, any patent office would laugh it off, unless they could find a corrupt one somewhere in the world. Yes the patent office in Darkest Africa, 666 Voodoo Place, they've been known to take dirty money. Cheers George |
Audio grade fuse holders are already in your gear. Remember, it's the fuse holder. |
You guys crack me up. My patent office comment was made tongue in cheek. Actually, I was referring to an old story that back in the 1800's there were those who thought the patent office should be abolished because everything that could be invented had already invented. "Everything that can be invented has been invented." ---
Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899.
Frank
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grannyring
Another reason is a patent makes your idea and process visible to all including competitors. Competitors make a couple of changes and they can in fact "copy"your "patent" in large measure. Sometimes it is better to just keep it hidden.
eggs ackley! You beat me to it by 15 minutes. One can't help wondering if the Patent Office would have any difficulty approving my application for the Teleportation Tweak? Or would they reject it out of hand? Not that I would file an application. Loose lips sink ships.
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I just went back to read your site information on the Teleportation tweak. Easily some of the best site prose I have ever read. I must remember to send my friends to your site. No, do not file for a patent as you will spill the beans on how you accomplish such a fantastic outcome. Keep it hidden and secret would be my professional advice. |
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Wow fuses are really boring compared to that! |
Yes indeed mapman. That is some read! |
mapman
Wow fuses are really boring compared to that!
I would certainly disagree if I could.
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This thread has been great for a long time. Partly because Oregon papa was kind and clever enough for keeping calm and and answer with humour on the 2 or 3 that never listenned to aftermarket fuses but try to turn the ones who listen and want to share ridiculous.
But now it is becoming complteley useless and stupid.
Unlike the trolls when I disagree I quit but my goal is to learn or share about music reproduction, not to suscribe to all the discussions Where opinions differs to mine.
The trolls don't bring anything positive or interesting on the discussion. Never ever, but htere is always someone for answering them. They don't care what we can argue, they only try to exist using maîly the threads speaking of tweaks and expressing opinions based on listening impressions.
They never quit the thread, hidden behind their screens scruting new posts and answering things we don't asl'them to, trying to turn ridiculous the ones that speaks about what they heard.
Many years now I am on forums and it is always the same again and again.
So I think we should have a "Troll" switch to activate or not on every thread and when the Troll switch has been activated by, let's say, more than 10 or 20% of the forumers past the 20 posts they could be automatically put off the thread.
They think they are clever and humourous but they are useless, stupids and nocive. |
"Troll"
The use of the word
"Troll" 4 x in one post, must be a record, and it's directed at the more tech savvy members on the forums who only try to keep things honest and technically informative.
Where it should be rather directed at the "snake oil voodoo'ist" of the forums who prey on the gullible that aren't technically minded.
Just like the way some power cords can sound?
I have never been so impacted by these power cords. Soundstage opened wider and deeper. The background became dead silent, space between instruments and stage members were more focused and everything sounded cleaner and musical than ever. My highs had a glorious crispness and symbols shimmered. Midrange through my 2" horn became more dynamic and punchy. My 15" bass driver tightened and dug low with great control.
Cheers George |
George ... I don't think Barbapapa was referring to the technically gifted ones who contributed to this thread. I believe he was referring to the very few who keep beating the drum of skepticism in a negative way. Tonight's spectacular during the listening session was Milt Jackson's recording on the old Savoy label called "Second Nature." This two record set puts the musicians right there in the room with you. Highly recommended. Here's a link to a mint, unopened promo album. Please, someone buy it and share your thoughts here. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Milt-Jackson-Second-Nature-1976-Savoy-W-L-PROMO-COMP-M-M-2-LPs-UNPLAYED-JAZZ... |
Barbapapa
This thread has been great for a long time. Partly because Oregon papa was kind and clever enough for keeping calm and and answer with humour on the 2 or 3 that never listenned to aftermarket fuses but try to turn the ones who listen and want to share ridiculous.
But now it is becoming complteley useless and stupid.
Unlike the trolls when I disagree I quit but my goal is to learn or share about music reproduction, not to suscribe to all the discussions Where opinions differs to mine.
The trolls don't bring anything positive or interesting on the discussion. Never ever, but htere is always someone for answering them. They don't care what we can argue, they only try to exist using maîly the threads speaking of tweaks and expressing opinions based on listening impressions.
They never quit the thread, hidden behind their screens scruting new posts and answering things we don't asl'them to, trying to turn ridiculous the ones that speaks about what they heard.
Many years now I am on forums and it is always the same again and again.
So I think we should have a "Troll" switch to activate or not on every thread and when the Troll switch has been activated by, let's say, more than 10 or 20% of the forumers past the 20 posts they could be automatically put off the thread.
They think they are clever and humourous but they are useless, stupids and nocive.
Ain't that the truth? |
Did my ex wife start posting here? |
"Did my ex wife start posting here?"
THAT is funny.
As for the fuses I have 2 types of aftermaket in my system : SR Blacks and Beeswax SHD. I like both but I find the Audio Magic better for my taste in my system. A bit less spectacular but more globally musical with a more refined sound.
Awfully long to burn in. The good thing with aftermarket fuses is the investment is cheap relative to the increase in SQ.
The relatively bad thing is we are at the beginning of exploring with with little things and we can expect every year or 2 there will be a new model with better SQ that will came as a temptation.
Is that a bad thing ? We can say the same for lots of technical gear.
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Barbapapa,
I’ve suspected that the Audio Magic Beeswax fuse is a very good one. I may try one in my DAC or Line Stage at some future point. Admittedly I’m not in a rush to do so as I’ve been content with the SR Black fuses. I feel that the Audio Horizon fuses are likely terrific fuses as well.
Frank,
Thanks for the Milt Jackson recording recommendation, I am yet to come across a disappointing recording from this brilliant vibraphonist .
Here’s one for you, "Bags Meets Wes" Bags was Milt’s nickname.
This is a quintet featuring Milt and Wes Montgomery. This is an early 1960s Riverside recording and it is a gem , just beautiful playing by these giants of jazz.
Charles |
barbapapa 02-02-2017
+1
I agree 100%
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Frank,
Mentioning Wes Montgomery made me think of another wonderful jazz guitarist Kenny Burrell. "Midnight Blue " this is another gem early 1960s Blue Note recording. I believe that you'd like it a lot.
Charles |
"The use of the word "Troll" 4 x in one post, must be a record, and it’s directed at the more tech savvy members on the forums who only try to keep things honest and technically informative."
barbappa was not talking about Al there, Georgie. He was clearly talking about you and the three other riders of the Four Horsemen of the Dumbpocalypse, thus the use of the word Troll four times.
Dave
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Other forums I’ve participated in have an "ignore list" feature. You can add a member’s name to the list, and their posts will not be visible when you are viewing threads. You can see that they posted, but the text of their post is hidden. You have the option of making a particular post visible again, if you want to see it.
It's a great feature, and I really wish audiogon would implement it.
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Trolls should be welcomed with open arms. Aside from giving out name tags M, T and S there’s not much you can do. In addition, when things get a little tedious or self congratulatory on any number of audio subjects along come the trolls to loosen things up and play pseudo skeptic or Devil’s advocate. As far as I know the long standing practice of leaving Roach Motels out overnight has been largely ineffective and should probably be curtailed.
There’s a fine line between a troll and a skeptic. But there’s an even finer line between an enthusiast and a shill. - old audio axiom
😎
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I believe he was referring to the very few who keep beating the drum of skepticism in a negative way.
They are the ones that are technical ones, and not voodoo drum beaters. Please name and show any posts of any of the known technical member’s here on these forums, that back the things being said about what these $$$ fuses are doing amazing things for the sound, similar to what the voodoo’ist are saying, and the directional application of them. Cheers George |
George,
You keep implying that you and the other three Horsemen (W, P, S) are "the technical ones". Technically what?
Dave |
georgelofi
I believe he was referring to the very few who keep beating the drum of skepticism in a negative way.
They are the ones that are technical ones, and not voodoo drum beaters.
Please name and show any posts of any of the known technical member’s here on these forums, that back the things being said about what these $$$ fuses are doing amazing things for the sound, similar to what the voodoo’ist are saying, and the directional application of them.
Been there, done that. The technical explanations why fancy fuses outperform stock fuses has been provided ad nauseum by yours truly. Ad nauseum, you know, like your demands for them. 😀
Rule no. 1. Never give a technical explanation to a non technical person. It's goes whoosh!
Besides, this isn’t going to be another one of those I’ll show you my credentials if you show me yours debates, is it? 😁
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Is it so hard??
All I ask is that you voodoo’ist name the members here who are highly technical, that back your findings of these $$$ mains fuses.
1: Being directional
2:That can magically escalate the sound quality of ones system.
Cheers George |
George, you really don't get the whole Appeal to Authority thing, do you?
😃
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George, you really don't get the whole Appeal to Authority thing, do you?
I just don't get shysters, preaching this sort of voodoo, like I said please. That you name the members here who are highly technical, that back your findings of these $$$ mains fuses. 1: Being directional 2:That can magically escalate the sound quality of ones system. Cheers George
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George, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore.
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Sorry but there is no conversation on this topic, as your not prepared to.
That you name the members here who are highly technical, that back your findings of these $$$ mains fuses.
1: Being directional
2:That can magically escalate the sound quality of ones system.
Cheers George |
3,500 posts....so, have we solved the mystery of the fuse yet? SMDH.
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John, we have indeed! Scores of professional reviewers, builders, and actual audiophile/music lovers have all heard the wonderful improvement. Hundreds if not thousands of us mere mortals!
How they work has been explained here and elsewhere. They work and scores of sane people attest to that fact. All that now remains is this fun reading. I rather enjoy it.
Not all have have heard it, but not all have heard differences in most anything from wire to amps. Heck, many of my friends can’t hear the difference between a great tube amp and a Kenwood receiver! Many good reasons for that could fill a book. Perfectly understandable some have not.
Sure, a verdict has already been reached and the rest of this is just for fun. |
