Trigger warning! Fragile egos should look away now.
When an expensive (compared to other, less audiophile specific marketed items) product is promoted and its pricing and return policies are detailed ad nauseum in a PUBLIC FORUM it becomes fair game for criticism even if the promotors don’t want that to happen. Some possibly unpleasant facts for SR fuse fans: The development and design of SR fuses relative to exactly why they work their alleged magic has never been explained by the promoters of these things (or anybody else), however there is agreement even among Fusers that they aren’t rated properly ("go up a few ratings and all is well"…right then...)…fuse ratings are likely a safety priority to any other fuse company, but for SR not so much. Is all this worthy of criticism? Yes it is, and asking to ban critics says more about the financial and emotional "investment" of supporters of SR fuses than any criticism could manage. If people disagree with me I can handle it just fine…fire away!
Cheers! |
Marqmike,
Yes, the way this thread has evolved with the many suggestions of recordings is really a satisfying by product. I’m eagerly looking forward to receiving the recordings from Frank’s bottomless reservoir, especially the Milt Jackson Savoy recordings.
As an aside for anyone who likes Miles Davis and is interested in him besides the iconic "Kind Of Blue"
"Sketches Of Spain" arranger Gil Evans.
"Seven Steps To Heaven "
"Love Songs" (compilation) very good sampling of ballads by Miles.
"Miles Ahead" features a 19 piece big band , arranger Gil Evans.
Good stuff!
Charles |
+1 Wolf,
And with other technically adept audio techs, who couldn’t even be bothered with even reading this thread, with the voodoo snake oil that’s presented here. That’s why it was never presented in the "Tech Talk" forum, as it would get shot down in flames.
I ask the question of any techs reading these fusers claims, to endorse what’s preached here to what these fuses will do for the sound quality, and to also endorse increasing the amperage rating of the fuse beyond the manufacturers specified rating, and to verify that changing direction of the fuse makes a difference.
Let’s just see how many will lay their cred on the line and answer.
Cheers George
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People who play stupid games get stupid prizes. - Old audiophile expression
😬
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People who play stupid games get stupid prizes.
And playing the fuse game, get the the biggest stupid prize, because not one Audio Tech with any cred will play that snake oil game, unless they have no cred and are in it for monitory gain. Cheers George |
My fuse saga began several years ago when I tried and liked the Hi-Fi Tuning Supreme fuses in my Primaluna mono blocks. Later, I bought my first Synergistic Black fuse out of curiosity and after having had favorable experience with other of their products over the years.
Based on the obviously positive results with the first fuse, I eventually came to replace all of the fuses in my system one by one (or two by two in the case of my amps), I enjoyed improvements in sound quality with every step. These improvements were consistent from component to component, and I found that the cumulative effect was not strictly additive, but, dare I say it--synergistic.
Taken together, the front wall of my room disappears, my relatively modest speakers disappear, and all who visit--audio buffs or not--marvel at the experience of hearing their favorite artists like they never have before. That's the fun of this hobby, and it harms no one. It makes this retiree very happy every time I fire up my system and "spin" my favorite tunes. |
Yep ... Andy gets it.
And now that we're on the subject of turntables ....
Over the past few months I've had the pleasure of hearing three different systems where the owners have gotten into the classic rim drive turntables where they have changed out the plinth, tone arm, etc. The systems have ranged from ultra high end (excess of 300k) using VERY expensive electronics and speakers to a much more modest system tonight using classic Marantz tube gear.
After hearing the results, if I were to do it over again, I'd seriously consider going this route. What these tables do when properly modified is quite astounding. They are so much closer to producing the actual DRIVE of live music, especially on jazz recordings.
I've heard 100k+ analog setups that don't do what these table do. Oh, the expensive ones are truly great, but in the area of where the music is really at, they just don't seem to get the job done as well. A real toe tappin' ... head noddin' experience.
During each of these sessions, the owners had more than one turntable to make comparisons with. In all three sessions, we kept going back to the rim drive tables as our preferred listening source.
For the listening session tonight, we compared a properly set up Goldmund Studio table to a modified rim drive table. The Goldmund was smoother and quieter in its presentation and really good. The rim drive ... was alive. That's it ... alive.
I don't know if any of you have gone this route, but if you have, I'd sure enjoy hearing about your experience.
Frank |
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Frank,
Thanks for the music recommendations, I’ll seek them out. Regarding Victor Feldman, here are a couple I believe that you’ll really enjoy.
"Merry Ole Soul" he alternates between vibraphone and the piano. As I’m sure you know he’s excellent on both instruments.
"The Arrival Of Victor Feldman " recorded in 1958 on the west coast and features a very young (rising talent) Scott LaFaro on bass.
Regarding rim drive (Idler arm) turntables, Arthur Salvatore has written extensively about their merits on his website. As you note, he also believes that they have superior musical drive and as a result sound more "live" like. As much as I really enjoyed my Well TemperedTurn table if I ever returned to playing records the rim drive table would be my choice.
Charles |
^^^ Charles ,...
I wasn't aware that you had a WWTT Charles. With certain modifications and proper setup they can be close to giant killers.
I'm going to spend the day (Sunday) digging through the old record vault to see how many of the records I heard at my friend's home last night are lurking in there. I have a tendency to play my favorite 400-500 records and kind of let the others slip by the memory bank. Plus the CD player is sounding so good these days, and is so convenient with the remote control in hand (bad knees, back, etc.) that I play CD's mostly and save the LP's for when the audiophile friends come over.
Frank |
Frank,
Yes, I know very well the qualities of that table and I had it for about 15 years. I sold to a friend who lusted after those turntables. I am doing very well with Redbook CDs through my current system. Frank it wouldn’t surprise me if you have the Victor Feldman recordings I suggested somewhere buried in your vast collection.
Charles |
My turntable has a fuse and I made a decision to replace it with a N52 magnet..I did so years ago ..2008 on my LP12..all mirrors and no smoke. The magnets cost $2.43 American and direction is obvious by nature. Freedom of your own choice to do so or not.All slam and no fumes.Enter at your own risk. Tom |
theaudiotweak
My turntable has a fuse and I made a decision to replace it with a N52 magnet..I did so years ago ..2008 on my LP12..all mirrors and no smoke. The magnets cost $2.43 American and direction is obvious by nature.
Direction is obvious by nature? Really? How so?
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Easy to reference and mark the polarity. Its up to the listener to determine the chosen direction for best sonic results. Tom |
theaudiotweak
Easy to reference and mark the polarity. Its up to the listener to determine the chosen direction for best sonic results. Tom
Tom, good answer. So, it’s direction is not obvious by nature. Next question: Why do you think a magnet is better than a copper wire for that purpose? Cheers
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I have tried both thru out my system..doing one side at a time. The side without the magnets..well I had to move my chair almost in front of that speaker to capture the balance from both speakers. Made more difference on the ac side of things..maybe it reduces the phase differential . Maybe there is an enhancement in regards to one direction and therefore more easily heard and sensed. Copper may have a preferred direction of use but not a reference to polarity as in a magnet. Tom |
There is a lot of "Group Think" going on here in this "inner sanctum". If you can get so much for one pound of money, you can get twice as much for two pounds of money, is one example.
Since group think is responsible for a high rate of death during that time of year when the prevailing thought among lemmings is to jump off a cliff, I am not an advocate of "Group Think".
I spent a lot of time, effort, and truly taxed my brain to learn what I know about electronics, but now I can just throw it all out like dirty dishwater, because they have more adds (lies) in "Stereophile", especially regarding cable and fuses than you can shake a stick at, that make a flat out lie of all those electronic formulas I learned.
Now "group think" is trying to justify 100K amps, speakers, and cables; fuses are next. I would part with the left small part of my anatomy to be any kind of "Audiophile manufacturer" today. When you combine group think, and "snob appeal", the sky is not the limit for prices.
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Funny thing about what we learn in schools and books. Most of it is conventional wisdom and methods assumed to be the gospel. The older and more curious and innovative I become the more I realize that we have much before us that expands what we may have read and learned in the past. Question everything and experiment and experience for ourselves. |
^^^ I think it best that we keep in mind here that its really about the music. Does a tweak or an equipment upgrade get you closer to the actual event or does it not?
How many of us posting here have been so taken by a piece of music being played on our car's FM radio that we've pulled over to write the name of the artist/performance down, then headed directly to the record store to buy it?
Either one's audio system is emotionally involving from a musical standpoint or it isn't. Cost doesn't seem to have that much to do with it as far as I'm concerned.
Frank |
The mods need to take a look at this.
Isn’t it funny that whenever legitimacy or safety issues are bought up about fuses, they get swamped by non off topic posts about the latest cd/music, fm radio, books etc etc to hide those issues from the gullible who just might purchase a fuse.
Take those post to the correct forum/s "MUSIC" ect and let the gullible fuse purchasers seen the "legitimacy or safety issues" to make up their own minds.
Cheers george |
Speaking of emotional involvement, my system has taken a leap in this area with the latest change I've made. I swapped out the Crimson Audio interconnects between my DAC and pre for Cerious Technolgies Graphene Extremes. I thought the Crimsons were pretty darn good for the money, but the GEs, at the same price, easily surpassed them. The "realness" of voices & instruments is almost scary. That, combined with a much better sense of the air and space around them, draws me further into the music.
One of the best things about the GE ICs is that they are affordable for most anyone who is serious about enjoying their music.
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Wow, talk about paranoid conspiracy theory...🙄
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GeorgeLoFi ...
Perhaps you haven't noticed, but this thread has evolved far beyond being just about fuses. You might consider starting your own thread for anti fuse folks like yourself. You know, kind of like the Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist Papers.
I, for one, will promise not to rain on your parade.
Frank |
It's inevitable that as a thread has grown such as this one and as posters have gotten to know one another that topics of shared interest will emerge. This only makes sense to me, the majority of the posters here are quite obviously music lovers. That common bond will lead to discussing favorite artists and their recordings.
I find there is only so much I can post in regard to the fuses. Either people accept my listening impressions or they don't. It won't affect or alter my actual experiences. Those who consider this upgrade fuse experience hogwash and voodoo will continue to do so. That's fine by me.
Most of us here who've found the premium fuses to improve our sound quality also share similar taste in music. From my perspective its been a double win scenario , good fuses improving the sound of good music. That isn't going to change.
It's an open forum and the anti upgrade fuse proponents are here to express themselves freely which is as it should be. I'm of the assumption that we're all adults and thus capable of forming our own opinions based on individual experiences.
Charles |
Nice post as usual Charles. Well said. +1 |
+1 charles1dad and grannyring
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I've not done much posting on the forums but have started to recently.
Here in Australia we have fuse skeptics and even cable skeptics(yes, a retailer who said that they make no improvement).
I'm a skeptic extraordinaire but was lent an aftermarket fuse to try in my Audio Research Reference CD player.
Well, I became a convert, a born again after market fuse lover.
I have used the Beeswax, SR Red and Black and Hi Fi Tuning, in all manner of components and brands.
All have, to my ears, been an improvement over the stock supplied fuse.
Why, I have no idea, but they do.
People may say it is all in the mind, but to those skeptics I implore you to try it, you may find you are born again.
Hallelujah!
All praise to aftermarket fuses!
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woogie59, Some of the posters here have tried the upgrade level fuses and reported they made no difference at all. I accept their findings. No audio product I'm aware of has 100 % positive results for everyone.
Where are you using your Beeswax fuses? I bet they are quite good. Charles |
I have the beeswax fuse in my preamp, in my system they are a big improvement, worth every penny I payed for them |
Charles,
I agree. Best to try and see if it works for you.
As I said, it works for me.
It's only a small outlay and if it doesn't "float your boat" then no real harm done and like all of us you can sell it on for nominal loss.
Re the Beeswax, I use it on a Audio Research Ref75SE and one on a vintage Meridian CD player.
Both sound better over the standard fuse.
Changing fuses maybe more noticeable/beneficial the better the gear is.
We all have different perceptions regarding what we like and don't like, what we hear and don't hear, ie. different cables, amps etc.
Experiment.
Isn't the differences we perceive half the fun of being interested in our hobby.
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Woogie59,
Yes, the subjective perceptions we experience and comment on with other interested listeners/thread posters is "half the fun " as you put it. Since my initial exposure to the world of High End Audio nearly 30 years ago its been nothing but fun and definitely a learning experience.
I’ve been able to sidestep the angst and frustration that some have gone through in this endeavor for one simple reason. It was never a goal to achieve so called "perfect sound" or to obtain the " best" component/product that exists. Fortunately for me I recognized early on that there’s no such thing.
I accept the reality that there are indeed plenty of very good to excellent audio products available and finding wonderful synergy among them to complete an enduring satisfying home audio system is very doable. It does require some trial and error, time and sometimes a little bit of luck. With the right approach and frame of mind it can be enjoyable and no doubt informative along the way. Attending audio shows and listening to the systems of numerous people over the years has been fruitful and again fun.
As you have noted the main focus is what can I do to improve the sound and as a result enhance the experience of listening to music. This is a different mindset than developing what may evolve into an obsession with the "perfect sound " /"best" product objective. Anyway that is what’s worked out better for me and I assume others as well.
The higher quality fuses have contributed a positive musical effect in my quest for improving the level of listening to music in the comfort of my home. They will not be the answer for everyone quite obviously. As for myself, , you and a significant number of people on this thread they have been a cost effective asset. Woogie58 I hope life is treating you well in the land down under and welcome to this thread. By the way I read the description of your components/system on another thread. You’ve assembled a really nice system that must reproduce your music beautifully. I’m unfamiliar with your Australian Whatmough speakers but I suspect that they are quite impressive 😊
Charles |
Charles,
Thanks for the kind words.
It's been very warm here this summer, some western Sydney areas having their hottest February daytime temp, 46.7C (116F) on record.
Yes almost there with my system(famous last words).
Colin Whatmough was held in high regard as a speaker designer and manufacturer before his sudden death. His speakers have been available at certain times in the UK and the USA over the past 20 years but I don't think so anymore.
I think his current P33 model, both normal and the Signature iterations, are another classic design of Colin's. To me they easily out perform imported speakers twice their price. Regards Bruce |
I haven't followed this thread too closely so I'm unaware of any consensus regarding position of fuses other than my own experiences regarding such. I found reverse, meaning lettering and wording, numbering to be backwords when I put in my SR Black into my Quicksilver full function preamp. A recent experience regarding the SR 20's in my Wright Mono 8's has me wanting to relay it to any who may find it helpful.
I recently recapped my phono stage with Mundorf's SIO, to most excellent results btw, and after letting them settling in for at least a couple hundred hours I was getting, along with more detail, a grunge, or grainyness at times when things get cooking with a lot of instruments at once. I was questioning this thinking more break-in perhaps, alignment/set up, or this that and the other, even my soldering perhaps and after addressing all the above and really dialing it all in to the nitty picky utmost, I thought fuses. So I pulled out the SR 20's in my Wright Mono 8's and I discovered they were in like normal left to right lettering and it was then I remembered reversing them for shite and giggles. I totally forgot I did that getting caught up in the excitement of the Mundorf cap tweak. After reversing, congestion grainy type thing all but gone. This is my story and I'm sticking to it. |
That’s weird. I thought SR didn’t believe in fuse directionality. Ergo, the lettering direction would be irrelevant. The lettering direction would help figure out which way to flip the fuse when listening for proper direction, preventing the fuse from looking symmetrical. But the direction of the lettering would not be consistent from fuse to fuse if one were hoping the direction of letters was the tipoff. |
Got ya. I'm not sure what to make of it. All I can say is it went away after.
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I always try the fuse both ways.
Sometimes better, sometimes not.
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In my experience, the Black fuses are not so much inherently directional as they are initially directional.
In this regard, I'm interested in anyone's opinion on the matter, but only those with actual in-depth listening experience.
Despite the caveat above, I'm sure that our favorite thread lurkers will have a cow over this observation. So it goes.... |
Did you mean crow?
Never heard the "cow" comment before, but I'm an Australian and we say to "crow over", ie. to boast, gloat over something.
I have three blacks and I just put them in, listen, then reverse and select the way which sounds the best(I have heard a difference in some cases).
I did the same for the two beeswax and the 6 x Hi Fi Tuning Fuses(which have a directional arrow). |
After Geofkkait chimed in I decided to call Alfred and ended up speaking with his lovely wife Betty who confirmed after a 5 minute hold, she needed to look it up on SR literature, that the SR 20's are indeed directional with the the "0" end being inserted into the fuse holder. She also said the Blacks are less so and try it and see it which way sounds better to you. I know, wishy washy. But experience with these fuses bear it out. I also found this but may be may be nothing new to you old hands,
In my experience nearly all fuses are directional including SR Quantum Fuses. I recommend you try them in one component at at time and experiment with directionality. You should immediately notice a preference for one direction or the other. If a component has more than one fuse use a DVM (Digital Volt Meter) to determine direction of current in the circuit. Once you know the direction of current in each fuse holder place all fuses in like direction paying attention to have the letters on the SR Quantum Fuses all in the same direction either reading in the direction of signal flow, or against. Next switch direction and the correct match to your component should be readily apparent. There are just too many variables for me to make a blanket recommendation for all components when such a simple and definitive test is available.
As to having to take a reviewers word for it (or not,) regarding which fuse to try / buy you have the option to audition SR Quantum Fuses for 30 days in your system with a full refund of the cost of the fuse should you elect to go a different way. Our 30-day no risk audition policy takes the guess work out of trying SR Quantum Fuses and is offered because I am certain we make the best sounding fuses in the world.
Yours in music,
Ted Denney III
Lead Designer, Synergistic Research Inc.
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Sorry to chime in again. The fuses should be evaluated one at a time. Trying to evaluate all fuses in the same direction according to the lettering, then reversing all of them at the same time is not effective, at least not unless the fuse directionality is predetermined at the factory. It’s like trying to solve three simultaneous equations in five unknowns. Since SR is correct that all fuses are directional if only 50% are in the right direction the overall sound will still be less than ideal, I.e., when all fuses are in the correct direction, which is different from saying the lettering of fuses always goes in the same direction for best sound. Repeat the entire process, one fuse at a time, you know, just in case you were unsure of the direction of one or more fuses the first time around. At the risk of alienating anyone I will repeat for the umpty umpth time fuses are directional because wire is directional.
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Direction of current in each fuse holder? This by itself is ridiculous, and "fuse direction" isn't merely a myth, it's irrelevant in the face of even a basic understanding of electric current. "At the risk of alienating anyone I will repeat for the umpty umpth time" that fuses are NOT part of the signal path and have zero…and I mean zero…effect on the signal when performing properly. Zero. If a fuse does have an impact on the signal in any meaningful way, things have somehow gone wrong, and the tiny wire has melted…like it's supposed to. |
"I will repeat for the umpty umpth time that fuses are Not part of the signal path and have zero...and I mean zero...effect on the signal when performing properly. Zero."
OK wolf_garcia, if one were to use that logic then it would seem to me that the use of after market power cords would also have "zero...and I mean zero...effect on the signal"
But I don't think anyone here would claim that power cords don't make a difference, even you. So why is it not possible for the fuse that passes the same power as the power cord does to have no possibility of changing the sound we hear?
Just wondering,
Gary
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"At the risk of alienating anyone I will repeat for the umpty umpth time" that fuses are NOT part of the signal path and have zero…and I mean zero…effect on the signal when performing properly.
Thanks so much for reassuring me. Your wisdom means the world to me. |
The only direction of current in an AC circuit we should be worried about is the direction pointing towards the system. You can forget about the direction pointing toward the power plant. Hel-loo!
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I do think power cords are important as without them there is no power getting to the gear. Use power cords…they're a good thing. |
Gary, sorry but really? Just like filter caps, chokes, and diodes all these power supply parts impact the resulting sound. The fuse is part of the power supply. If you doubt it, then build the exact same tube amp with common cheap electrolytic caps the the other with Clarity TC film caps. Listen to both. Yes indeed in one sense all power supply parts are indeed in the signal path.
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Bill,
Gary is actually making the same point as you. Unquestionably the power supply affects the audio signal and significantly impacts sound quality. Each part in a power supply has an effect as you've pointed out with your examples. All who aspire to build a high quality audio component put much attention and effort toward the power supply.
Charles |
Sorry Gary. I see you posted a quote from another person. My mistake. I like to read Wolf's posts and find him very entertaining actually. Wolf you have this one wrong however. Sorry.
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That's quite alright grannyring, guess I need to figure out how to separate the quote of another person from the rest of my post.
Gary
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Yesterday I finally got around to putting an SR Black fuse into my Plinius SA-Reference amp main fuse compartment and I heard an immediate improvenent.
:-)...
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