Synergistic calls out Audioholics


Curious to see what Gene does...

https://youtu.be/PKLuLfj2iC4


perkri

Showing 12 responses by mahgister

Some people think that intelligence can be measured... There is some correlation yes between some measuring test and some aspect of intelligence but we CANNOT measure intelligence...It is the same thing in psychoacoustic...But simple mind cannot even fathom the essential questions in psychoacoustic they think that all is solved and exposed in a book or 2 about some aspect of engineering....

Then why not cables effects, and all audible experience...All reduced to measures...

A.I. tomorrow will give them some kind of "proof"...

What i just said is anyway false, tomorrow is already today for the technocratic cult....The idolatry of technology is the opposite of science...

I am retired and i speak too much here ......But i like to partake my audio experience....
Everything humans can hear can be measured. If not then psychoacoustics is a waste of time. If we can’t measure it then we sure as hell can’t study it. What do you think psychoacoustics is? Tarot card reading?

Dr. Floyd Toole noted:

Technical measurements are demonstrably precise, repeatable events. Hearing perception is not. Obviously, the perceived event is definitive – if it does not sound good, it isn’t good. The task is to correlate what we measure with what we perceive – This is psychoacoustics.

This means that correlating measures when it is possible with hearing is essential BUT reducing hearing experience and concept to only a limited already known sets of measures, especially a limited sets imported from electrical design, that is FRAUDULENT and a negation of psychoacoustic science...

Psychoacoustic and audio experience are not reducible to a small part of electrical design ....

For example in creating the imaging experience and the listener envelopment experience electrical design measures are not the most important measures the important one are linked to the timing of the different wavefronts coming from the speakers.... All measures are not possible and dont all come from electrical design anyway....Sometimes the EARS are the most accurate measuring apparatus... Only ignorant  will negate this fact....

Is it not very simple to understand?

If not, quit posting about that.... Or go on and stick to the easy bashing of cables customers groups...And pay to be member of the skeptic sunday Jame Randi scientist club...They need members....
But if cognitive bias plays a role in why people think medically inner substances change their disease status, why could similar bias not play a role in evaluating audio?(It does).
Your habit to reduce ALL audible effects to be deceptive illusions or only BIASES if not measured or accountable by measures is linked to the false assumption and prejudice that consist to reduce any psychoacoustical experience and phenomenon to an electrical design property.... IT IS FALSE..... it contradict audio science in general and psychoacoustic science in particular....

MEASURES MUST BE CORRELATED TO HEARING.....

HEARING EXPERIENCE CANNOT BE REDUCED TO MEASURES ONLY...

If it was so, psychoacoustic science would be erased as a fundamental science and replaced by only physical acoustic....But the human subject is for the time being one of the main subject of science.... Human are not robots....

Are you able to think?


Your stategy to link audiophile experience of sound to homeopathy which you already discarded or to astrology, is a pure propaganda piece....

You would make me smile if it was not reflecting a tragedy....

anton_stepichev
31 posts04-15-2021 10:51am
@phasemonger
“This paper approaches auditory analysis from the standpoint of sound production. It argues that although air vibration produces sound, sound is not air vibration; and that exploitation of features of air vibration can hardly (if ever) lead to accurate understanding of the principle of the auditory mechanism in speech or music perception.”

phrasemonger, thank you for the information!Here is a direct link to the article - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267327268_The_Body-Image_Theory_of_Sound_An_Ecological_Appr...

So scientists don’t understand what sound is, just as they don’t understand what electricity is. This obviously follows from this article. Those who are sure that everything can be measured, and everything immeasurable is just snake oil should read the article carefully.
Thanks to anton_stepichev and to phasemonger...

I just ordered the book about sounds hearing... I am also interested by linguistic and phonology ....Then two birds with one stone...The author of this article wrote also about speech perception of tone in the yoruba language... Speech perception and musical perception are linked by evolution.... It will be interesting reads....I like books perhaps  more than music.....It was my work to advise how to read....

I will read it waiting prof answers to my posts..... 😁😊

But it is more easy to attack cables customers here they are easy targets, than reply to sound arguments....

In psychoacoustic science "measurement explain all" make no sense....I even doubt that he understand that....

Audio experience is for us a psychoacoustic phenomena and experience and experiment first and last,  and is not MAINLY an electrical design property easy to deduce from dials readings with some measuring apparatus...

Then distrusting hearing ability to learn in a set of audio listenings  experiments and promoting instead  blind test is ridiculous like it is ridiculous  to buy a "tweaks" because his marketing publicity advocate quantum effects....

Stupidity has many faces....But many see it with only one face.... It is the Bible straw and beam story.....




...this speaks to a conundrum that I never see answered once people start resorting to the "things that can’t be measured" defense of tweak products and other gear.
You just distorted here the fundamental audio problem which is related to psychoacoustic....

It is not that they are things that cannot be measured .... it is the fact that in psychoacoustic the CORRELATION PROCESS between measures parameters and listening experiments cannot be replaced by ONLY MEASURES...The correlation process between measures and listening is an ONGOING process... This is called science....


Are you able to think?


You can’t have it both ways: claim to identify a technical problem by appeal to measurable phenomena, claim to solve the problem, but then have people throw up their hands on demands for measurements "hey, this stuff can’t be measured!"
You just have reduced here for the benefit of your own warring agenda against " ignorant audiophiles" the complex psychoacoustical chain of events and experiments to a false alternative...

Audio experience must be correlated to measuring process BUT CANNOT be reduced to it....

Quit binary propaganda and think....

IT is ridiculous to be against measurements and ridiculous to claim that audio experience and experiments must be and can be reducible to ONLY measurements...Listening experiments are ESSENTIAL ALSO....


PSYCHOACOUSTIC is the main science in audio ......Awake yourself before pretending awaking others...



And if you’ve ever been involved in blind testing






You blind test idea is completely ridiculous the way you wanted to use it in your audio agenda...

I lived through many hundreds incremental changes in my 2 years full time installation of embeddings controls, in the mechanical electrical and especially acoustical dimensions...


You want to reduce any claim of improvement to a singular borderline change that you could debunk one at a time?

Sorry but i dont needed your blind test fallacy in my audio journey...

Like i already said blind test is a serious STATISTICAL methodology in science not a tool for the disciple of the James Randy sunday club...



There are 2 falsehoods i see percolating in the audio industry...

---One is a sin by OMISSION by the electronic design marketing companies when they suggest: buy our own electronic design and your audiophile experience is assured and warrented...

This is half truth nevermind the real S.Q. value of the product because audiophile experience is ALSO mostly tributary of the controls of many psycho acoustical factors outside the scope of the electronic design of any piece of electronic gear speakers included....

---The other sin is by FALSIFICATION of science by abuse of some aspect of technology... Some tried to convince people that audiophile experience is reducible ONCE AND FOR ALL to the measures of some known chosen parameters... This is completely false because audiophile experience is generally tributary of many psychoacoustical factors outside of the scope of these selected chosen parameters...





I know what i speak about i designed my own listening experiments for 2 years without buying any upgrades nor any tweaks but using peanuts cost materials and products to act on some aspect of these complex psychoacoustical factors...With complete success...I even devised on psychoacoustic principle my own mechanical equalizer inspired by Helmholtz...Peanuts costs....




Psychoacoustic is a science the most important one for audio...

Dr. Floyd Toole noted:

Technical measurements are demonstrably precise, repeatable events. Hearing perception is not. Obviously, the perceived event is definitive – if it does not sound good, it isn’t good. The task is to correlate what we measure with what we perceive – This is psychoacoustics.



I will add that generally this CORRELATION PROCESS cannot be abolished by a once and for all set of measures in engineering because it will be the erasing of psychoacoustical science itself.....Is it not saimple to understand especially for a "prof" ?


😁😊




I will let speak 2 acousticians for me here:

« Since the primary purpose of our music and movie systems is our own entertainment in accurately reproducing the “real” event, ultimately it is our perceptions that become our point of reference. Accuracy is thus defined by our perception of the reproduction of the event, and a microphone can’t tell us that. Sure, the microphone has it’s uses; measuring a room’s response can help integrate and optimize the low-frequency response, at least to a point. While the quality of the low-frequency response is certainly important to our perception of accuracy, it is not all that matters. These measurements will not tell us anything about how the speakers present the soundstage. We will have no clues toward the spaciousness of the soundscape. Capturing that information would require far more sophisticated measurements and a lot more knowledge than the average consumer has access to. In fact, when Dr. Floyd Toole reviewed this article, he summed up the issue with typical consumer room measurements, which use a single Omni-directional microphone and an FFT analyzer as “dumb” relative to human hearing. It lacks the sophisticated signal processing to detect sound and provide us with information that our ears can quickly accommodate. The purpose of this article is not to be damning of measurements, because they have their place, and they can be fun and helpful. However, there is also no denying that there has become an over-reliance on the perceived objectivity of measurements and a diminished reliance on what our own ears tell us about the accuracy of our system. This shift is to the detriment of good sound. Many consumers would be far better served spending time training their ears as to what good sound is. Learning to hear what different room reverberation times sound like, what specific changes in tone sound like, or experiencing the “real” event first hand. How can we know what a trumpet is supposed to sound like if we have never heard one live and unaided by electronic amplification? The key takeaway here should be that a flat in-room response is not a guarantee of good sound; this is not necessarily a desirable trait, and if this is achieved based solely on in-room measurements without regard for many other important factors in good sound reproduction, is more likely to lead to a bad sounding system.»

https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/accurate-microphone-or-ears




 A final remark about the reason why some people insult you here:

Some are tired of your arrogant pretense and the way you treat adults here like children....
I myself propose arguments not insults  and i will wait for answers...

But to this day save for youre own appropriation of science authority i dont see any serious thinking....Your agenda is classical skeptic sunday class for children....You divided falsely the crowds here in 2 gangs: subjectivist ignorant audiophiles and yourself, enlightened "objectivist" spirits....

This fabricated division has nothing to do with science nor with sound thinking and common sense....
Are you open minded to measurements being used to determine if a product "works" or not? Even if you think you hear it working?
Your logic is so simplistic....

In audio like in acoustic for example, the point about measures of different parameters is ALWAYS their possible CORRELATION with human perception...It is a complex dialogue between them, a constant round trip between the 2....

Using measures in a direct and gross way to discredit human perception is not science it is crusader skeptic ideology....Pseudo science...

You are like the astrologer charlatan that claim that the planet decide for the people....For you some set of measures replace completely human free perceptive experience and decide his fate once and for all... You are like the astrologer you crusade against my friend.... Like all fanatics of opposite side ressemble each other....



You agenda is childish and you treat all people here like gullible childs...Your pseudo is well choosen "prof"....

You cannot ALWAYS use measurement to prove in a so direct manner that a product work or not...For some product measures are crux of the matter, for example in electronic design... But equating measurable parameters in audio with good sound experience is not ALWAYS possible... It is only common sense...All designer use also their ears....This is called a CORRELATION between the ears and the designed artefact...

If you are a scientist i am elf....

You are a techno fad closed mind....





By the way i never bought "tweaks" nor costly cables and i have no horses in this almost useless thread contest....I never advise people to buy anything only to be creative....

The war between "subjectivist" and "objectivist" in audio has his basis on a complete misunderstanding and misuse of science....

The reason is very simple: audio science is founded on a continuous experimental CORRELATION between some choosen objective parameters and human perception, and NOT on the replacement of human perception by some physical parameters once and for all....






@mahgisterI think you answered your own question in the same post.
I Apologize.... 🧐

Sometimes i speak to myself more than i think....
Wires matter and sound different...

But wires are NOTHING in upgrading power compared to acoustic controls...Myself i bought basic good wires and forget them after that....

I dont understand the obsession about cables... Especially costly one...
I will repeat something i wrote already but which is very important to understand....

That will explain why i am not very interested by the products of one of the side nor by the pseudo debunking claim of the other side...

For their personal feud i am not interested by inquiring i am not a judge...




There are 2 falsehoods i see percolating in the audio industry...

---One is a sin by OMISSION by the electronic design marketing companies when they suggest: buy our own electronic design and your audiophile experience is assured and warrented...

This is half truth at best nevermind the real S.Q. value of the product because audiophile experience is ALSO mostly tributary of the controls of many psycho acoustical factors outside the scope of the electronic design of any piece of electronic gear speakers included....

---The other sin is by FALSIFICATION of science by abuse of some aspect of technology... Some tried to convince people that audiophile experience is reducible ONCE AND FOR ALL to the measures of some known chosen electrical parameters... This is completely false because audiophile experience is generally tributary of many psychoacoustical factors outside of the scope of these selected chosen parameters...The EARS are a measuring apparatus and the most important one, negating this is not only blindness but pure stupidity and plain ignorance...



Then i dont need Gene nor Ted...

😁😊

By the way i know first hand that mechanical acoustic controls exceed anything in upgrading power.... We listen to speakers/room at last...And i can replicate the audible effects of many costly "tweaks" anyway....

For those hypnotized by pricing, i never listen to anything that moves me enough to trash my 500 bucks system correctly embedded.... Than forget price, think about mechanical, electrical ands especially acoustical embeddings... Trust yourself....

If you want to know if your room is good, listen to The Three penny opera 1958 by Kurt Weill with Lotte Lenya and if you could listen the orchestra playing in front of you, seating in front of your speakers, but the singers voices coming from your back wall where there is no speakers, your room is under acoustic controls....If not, buying a cable AT ANY PRICE will not give you this nor buying most tweaks or a costly dac or amplifier.... Acoustic is key....

I will not speak about voice timbre or instrumental timbre which sound unnatural even in very costly systems or very tweaked one i listen to...

Forget price think acoustic....

And - anybody who thinks machine measurements are the only factors in acoustics and psychoacoustics fails to understand that in addition to the system itself and the measuring tools, there are at least five senses, a brain, and a consciousness involved.
Right on the center spot....

Thanks...