Synergistic Red Fuse ...

There you go again generalizing and blurring things.

Rhetoric need not be hyperbole though hyperbole is one form of rhetoric.

Fascinating Fuse thread.

The problem I have is I can change nothing and things may still sound subtly different to me day by day, listening session by listening session for reasons unknown.

But the differences are subtle and seldom ever affect my end enjoyment. I suspect my own mood and perhaps mindset of the hour to be a factor especially when it comes to any emotional response to what I hear.  "Dammit Spock,  I’m a person not a listening machine." Probably a good thing.

I do not have time to dabble with fuse directions normally. If there was a problem to start with and I thought it might be that, I probably would. but I can’t even account for how things that vary regularly out of my control like weather, air pressure, humidity electricity etc. are affecting what I hear exactly at any particular time versus another.

Or how can I even assume my gear always works consistently and that there is not some natural audible variation over time? There is a lot of complex technology in these toys.

So I just throw in the towel and be happy I like it as much as I do regularly. Not the "audiophile" way of thinking I’m sure.

I guess if you flip or change fuses enough with enough a/b tests the results become obvious.

Geoff if you know just be nice and share and stop teasing the audiophiles.

A fuse is perhaps the least complicated part in electronics.   Except for wires maybe, at least the normal kind.

Fuses conduct electricity normally and blow out at certain designed current levels .  Thats pretty much it.   No two things ever perform exactly alike.   If two fuses perform differently under normal operation, most likely there is a measurable difference in conductivity based on the design and construction.   Or just a better seating and contact with its holder can make a big difference here as mentioned.   

Regarding what makes a fuse directional, I have no clue.  So I would not worry about it at all in the grand scale of things until there is a reason.  Especially with AC current.   There could be differences that can only be determined by trial and error case by case.   If it matters to someone, then by all means have at it.

macdad, every device is designed to use a particular value fuse in terms of how much current will pass before blowing out.

The risk with audiophiles is forgetting what the primary purpose of a fuse is: to protect the equipment from accidental damage. Its a safety device first, an audiophile tweak second. I’m not sure how much attention teh companies selling fuses based on how they sound pay attention to making sure they work properly to-spec, which is the first most important thing.

If a device requires a certain rating fuse and it blows consistently, then either there is a problem with the device or the fuse. You want to change to a different fuse of the correct rating. Going to a higher rated fuse that passes more current is the wrong thing to do. It could result in damage to your expensive gear. All for a freaking hifi fuse!!!!!

"It’s not rocket science."

I suppose it is whatever one wants to make out of it. Especially if all fuses sound different in each piece of gear and even more so pointing the other way.  Maybe worse....

"Don’t you know?"

Apparently either you don’t or do and won’t say. So if you do how about answering your own question? Or do you derive some kind of unique pleasure from being a tease?  Not that anyone really cares most likely at this point.  Just saying...

Sounds like a good idea!

Fun with fuses....

Papa, yes, I know what you mean.    Next time I open up my gear I'll have to see what kind of fuses the makers stuck in there.   Hopefully up to par with the other parts.   Or maybe not.

Ok so  there is a featured listing on Agon for Synergistic Quantum Black Fuse that indicates use of Graphene in the fuse, which would be a fairly significant thing I would guess  regardless of how it may or may not sound.

Yet on vendors site they mention use of a "special alloy" but not Graphene specifically it seems.

So is it or is it not using Graphene?   Anyone know for sure?

The add also states:

"The Synergistic Research BLACK Quantum Fuse is by far Synergistic's highest performance fuse to date. Introducing Synergistic Research BLACK featuring a patent pending UEF coating and Graphene with 8 million times the conductive density of copper. "

8 million times?   As Maxwell Smart used to say I find that hard to believe!   Maybe I'm wrong.   If true, I would really like to hear the difference (without without having to drop $100 up front though if avoidable).

Any clarifications appreciated.   These kinds of wild claims from high end companies really set off my BS meter.

Glad they sound and work well according to the users in any case.

 

I will buy anything possibly if the value proposition is there.

$100 fuse? Maybe. It all depends on the detailed facts which with high end tweaks are often murky at best. Individuals proclaiming better sound are always useful data points. A somewhat large consensus over time is even better.

In general I shy away from things shrouded in secrecy and murky facts because the value proposition is not clear.

I have no problem conceiving that a fuse could be a performance bottleneck in some cases so I think it is a topic worth understanding better. Certainly a fuse that is blown does not sound at all and fuses are not strict binary devices so all intermediate states of sound quality from properly functioning fuse to blown fuse are surely possible. So I have no doubt each fuse can sound different and often might even.

Also I am guessing if graphene is used, its the conductive filament on the inside out of view.

If one of these suckers ever blows and becomes useless and gets replaced like can happen to any fuse worth their salt, maybe someone will open it up and check out the magic sauce inside and report? That would be interesting.

If in fact its 8000000 times as conductive as alternatives, graphene or otherwise, I might be convinced to bite the bullet and try. That would be a good indicator that this is truly an innovative product that might push some boundaries. Like magnetic wires but only $100, a bargain by audiophile standards for a tweak that works.

if not its just false advertising by the high end audio guys distributing Synergistic and others. Not good....

BTW I see at least one other product listed on Synergistic site indicating use of graphene, so apparently its something SR deals with. I just did not see anything indicating graphene used specifically in the SR fuses. It would impress the heck out of me personally if true, FBOFW.

"You’ve been active in this thread almost from the beginning ... and you’re still in doubt?? Even with a 30 day return policy?"

A 30 day return policy would sem to take the risk out of it.

Thing is I spent a lot of time and effort to get just the sound that I have currently, so I am not interested in rocking the cart. When times comes to replace a fuse, I would consider these. Have not done the research yet to determine the best option and cost. I would want to be confident whatever product I buy will not damage my gear. I can assure all I will not knowingly  buy an inferior quality fuse.

What device has been found the better fuse makes the biggest difference?

Would need to see what fuses are in my current gear that could be replaced as well. I have amps, a pre-amp, an integrated amp and a DAC that might be candidates.

Al,

A sensible position to take, as usual.

Its a reasonable argument I think that a fuse that conducts better and is less susceptible to vibrations and resonances performs better and might even sound better in some cases as a result.

No two anything are ever created exactly equal.  Its more a matter of how different and how significant case by case.

As long as the fuse blows properly when it should, all one is out is $100 which is peanuts for a tweak in these parts.

BTW by far my best $100 tweak to date is use of isolating speaker stands and platforms in that price range in two of my 5 listening rooms where called for.   This has probably saved me thousands of dollars mucking around with more expensive gear to no end comparable.    Even my grandmother could hear similar differences in both cases.   Who knows what might happen with a really good or innovative  funky fuse.

Do the fuses add detail?

Do you also use power conditioning of any form?

Also wondering in each case is gear used tube or SS?

That’s a very nice offer OP and much appreciated. I’ll have to see what’s in what I have. Were I to do this I’d likely start with the DAC, an mhdt Constantine. It has see through plexi glass like casing that is easy to remove as well.

I was an electronics and electronics part salesman for a bit when younger. I let products speak for themselves. Exaggerated claims were not necessary for success. Just know how to help a person find the right solution to their problem. Technical knowledge and expertise helped greatly. The best salesmen were generally the most honest and knowledgeable.  Many fuses were sold to happy customers.   Usually about 50 cents for a pack of three.  Strange nobody ever asked me how they sounded.  I would not have  known what to say.  Simpler times....

So is the original German fuse Graphene or not?

If not, either the reports are incorrect or there is something shady going on.

Unfortunately, I have kids still going to college, still a mortgage, and saving for retirement. I really can’t justify spending hundreds of dollars at present on fuses. I've spent tens of thousands to date already to get where I am and I  am currently thrilled to death with the sound of my stuff.  I spend many hours a week listening.   Maybe someday.  Good sound is always a good investment for me.  Can't live without it most likely.

BTW I grew up in Amish country. No joke. Maybe that’s part of my problem. My wife and kid’s tease me about it all the time.

I can tell from listening session to listening session what’s going on, but do I really hear things accurately? Has it improved overnight ... or not? Or, has the change actually moved things backwards a bit?

Not only that but can one be sure a change heard over the time is a change in the fuse? There is a tendancy to attribute a change over time to the last thing changed but certainly there is no rule that says that is necessarily the case. I hear differences day to day with no changes at all to my gear. Is it me? The gear? The weather? The power? All the above? Who knows.

Whatever its fun trying to figure these things out I guess.

OP my ARC sp16 pre-amp uses a 3 amp slo-blo fuse, apparently same as your ARC. I appreciate the offer but hold onto your red fuse. Fuses can blow (that’s what fuses do) and its always good to have a spare fuse. Offer much appreciated though.

I have a few significant enhancement projects already going on currently with my stuff. I’m refoaming some old Boston A40 series II speakers I have sitting around and working on getting digital USB feed from my Iphone 6s and tablet to my mhdt Constantine DAC. If I had more time to dabble I would probably take you up. Thanks again for the nice offer and gesture.

One would hope Synergistic will do something to help out in a case like this.    It is an expensive experiment for someone and not user fault if apparent correct fuse blows unexpectedly.  One the right fuse is found, should not be a common occurrence anymore I would hope.

If you confirmed the correct fuse type and value with the device maker and bought that fuse from a fuse dealer,   and the fuse blows,  I do not think you have any recourse with the fuse dealer if they choose to not replace it.

The reason is that these are fuses.  Fuses are SAFETY AND PROTECTION DEVICES.   You have to be prepared to replace one when it blows for any reason.   It goes with the turf in the case of fuses.

Yes, fuse dealer makes a hefty profit likely and could afford to replace a blown fuse here and there but no fuse dealer is obligated to replace a fuse if it blows.   Its what fuses do!!!!!

So if one is not happy I'd say find another fuse dealer whose properly spec'ed fuses do not blow when it seems they should not.

The cost of replacing expensive fuses when they blow is a topic worth some discussion I think.   Its a normal thing to expect that some fuses will blow over time for whatever reason and have to be replaced.    You might find a nice fancy fuse dealer willing to replace some to some extent but its not reasonable I would say to expect that.

If the cost of replacing blown expensive fuses becomes a problem for anyone, then I'd say you need to find an alternative.  There are many high quality commercial fuses out there for not very much certainly in comparison.  That's why 99.999999999% of the world does not use high priced fuses.

If the sound quality benefits justify the normal total cost of ownership of expensive fuses over time, then no problem.  Its the typical high end audiophile dilemma,   optimize sound quality for higher cost or not.

It would seem to me that if there is any question regarding the current rating of a fuse, a maker would lean in the direction of safety and have the fuse blow sooner rather than later. Sooner is safer. Later is riskier.

If fuse does not blow and equipment gets damaged, then the maker has a potential legal and liability problem.

if fuse blows sooner than perhaps it should, then not only is that safer and normal for a fuse but fuse must be replaced meaning more sales and revenue.

Sound like a nice business to be in as long as one plays it safe....

Its really not possible for anyone other than vendor to generalize accurately . Anything is possible including shorter triggers by design or for other reasons.

For these prices in particular you’d hope that the vendors would be as happy to fix an obvious problem in matching fuse to component at the outset and not alienate customers. These aren’t your everyday 50 cents a pack fuses.

Its funny thinking that many years ago selling hundreds if not thousands of fuses at Radio Shack and Lafayette radio I do not recall ever a case where customer demanded blown fuses be replaced for no charge. For pennies a fuse buying new fuses until the right one was found was not an issue.

No discussions about how fuses "sounded" back then either though I always preferred slow blow with more substantial filaments if an option. Simper times.

Very sticky situation.  Hopefully gets resolved in a constructive manner for all involved. 

I'm very interested to hear how it turns out.

I'd put my money on what p59 said.

Any speculation what would make a fuse take so long to break in?

I have no clue. 

jafree,

You got your answer.

Geoff,

Its Ok to have a sense of humor. No reason to get your undergarments in an uproar, as you often like to say.

   

"Starve it of current or voltage lowering its performance;"

That's the one thing I know of that a fuse might do to affect sound.

To replace or not to replace?  Simple risk versus reward.   YMMV.   If gear is under warranty and maker says no, I would not do it.    For example my Bel Canto amp manual clearly warns against user changing the fuse.   They are not under warranty though so less to loose if something goes wrong.

I can only speak for me.   I am satisfied with any properly functioning fuse of known good quality.    Devices shrouded in mystery by the maker make me nervous, especially when they are there mainly to do a common and simple job, like a fuse.   So many ways to tweak and improve a system otherwise as needed.   

If people want to hate on me or call me a troll for that, so be it.   Its a position rooted mostly in common sense I believe and worth noting.  

Again, I have nothing against those who apply fancy fuses successfully and are happy with the results.   More power to ya'll!

For those without a skeptical bone in their body, there is this Machina Dynamica product line of Geoffkait's that has your name wrtiten all over it.... :^)   Find out what artificial atoms can do for you.

Almarg,

Would it be correct to say that your technical assessment of the potential impact or not of fuses in various applications cited apply only to properly functioning poosibly brand new fuses that are also installed cleanly properly?

For example, fuse might be an electronic bottleneck if not seated in-line properly (poor connection or connections) or if partially or mostly even but not fully blown perhaps, although I have no idea the likeihood of a fuse actually being found in such an intermediate state.

Al also I am interested in you technical assessment of use of Graphene in a fuse, as claimed. In a powercord? That latter in particular would seem to have a lot of potential upside despite some of the seemingly exaggerated marketing claims I have seen.

My assessment based purely on my days as a sales tech who replaced blown fuses in customers gear when needed is that if sound was not good, re-seating the fuse usually resolved the problem. Replacing the fuse when no sound at all of course always resolved that issue.

I never even thought about how one properly installed and working fuse sounded versus another. Not to say there were not differences just nothing that jumped out at me to even consider such a thing, though I always felt it better soundwise to use slow blow fuses when possible which tended to have more robust and likely more conductive filaments but I could not even say conclusively that I actually heard a difference.

Papa, I also explained above why I am not really interested in even a free fuse. I am interested in understanding how or why they work though. It matters to me.   If I understand how something does what it does, I am more likely to jump.      That’s just me though.  There are many things I do not buy into even though I know they are good and other I do not buy into because I just don't know why I should.   People report positive changes in their systems here everyday for myriad reasons.    Gotta be selective.     For every fuse one buys there is some other good tweak out there that they are not buying.

Papa I’m referring to the technical marketing claim that the Graphene is 8000000X more conductive which seems highly unlikely. What I have read about graphene indicates the increased conductivity is a much much smaller yet still quite significant number. Someone in marketing appears to be telling a flat out lie there.   Sorry.

It has nothing to do with how much better anyone says it sounds. There is no factual basis to question what someone says they hear, other than how they know the difference is due to teh fuse, especially when claimed the change takes time to happen. As Al has pointed out many times both here and in other threads, many things hard to detect can change over time yet the tendency is to associate the change with the last known change.

Inquiring minds want to know.....

Audiophile fuses are always a controversial topic.

People hear improvements but nobody can explain why.

That makes it interesting to me at least.  

You'd think that some knowledgeable EEs in these parts could explain it.   But not the case.  

So there are some happy customers here hearing benefits yet why remains  a mystery.

That's pretty interesting stuff compared to a lot of more mundane topics one often finds.

I have no conflict of interest either.  I even cited how the fuses might make a difference.   But I am also not an EE.     So reduce my skeptic rating accordingly please.   :^)  

OP, if you really want me to try the 3Amp fuse, go ahead and send it to me.  IF you take the time and effort to do it I will give it a shot in my ARC sp16.   It's totally up to you.

Geoff with all due respect you are a vendor and do have a conflict of interest.   

But seriously, Mopman, how does my vendor status enter into a discussion of fuses? I don’t sell fuses? You seem to be saying vendors can’t participate in discussions on ANY topic and should be banned from the site.

You're a smart guy.  Figure it out.

I didn't say you can't participate in anything.   Only that you are a vendor selling other poorly understood tweaks and therefore may be judged to have a conflict of interest.   Especially when you bash "skeptics".   I'm sure you won't likely  judge yourself guilty on that but others easily could, which is all that really matters. 

"So which is it, you think fuses work, you think fuses don’t work?’

I think it is definitely possible that different fuses could make things sound different at least in some cases. I’ve posted that on many occasions.  I've never said they don't work

Ok, so now I have no clue what in the blue hell these quantum chips do or when to use them or not.

Good thing this is just audio and not prescription drugs. The ramifications of trying things blindly just because would be much higher.

With audio, what’s the worst thing that can happen? Less perfect sound? Or if just a placebo no change at all that perhaps some might still hear for whatever reason. As long as the fuse is reliable to blow when it should.....

I will try my free trial fuse from OP both with and without and report on what I hear when I can.

This better be good!!!! I’d rather spend my time listening to the great sound and music I already have and worked hard to achieve then experimenting with things I have no clue about how they work or why. :^)

In any case when I tell my more normal than I friends including some world class systems engineers that I am experimenting with $100 hifi fuses and quantum chips, that will make for some entertaining discussions. Especially if they truly seem to work and make things sound better. I have absolutely no clue how a quantum chip works. Makes a fancy fuse seem mainstream in comparison.

Wolf,

Once I get all that I will surely be hooked and hired ninja assassins may not be able to make me part with my new friends.

We'll see....  :^)

OP,

These are computer systems engineers like me. Not EEs,. Some of which are interested in hifi, some not.

They like to know what makes things tick in general, but are smart enough to know what they know and what they do not and act accordingly.

It’ll make for interesting conversation around the water cooler. That’s about as far as I will predict.

Sales and engineering are two different things for sure.

"clear,understandable  and educational"

Hard to beat that combo. 

Almarg also thanks so much for your kind words.  I am beyond flattered that you find my posts and occasional ramblings helpful. 

Oregonpapa,

Red quantum fuse just arrived. Nice looking fuse, nicely packaged in original box. Seems to have some weight to it compared to most fuses as I remember. Thanks!

I will take it home with me today and see what happens. Might get to try it out tonight in my Audio Research sp16 pre-amp if all goes well.

Hang on to your hats.....

Al, right amps and volts are two different things. Fuses protect against current/amps. Thanks for that clarification.

Countdown resumed....

"The analysis paralysis syndrome suffered by most of engineering mentality must be hell. "

Good engineers in industry learn to always be on the lookout for analysis paralysis and deal with it effectively as needed to accomplish the task at hand.

Just part of the job. Not hell at all for those who fit the mold.

My wife is the opposite. My engineering mentality for lack of a better term is likely hell for her from time to time but she knows it usually pays off when properly and reasonably applied. She knows for example in the end it pays our bills nicely :^)

"Just because" is not a reason most good engineers will easily default to though.

Heading home soon.    I'm planning to get to it later this evening.  Stay tuned.....

Al,

Are you saying the 500V rating is safe even though it is twice what the vendor specifies because such an event /surge can never happen?

Also I’m wondering if the 500V rating alone compared to most fuses rated for US standard voltage at 120 volts might alone account for some sound difference in some cases. I don’t see many other commonly used fuses rated for 500 volts when countries in fact go no more than 230 volts or so. What would be the rational for a 500V rating in this case?

Here is a list of voltage standards per country I found.  Nothing near 500 V.

http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/ac_world_volt_freq_list.htm#.Vub7Ok_nQvY

Hmm, Ok issue # 1 for me with this fuse may be a show stopper in that it appears to not match my ARC pre-amp fuse specs.

ARC sp 16 manual indicates it takes a 3A, 230V  slo blow fuse.

Syn. Red fuse is T 3.15A, 500V.

T indicates slo blow I believe (check), 3.15 A is close enough, but 500V rating means this fuse will take slightly more than twice as many amps/power to blow as it should with properly rated 230V equivalent fuse.

Unless I'm missing something I cannot put this into my ARC sp16 without risking damage.

I won’t even ask if anyone knows why the black sounds better than the red or how to decide reliably between the two. :^)  Are the blacks also rated to 500V?

Yes, good thing Al is out there. I suspected that the higher voltage rating was OK but needed to do some research to confirm. I read a few misinformed blog threads on other sites that gave me pause. Never encountered a fuse rated 500V before for anything having to do with audio. So chalk one up for Synergistic research there regardless of the outcome.

See specs and facts DO matter and usually only help.

OK,   my original post was found on another thread.    I'll put it back here where it belongs. 

Thanks once again to Al once again for locating my missing post.    Not sure how it landed there.    its possible I updated the wrong Synergistic Thread.    I was in a bit of a rush yesterday eve.

I posted yesterday eve and it was apparently deleted within the hour.

I spent a fair amount of time last night carefully comparing and writing the results just to have it deleted.

The fuse was fine but I can't say I  heard any clear difference either way.

After a deleted post sharing honest results. I'm not very inclined to invest more time with this at this point.  Makes me wonder what's going on with censorship of these forums.

Ok initial listening session done.

I spent about an hour swapping fuses in the arc sp16 and comparing. Also changing fuse direction. I left the quantum sticker thingy off.

So look, the red fuse sounded good. So did the stock fuse that came in the arc sp16 new. If there was a difference it did not jump out at me. Both sounded similarly good with great dynamics big soundstage excellent detail and the whole nine yards. I cannot really attribute anything unique to the red fuse so far.

I listened to 3 very good quality recordings, all lossless flac files ripped to my music server using dbpoweramp: The Mariners Revenge Song by The Decemberists, The William Walton Crown Imperial Coronation March on Mercury Living Presence,. And The Grand Duel by Luis Bacalov from the Kill Bill Pt 1 soundtrack.

System used was Squeezebox Touch to mhdt Constantine DAC to ARC sp16 pre-amp to BelCanto Ref1000m amps to Dynaudio Contour 1.3 mkII speakers. IC from DAC to pre and pre to amp both DNM Reson. Audioquest CV-6 speaker cables to Dynaudios.