Synergistic calls out Audioholics

Regarding cables, I have been using the same Kimber cables for years. Never tried to change them out with anything better or worse. The set up sounds quite good to my ears, I’m not a “chaser” of these things.  But I did have something interesting happen recently. While making changes to the components in a crossover I’m working on, I had to swap out the hook up wires as I had to move the crossover outside of the enclosure so I could more easily make changes to the components. I had run out of the 16ga I was using and had to switch to some very questionable 20ga wire. 
All of a sudden, Bill Charlap’s piano was distorting like crazy around the 1K mark. 
Wires. That was the cause. 

One of slimiest snake oil salesmen in the biz. 

@mikado430


 Well, it’s a bit late for that. Gene is kind of put himself in a bad place. Read through the recent posts above. If has left the building, when and how are what remain

I will repeat something i wrote already but which is very important to understand....

That will explain why i am not very interested by the products of one of the side nor by the pseudo debunking claim of the other side...

For their personal feud i am not interested by inquiring i am not a judge...




There are 2 falsehoods i see percolating in the audio industry...

---One is a sin by OMISSION by the electronic design marketing companies when they suggest: buy our own electronic design and your audiophile experience is assured and warrented...

This is half truth at best nevermind the real S.Q. value of the product because audiophile experience is ALSO mostly tributary of the controls of many psycho acoustical factors outside the scope of the electronic design of any piece of electronic gear speakers included....

---The other sin is by FALSIFICATION of science by abuse of some aspect of technology... Some tried to convince people that audiophile experience is reducible ONCE AND FOR ALL to the measures of some known chosen electrical parameters... This is completely false because audiophile experience is generally tributary of many psychoacoustical factors outside of the scope of these selected chosen parameters...The EARS are a measuring apparatus and the most important one, negating this is not only blindness but pure stupidity and plain ignorance...



Then i dont need Gene nor Ted...

😁😊

By the way i know first hand that mechanical acoustic controls exceed anything in upgrading power.... We listen to speakers/room at last...And i can replicate the audible effects of many costly "tweaks" anyway....

For those hypnotized by pricing, i never listen to anything that moves me enough to trash my 500 bucks system correctly embedded.... Than forget price, think about mechanical, electrical ands especially acoustical embeddings... Trust yourself....

If you want to know if your room is good, listen to The Three penny opera 1958 by Kurt Weill with Lotte Lenya and if you could listen the orchestra playing in front of you, seating in front of your speakers, but the singers voices coming from your back wall where there is no speakers, your room is under acoustic controls....If not, buying a cable AT ANY PRICE will not give you this nor buying most tweaks or a costly dac or amplifier.... Acoustic is key....

I will not speak about voice timbre or instrumental timbre which sound unnatural even in very costly systems or very tweaked one i listen to...

Forget price think acoustic....

Is there a cure for minions?

Hopefully Gene won't get sucked in by that Snake Oil salesman and the overpriced nonsense that he sells 

First off, if you can’t hear differences in cables you have either a hearing problem or a resolution issue.  Also, Fun fact...dug out some old cables I have on hand just to check my ears.  They all sound different...sorry Audioholics 😔  Reminded me why I love MIT products...just so much more realistic sounding on every level!  My REV MIT loom delivers better tone, articulation, clarity, dynamics, bass definition and extended airy highs.  Everything sounds muffled and constricted comparatively!

I dont know, In my system cables dont make much of a difference. last 20 years with 10k usd spent in cables … my experience has been no to some sound difference at most. In my very early years I saw a big change going from 18/22 gauge to 12/10 gauge. My current two channel system is paradigm signature s8 v1 + parasound jc monoblocks + parasound jc2. I use audioquest type 9, and kimber 12vs (cable length is Left 15 feet, Right 8 feet) and the sound difference is extremely minimal, not a game changer in anyway. I see more value in room treatment, speaker positioning to get better sound than investing in cables. I see many pictures in audio forms, and here where people place tower speakers 6 inches from the back wall, 10 inches from the side walls, and 5 feet apart...and expect them to sound good...I dont understand it. At the end of the day everyone experiences sound differently, so I can only speak for myself and my system. My second system is a 2.1 setup composed of kef ls50 meta, parasound hint 2.1, M&K v12 subwoofer, with bluejeans 10 gauge cables - and that system sounds phenomenal - not the most high-end system but pretty good for price, and can be considered endgame for many people. 

You are talking about consumer advocacy. I am talking about groups that target one company to influence them to end their business relationship with another company. It happens all the time. We read about it almost daily.  In those cases, the loss of business is real and very easily measured, yet legal ramifications are rare.

dletch2 - You guess wrong on me not being a lawyer. Going back to our discussion: Intentional torts have different damages than say a tort based on negligence. I’m sure Ted has claimed injunctive relief and punitive damages. It was really foolish for Gene to contact dealers and distributors that Ted is in contract with - like I said an hour ago that's when Gene stepped over the line.

There are activist groups, and then there are activist groups. To collectively join and agree to refuse to buy a certain product is one thing.
It's in the realm of a boycott.

To actively go beyond those bounds by harassing, intimidating, showing up in a companies lobby, or at the door of a medical provider, or storming the capitol of a state or country, is not being an activist group.

I do believe the law does not differentiate between physically being at one's doorstep and using other nefarious means to harm a business. 

All the best,
Nonoise

sbayne402 posts04-16-2021 1:32pm

dletch2 - "is it reasonable to contact these people?" or "trying to divert business your way" is not the legal standard or issue here. This is about INTENT to interfere with a business relationship/contract. SR has business relationships/contracts with its dealers and distributors. 

I am going to guess you are not a lawyer?

sbayne401 posts04-16-2021 12:50pmdletch2 - Legally, you are not understanding what has occurred. Trying to dissuade a CONSUMER from buying a product is much different legally from contacting a companies’ DEALERS AND DISTRIBUTORS with the INTENT of inflicting economic damage on that company. A similar claim is Intentional Interference with a Business Contract. If Gene has competent legal counsel I'm sure he will find out the difference soon.

No, I am understanding, but you are talking about influencing consumers. That is not what these advocacy groups do. They target major corporations to influence them to end their business relationships with other corporations. I.e. like contacting companies to stop advertising with Fox News for example.


As well, he would have to be able to show damages. He has shot himself in the foot on that one, because he has said repeatedly that all the naysayers don't hurt him one bit, and has put that in writing on social media. Going to be hard to walk that back.


Ted will also not be able to claim his personal Facebook account is independent of his company because of his position and the clear tying of his personal account to his company.  It appears that Ted may have initiated this war as well, which could play into a legal ruling.

dletch2 - "is it reasonable to contact these people?" or "trying to divert business your way" is not the legal standard or issue here. This is about INTENT to interfere with a business relationship/contract. SR has business relationships/contracts with its dealers and distributors.  

Of course the result of the challenge is now two busy threads here including one started by Mr. Denney of SR.

They say any publicity is good publicity as long as you can keep on denying the charges.

There is that karma thing though, but I predict SR will see more sales and more profit now as a result of free publicity here and there will be nothing more in regards to objective measurements provided so no additional costs or overhead incurred. Profits!!!! Smart!

G-d bless free internet sites.

sbayne400 posts04-16-2021 12:29pmRight, this is pretty minor as far as the dollar amounts involved. Intentional interference claims are fairly common amongst larger corporations wherein hundreds of millions of dollars are at issue.

These are often contractual interference and when really big, end up as anti-trust.  Things like coerced exclusivity, interfering in supply chains, etc.  Business interference usually comes from a communicated falsehood, i.e. spreading lies about a competitor.  The aspect of privilege could come into play. I.e. was it reasonable to contact these people?  Typically that is a matter of if you are a competitor, you have leeway to divert business your way, but within limits.  We aren't going to solve this here.

dletch2 - Legally, you are not understanding what has occurred. Trying to dissuade a CONSUMER from buying a product is much different legally from contacting a companies’ DEALERS AND DISTRIBUTORS with the INTENT of inflicting economic damage on that company. A similar claim is Intentional Interference with a Business Contract. If Gene has competent legal counsel I'm sure he will find out the difference soon.

sbayne400 posts04-16-2021 12:21pmdletch2 - When Gene contacted SR’s dealers and distributors directly that is when it became actionable. Nothing to do with advertising, being an "activist" or arguing on chat boards.

Activist groups directly contact companies every single day to influence them away from doing business with other companies. It happens all the time. They don't get sued because they are communicating factual information. 

Right, this is pretty minor as far as the dollar amounts involved. Intentional interference claims are fairly common amongst larger corporations wherein hundreds of millions of dollars are at issue. 

This reminds me of the time Hasbro called out Mattel to measure their toys, except that was big league, this one very minor.

dletch2 - When Gene contacted SR’s dealers and distributors directly that is when it became actionable. Nothing to do with advertising, being an "activist" or arguing on chat boards.

sbayne398 posts04-16-2021 12:09pmdletch2 - The whole basis is that Gene's actions were intentionally done to influence SR's business relationships. It's a different area of the law from a libel claim.

Which again, is just like every time an activist group contacts companies and tries to get them to pull advertising or otherwise stop their business relationship with another entity. How often do you see those activist groups getting sued? The answer is never, except when they use false claims.


Tell me one company that does not attempt to influence their customers relationships with their competitors?  Heck, if it was as simple as that, virtual all competitive advertising would be banned. Remember the old Apple/Microsoft ads?   However, there is a fine line, and whether it was crossed, would be for the courts. We are not going to resolve that here. Personally, I see actions on both their parts that could get them into legal trouble. That is why it is always best to behave as a professional.

I read one of the AGoners say he "snuck around and swapped this or swapped that to PROVE" how people were so gullible. THAT NEVER happened, EVER. NO one would let anyone near their gear for that.. NO ONE, pure and simple a BIG FAT LIE. BTW that guy quit posting, too.

No, but in my limited experience, he did post a video with recordings where he claimed a clear "audible" difference with HFTs and without.

Guess where he placed one of the HFTs?  Right next to the microphone. Not a foot away, I mean right next to it. Perhaps that was ignorance, but obviously that is going to impact what the microphone records. Someone analyzed it and showed a clear level difference from it.

Been to a demo once, and definite coaching on hearing changes, but I won't fault him, as that is common at audio shows, and county fair product sales.

dletch2 - The whole basis is that Gene’s actions were intentionally done to influence SR’s business relationships. It’s a different area of the law from a libel claim. It doesn't focus on the "truth" of the matter but the motive behind the actions. 

sbayne397 posts04-16-2021 10:09amGene contacted Synergistic Research’s dealers and distributors making claims about Ted and his products. Thats when he stepped over the line and is why he is being sued. It’s called Intentional Interference with a Business Relationship.

It must be obvious that this is not as simple as stating, "Intentional Interference ....".   For one, there likely will be a requirement to prove that the allegations are false. Otherwise every time some group tried to influence customers away from company for their business practices, they would be guilty of this, and sued. You will find it pretty hard to sue for simply communicating true information. So the question would come up, was what was communicated to these companies factual or not.


On the other hand, by Ted posting publicly, insinuating that his target was going to illegally use the GoFundMe funds, he would also be open for legal recourse.

To me, neither acted very professionally in this matter.

The original video was deleted. Was it inciting violence?

And the starting answer is:  get the video taken down.

If you go to the link right now, you get this message:

Video unavailable 
This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Audioholics.

Steve

Gene contacted Synergistic Research’s dealers and distributors making claims about Ted and his products. Thats when he stepped over the line and is why he is being sued. It’s called Intentional Interference with a Business Relationship.

Looks like video has been pulled "due to copyright claim by Audioholics"
Obviously Gene did not like it.

Ok,ready for my 1 1/2 cents? ( That’s all I can spare)  It gets a little exhausting hearing 24/7 what I need to think,how I need to think, how I should spend my money,how I shouldn’t spend my money....... Every day,everywhere,people push their opinions like they are FACT. Your opinion may be your fact,but not everyone’s. 
     
    I’m a big boy,and I am quite able to make my own decisions. Now, I do not own any SR products. That is irrelevant. Should I choose to,that is my decision,and no one else’s. You don’t think those,or any other products don’t work, cool. Don’t buy them. It’s really quite simple. A wise gentleman once gave me this advice, “ If you don’t f*** me or feed me,you don’t get a say in what I do.”  

  For those that really think they are trying to save the world on an audio forum by telling folks how they should spend their cash, PLEASE, turn your efforts elsewhere. For example, go help homeless,hungry,and abused children.  I think fuses,cables,and other tweaks are a little lower on the importance scale. 

Why would Ted ever think to send douglas_schroeder anything, he is a nobody. Ted has every right to go after no-ears gene. Gene caters to the ANA and the audiophools on a budget crowd which are all audiophools with either no ears, no revealing audio system, or no budget, or probably all 3 of these. Ted’s new videos put everything on the line for Gene where if this clown doesn’t respond, he’s name is toast, more than it is in the audio world now. 

@georgehifi

Understood.

You have been closed minded, lacking of creativity/imagination, willingness to step outside of your teeny tiny little world for a very long time.

I suspect this shows that you are, as well as all of the above, incapable of personal growth or expanding your experience of the world.

Good to know. And I’m so happy that not all are as you. We would not be able to use computers and communicate via the internet, Fly in airplanes, travel to the moon, create vaccines etc...

Thanks OP, I thought I could rattle on. The problem is what was answered?

We all have a choice, and yet there are those that champion THEIR cause through my purchase. I have a simple piece of advice. Mind your own business.

Again and again I read "I just don’t like So and So selling his snake oil".

If you haven’t suffered loss from SR products, who has?

I’ve never read any information or complaints that reflected anything other than SR will return your money.

I read he is a used car salesman or a real estate salesman. What is wrong with a used car or real estate salesman?

What do you call a person that BUYS a used car or a new or used house?.

I suppose the next logical step in the eyes of our beloved champions is to thank them for all there hard work.. The problem I’m having is, I don’t need or want their help.. NOW if they could figure that out, we would be solid as a rock..

prof... Keep it simple, you’re not a Master M.. Even Mozart had his Salieri.
You argue well, in your own world.. Seems pretty big to.. "Planet Prof"

George did you trick your customer and tell him you changed the fuse, BUT didn't? NO George or the others haven't even tried SR fuses, cables or any other product, and if he had.. guess what.. He could have gotten his money back..

I read one of the AGoners say he "snuck around and swapped this or swapped that to PROVE" how people were so gullible. THAT NEVER happened, EVER. NO one would let anyone near their gear for that.. NO ONE, pure and simple a BIG FAT LIE. BTW that guy quit posting, too.

Onward with the American dream Mr. SR, I wish you and yours well and GREATER fortunes...

Me I’m a Rolls kind of guy, chauffeur to the airport.... :-)

Tap Tap Samba.. Positions please!!

Regards

Are you kidding? I’ve been an anti "snake oil" campaigner for years. (use the advance search it’s your friend just use voodoo or snake oil word and georgehifi user)

George,

Have you ever heard any of his products? If so, which ones and where?

Simple yes or no question.

@unobtaniumears

Weakness in his eyes?

Really?

Hi Mitch,

As if it isn’t clear enough: I’m not accusing anyone or any company of "fraud."



You brought up the subject of "IF <--- note the "If" - a company sold a product that doesn’t do what it claims, but some people believe it and pay for it, what’s the harm?"


I was curious how the logic of your take on that has implications in other consumer areas. But I guess you don’t want to play that out to see the implications.



As I have said a billion times here: I’m fully supportive of anyone buying whatever they want for whatever reason! If someone doesn’t give a damn about objective verification, tries a product, "hears" something that makes him happy and he wants to pay for it...GREAT for that person! Nobody should be forced in to any particular method of buying gear. Follow your bliss. So you seem to have made some incorrect inference about my attitude.


All I’m saying is: what’s wrong with anyone testing a product using objective data, relevant to the claims made for the product? As I said, isn’t the more information we have for a product the better, given the wide range of approaches many audiophiles bring to the hobby? If you don’t care about certain objective data, don’t bother with it. If you do, then it’s nice to have it available.


As for SR’s products: Anyone who likes the products and buys them on their own subjective impressions, enjoy!


Personally I’d prefer to see some of the claims objectively verified by another technically competent party, before I would be ready to buy such things. Which is why I’d like to see Gene take up SR’s offer. That would be fun and possibly very interesting. And like I said, I would actually like it if SR’s products had some objective verification. That would be cool, and it would increase my own interest in the products...who knows maybe even purchasing one of them.


But, again, that’s my personal criteria for certain products, and I begrudge no one who takes a different approach.


(I’m not going to insult people as "clowns" etc as I have received from others on this thread. I respect anyone’s right to practice the hobby in the way they enjoy).

Cheers!

(I think I’m outta this thread. If Gene measures the stuff I’m sure there will be another thread on the outcome).

@prof 
Unless you have proof of fraud, you are left with overstated marketing hype.  How are you going to prove anything when there are so many happy customers and impressed professional reviewers?  Why even argue about it?  Let them hear what they hear, believe what they believe, and be happy with their cables and tweaks.  If you don't believe the SR claims, don't buy the products.  Why have a dog in the fight?

At the 2018 AXPONA Ted had a room set up with his stuff using Magico speakers. He demoed a song with his HFT thingies and his small bass boxes and then removed them. I couldn't hear a difference regarding the HFTs but I did think I could hear a small difference with the little bass cubes. Then he shut off the Atmosphere thing in the middle and WHOA! The soundstage collapsed and the entire presentation went flat and dry. I looked around the room and everyone I could see looked shocked. It was not a subtle difference. I am a skeptic about tweaks but this was unmistakable. I could easily hear a difference.

I don't know what the Atmosphere does but it does something. I can't make heads or tails regarding the explanation on his website but I really want to hear that thing again.

All his stuff is like that. Some more dramatic than others. But all works beautifully. 

However, just as we aren't able to prove with measurement everything we are able to hear, so also we are not all experienced or skilled at recognizing every aspect of the music that we hear. 

Not playing word games, but words are involved. There is a very real debate as to whether we hear first, or have the words first, or if these two seemingly unrelated things somehow happen together. 

But when you think about it- music. What is the difference between music and any other sound? We joke about it with music we don't like, rap or whatever, and say, "That's not music." But seriously, where does this idea come from, that certain patterns of pressure waves are music while others are not? 

It is very common for people to take things for granted, then use these assumptions to leap to others. The scientists did this years ago with MP3. They tested and measured and found "masking" and other supposed phenomena meant we can compress files down to a fraction, throwing away huge chunks of data, because measurement PROVES people cannot hear it. 

We laugh at this today, because today we all can hear it. Probably pretty much everyone could hear it even back then. Although I remember well the mockery I got for saying this, so maybe not. 

Anyway, point is that even though we do indeed "hear" everything, in the sense of the sound volume is loud enough to register, there are large chunks of what we "hear" that we do not have words for, therefore we do not recognize them, and so in a very fundamental way we do not hear  them at all- in the sense that we recognize the patterns for what they are. 

This higher level hearing is what we call listening. There is a vast difference between having good hearing and being a good listener. Hearing we can test with tones and meters. Listening we test with things like HFT and Atmosphere.  

When you get to the point where you are able to hear all these things, then you will know. These abilities do not just happen. Sometimes might take quite a while and a good deal of effort to get there. When you do though then everything I just said will be crystal clear. Until then, go and listen. You will see.   

"Just listen to it"

Brilliant!

+1 Nonoise 

  I think he lacks self-confidence, so his default is to be defensive.

Commonly called, having a bad conscience with the snake oil sold to the gullible, that paid for his Ferrari.

Too bad Ted can't be serious for even one second, always acting the fifth grader, getting triggered and overreacting to critics. I think he lacks self-confidence, so his default is to be defensive. Some people mistake this for bravado, but you can see the weakness in his eyes.

"I don’t know what the Atmosphere does but it does something."

They look like speakers to me. They probably are not, but then when I think again...

The video has been pulled. Darn, I wanted to see it.

At the 2018 AXPONA Ted had a room set up with his stuff using Magico speakers. He demoed a song with his HFT thingies and his small bass boxes and then removed them. I couldn't hear a difference regarding the HFTs but I did think I could hear a small difference with the little bass cubes. Then he shut off the Atmosphere thing in the middle and WHOA! The soundstage collapsed and the entire presentation went flat and dry. I looked around the room and everyone I could see looked shocked. It was not a subtle difference. I am a skeptic about tweaks but this was unmistakable. I could easily hear a difference.

I don't know what the Atmosphere does but it does something. I can't make heads or tails regarding the explanation on his website but I really want to hear that thing again.

If we are bragging, I used to buy smuggled Kinder Eggs and have, so far, survived them. I also survived assault rifles and a minefield.

I Will Survive - Gloria Gaynor (1978) - YouTube

For some time, at least.

My sons survived pebbles, kinder eggs, assault rifles and we have had no accidents yet after 2 years playing with IEDs. God Bless America!

Cool.  I know guys who survived speeding through crowded neighborhoods and driving drunk.  No accidents.  So I guess that stuff is ok and doesn't really pose a danger.

And the best way to save children from their stupid parents will be a dismantling of the traditional family unit! All for the sake of such a small number of victims whose parents were born that way (stupid) so the fault isnt really with them but with the system. Right?

My sons survived pebbles, kinder eggs, assault rifles and we have had no accidents yet after 2 years playing with IEDs. God Bless America!

The problem with Kinder Eggs is that current USA variation is missing the point. It does not have yellow in the middle. No yolk, no egg. I am heartbroken. Also, for whatever reason, toys in USA version are never as sophisticated as some of the European ones.

"...useless pebbles wrapped around a child’s neck."

Kinder Eggs are potential risk with probably very low complication rate. The real deal is in those little and very strong magnets, some shaped like small little balls, and even more so in button cell batteries. Kids love them.

For certain crowd, add toothbrushes too.

Guess the state is required to keep kids safe from their idiotic parents.

Yes they are, it's one reason family court is overwhelmed.
No assault rifles are not AOK as well as useless pebbles wrapped around a child's neck.