Streamer/Server to replace Innuos Zenith
@antigrunge2 When I had my Zenith Mk3 and when it was able to run as my Roon Core in experimental mode, I wholeheartedly agree! Squeezlite sounded clearly better to me than just Roon. But I could never get iPeng to work. So I never really used it. But then with crashes and hanging it became impossible to run my Zenith Mk3 in experimental mode. So I had to ditch Squeezlite. That was too bad. But that was part of led me to do a pandemic DIY experiment and build a NUC to run ROCK. It has been so good, so much more reliable, better Roon remote and DSP performance and with better SQ for *me and my system* I never looked back. I think another part of what makes my current system better is the separation of the server from the streamer. Roon 1.8 has been very good. I am very pleased. Thanks. |
Innuos are quite clear that they use lower powered chips to achieve lesser noise interference and better sound quality. Obviously that will run counter Roon‘s processor-heavy design including DSP. The fact of the matter though is that Innuos Squeezebox implementation using IPeng or InnuOS 2.0 sounds better than Roon driven by their own Nucleus+ So those married to Roon have to account for the above. |
A few weeks back I logged a ticket with Innuos about anomalies with Tidal integration. I’d been seeing inconsistencies with playlists, favorites, missing tracks and other unusual behavior. I got an email from Nuno at Innuos saying issues similar to the ones I reported have been fixed in 2.0.6. I updated my Zenith mk3 a couple days ago and am happy to report that fixes have in fact been made. Seems like there are some improvements with server connectivity as well? The connection seems to be more persistent and reconnects are faster. Still a long way to go to get to Roon functionality, but good on them for the updates and progress; very encouraging. |
I did try a Roon Nucleus, Apple Mac mini, Nuc and the Zenith just walked all over them in terms of sound quality. Now that is based on what sonic attributes are important to me. I value tone and a sense of ease to the music. I am not a huge detail or dynamic impact freak. Honestly, it was not even close to my ears. But, none of this matters if the Innuos is not working for you. I have had no issues in my home, but you are and I would also be frustrated. I take care on building a noise free digital front end with Network Acoustic cables, filters, English Electric switches and several linear power supplies. |
I want to clarify my prior comments about Innuos: 1. I want to also confirm that in my journey with Innuos that their tech support people were responsive and detail oriented. I have no issues with Innuos support. 2. My motivation was in helping others. I went to AXPONA and spent time in the Innuos room. I spoke with the reps and listened to the Zen, Zenith and Statement with headphones in their setup there. The reps explained to me that they use these (under powered) chips in the Zenith to reduce EMI. It was all about sound quality. But when I bought a Zenith Mk3 I also bought a lifetime Roon subscription. I love Roon and I think in my system and room the SQ is great. I used the Zenith as my Roon Core. BUT with the Zenith Roon remote was crashing frequently. Tracks would skip on their own from one to the next to the next. I could not use Squeezlite. When it did play it sounded great. But that is when it DID play. This was not a trouble free experience. That is why I did my experiment with the miniPC and parts I bought at Amazon to make a NUC-like Roon Core Server. I wanted to see what would happen if I had a faster processor in a fanless case separated from a streamer and how that would sound. Well I found that the SQ with the miniPC Roon server was great. Maybe better than the Zenith. My streamers were an UltraRendu and a Lumin U1 Mini. BUT the reliability, no crashing and ability to DSP without the unit skipping tracks was off the charts great blowing away the Zenith. Not even close. This lead me to believe that the Innuos sales reps fed me a bunch of bull. I was played. Ripped off. They don’t use the underpowered processor because it’s quieter. It may be quieter. I don’t know. But the REAL reason to me is that those parts are CHEAP! Roon won’t even certify the Zenith! So I am shouting from the proverbial rooftops to all Zenith owners to just try this experiment and see for yourself. You may be surprised like I was as to how good the miniPC Roon Core server sounds and how much better it performs with Roon and Roon remote. You do it and don’t like it? Dismantle it and send the parts back to Amazon for a refund. You like it? Congratulations. You can sell your Innuos gear and buy the other truly great component that delivers on it promises. Which leads me to MY conclusion based on MY experiences, that Innuos is hype and not worth the money. You can accomplish what it should be doing with less expensive gear. Often in our hobby we find that you do get what you pay for when you buy gear. In MY case my experience with Innuos I have found that to NOT be the case. This is not the norm. Again normally we do get what we pay for. I just want my fellow audiophiles to know my experience with Innuos and see if it matches up with their impressions. Alternatively, if they aren’t married to their Innuos gear they should know that there is a less expensive but perhaps better alternative. If you have Innuos gear and you like it and it performs well for you then congratulations. My offer experience has been different and want my colleagues here to know about it hoping that it was helpful. I am not evangelizing. Good luck to all. I have stated my case and am done with this unless someone asks me a question directly. Thanks. |
I have Zenith Mk 3 and I second that advice of trying before you spend money. I'd also not make decisions based on what anybody says in a orum (which I guess is also part of Doughthebiker's message). It certainly seems called for when reading this thread and some other comments I've seen about Innuos. I am very suspect of the some of these comments, but I'll do my best to believe they aren't motivated by anything other than trying to help a fellow audiophile. I will say this. My Innuos server works fine. No problems, although I had a bunch of questions and also issues with not the primary listening room but with my wife's listening room where she was running KEFs as a remote ready device. I sought help from Innuos and they were helpful. The problem was not the Innuos but my network. But I don't like to hear how people put down Innuos server because quite frankly they were always timely in answering my emails and always willing to set up an online conference, and also check out the performance of the network. They weren't done with me once I purchased their unit. They actually wanted to make certain where the issues were and make sure they got fixed. Another suspect comment I've come across is the insinuation that Roon 1.8 is the better sounding player. I don't know people reach this conclusion, but that has not been my experience. Roon 1.8 may offer features that are not yet incorporated into Innu0Sense 2.06, but it in my brief experience, Roon does not outperform the Innuos software. I think you will find many people substantiating this, not just me. Quite a few actually from an overwhelming majority of comments in various forums. But, pleas don't depend upon forums. By all means check out the advice you come across, as forums are very useful on that score. Just don't rely on what only what you read. That's pretty risky business. People don't consider the entire system, their rooms, their source material, the engineering quality, the fact that people hear differently (the hearing of listeners being different)' not to mention that people listen in different ways and have different ways of scoring the sound in the room. Very little here is objective, and mostly its very selective. I certainly would be careful judging a server solely on the basis of Tidal streaming over the etherne and into one's DAC, amps and wildly different listening rooms. People say such and such sounds better than such and such. There's a lot of that going on. A grain of salt is called for, and most often, a whole whole handful. |
I interact via Andriod tablet and am experiencing the same frustration. Was previously running Roon core on my Zenith and it was functionally rock solid and of course the Roon interface is pretty sweet. I stream from Tidal and the current implementation leaves much to be desired. Even with this I am not ready to pull the chute just yet. I'm going to practice patience at least in the short term in hopes that Innuos get their act together. |
I too had similar frustrations with my Innous Zen and purchased an Auralic Altair. Since I'm primarily an Analog guy I didn't stress too much about trying to surpass the performance of the Zen which I really liked. I enjoy the Auralic as much or better and the Lightning DS software sounds wonderful to boot. |
I would keep your Innuos Zenith mk.3 and just use Roon for now instead of the Sense app. Give Innuos more time to work out the bugs with their new app. I have the Innuos Zenith mk.3 and have no issue with the Sense app. The Zenith is a great streamer and the sound quality is better with using the Sense app compared to Roon. |
Love my Innuos Zenith with the new Sense software. I have no issues and the sound is great. The new Roon 1.8 also sounds good on the Zenith. I find Roon 1.8 now sounds better than the previous version and really on par with Sense now. Two good options. Not sure why you are having so many issues? Strange how it works great for some and not for others. I did not use the Sense remote app however. I just went to “my Innuos” to run Sense. Run DSP with no issues in the past. Love to better understand why the diverging realities? The Evo432 sounds interesting. Expensive however. I had both the Phoenix and Ideon top level reclocker with the Zenith 3, but in the end found they did not offer enough SQ improvement to keep them after purchasing my Mojo Audio Evo dac. The Mojo did not seem to need the external reclocker. |
This is so open and so many option exist it is tough to offer a firm direction. What you do really depends on the DAC or whether you go DAC only (Chord), DAC & Renderer (Bricasti) or DAC & Streamer (Naim) First question is are you happy with the Qutest? It you are, I would get a Roon Nucleus. It is appropriate in terms of quality for pairing with that DAC and it will give you a nice step up in terms of performance. No need to go with the Nucleus+ unless you have a massive (100K+ tracks) local library. Connect via USB. If you want to upgrade both, the question is far harder. You mention above you like Bricasti. Bricasti DACs with the network card are awesome and pairing with server is very appropriate. I would pair an M3 with an Antipodes S40. I would pair the M1 with S40 or K40 depending on your local library and rest of system. M21 definitely a K40. Alternatively, if you went with Rockna, I would take a different approach. Best results come when thinking holistically. |
@dfurry, I like your streaming system setup. Presently I’m just using a $20 L-Com Ethernet cable going from my router to my D-Link network switch. But I’ve got a Network Acoustics streaming cable going from the D-Link switch to an ENO Ethernet filter and from there to my ROON Nucleus, which I really love. Is there any need for an upgraded Ethernet cable leaving my router going to my network switch, as Rob Osborne from Network Acoustics told me it wasn’t, or isn’t one really necessary? What has been your experience? Thanks. |
What most people don’t realize with a high quality dac-streamer combination you eliminate the need for a dedicated server ,a little computer with a SS driver is optimum for have a modular design like the Bricasti it is very honest to the musical signal and used in many recording studios for what it brings to the table , land isolation from noise and 2 less cables in needing a separate streamer , If using Roon and QObuz which sonicly i feel better then no HD needed , tidal MQA is just a $$ per license and not even lossless .that is another story . I don5 have MQA Bricasti thought a waste of $$ ,The key cable is from the Ethernet switch which I prefer Uptone audio Ether regen to my M3 dac-streamer and cables do make a difference the Wireworld Platinum Eclipse 8 is a Fantastic Ethernet cable and the best I have tried several up to $1k retail $850 for a 1 m which is minimum length to buy ,and you can find for 20% off . With the Bricasti everything regarding low noise ,filtering, and pre,post voltage regulation is very well thought out ,and on their upper lever M1-,M21 dacs are R2R, as well as use dual AD1955 Multibit dacs , dual differential modules on all even on DSD and excellent Analog preamp section if you choose to implement it and all use separate linear power supplies.either 2 or 3 . https://www.bricasti.com/en/consumer/home.php |
I’ve been using a Melco N100 and couldn’t be happier, controlling with the MConnect app. I wanted to add AirPlay and Chromecast capabilities so I added a Cambridge Audio CXN streamer. It also has enhanced Internet Radio. It also works quite well with the Cambridge app and into the same DAC almost sounds as good as the Melco. The Melco and the CA together cost about 75% of the Innous |
My Roon/Qobuz based digital front end has separate processors for server, end point and DAC and it's stable. Right or wrong I credit the stability to processing headroom and AuraLic sfw/hdw integration. I also suspect AuraLic's integration is the most critical link when it comes to stability, my Aries has not been power cycled since its last Lightning DS upgrade and it's still playing well with others. I do have to keep an eye on Roon upgrades because they tend to introduce undocumented features (bugs) but beyond this I have good stability. I also balance DSP across the Nucleus and Aries to avoid saturating the processing capacity of either device. Silent Angle N16 Switch Roon Server -> Roon Nucleus+ Roon End Point -> AuraLic Aries G2.1 DAC -> Holoaudio May KTE Paul Hynes SR4T and SR7T LPS Network Acoustics Eth cables, Filters and USB III cable PC's FP-TCS21/IeGo 8095 and Oyaide Tsunami/Furutech FI48 NCFR |
@jmphotography, when I really started getting heavily into streaming music when the pandemic hit almost a couple of years ago, I was looking for the simplest plug and play solution that also sounded great, where the updates were automatic, and one where I could just pick up either my iPad or iPhone and start listening to music without any fuss or delays. At that time I too was using a Qutest as my DAC, which I fed using my MacBook Pro as my ROON core via a AudioQuest Diamond USB cable. When I asked my audio gear dealer if I should get my laptop out of my listening chain he emphatically said “Yes, do it right away”. So I looked around his store where he’s got several hundred thousands of dollars of high-end gear for his customers to demo, and I asked him what did he use for a dedicated streamer/music server? He pointed to a ROON Nucleus and said, “We use these because they’re foolproof and they sound great”. I ordered one that day and I’ve been happy ever since. Here’s a link to a comparison of the ROON Nucleus and the Innous Zen Mini Mk III. https://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2020/07/04/roon-nucleus-review-as-a-streamer-vs-innuos-zen-mini-mkiii... Since then I’ve traded my Qutest for a Chord Hugo M Scaler and TT2 DAC, and I’ve added a network switch and an Ethernet filter between my router and the Nucleus which has made everything sound simply sublime. One upgrade that I did with the ROON Nucleus, as I’ve also done with both M Scaler and my TT2, was to put power it with an Sbooster LPS(linear power supply). Never underestimate the importance of having clean power feeding your system. This link to Moon Audio is great because it goes over everything you’ll need to know about the ROON Nucleus. https://www.moon-audio.com/roon-nucleus-faq/ |
Rockna Wavedream NET. Not that popular of a server due to lack of proper marketing and manufacturer not trying to expand production numbers, but it did beat my Aurender N10 which is now gone since a year. I actually got their dac first Wavedream signature, then got the streamer. I was shocked of the server performance and i believe its even a better value than their dac! As a bonus, its doubles as a great CD player (totally isolated from server section- for ripping you have to attach an external CD drive) |
I researched Music servers for a year on Audiogon and What's Best Forum before deciding on one. I ended up purchasing a Lucas Audio LDMS out of the UK. Lucas is a computer genius and his customer service is literally 24/7. My DAC is a Lampizator Pacific. The LMDS just elevated my system by a large margin. Let me give you an example of his service. I sent him an email at 6;30pm Arizona time. I got an email back saying can we What's Ap. It had to be 3 am in the UK. He spent the next hour going through my system to make sure everything was working as it was supposed to. I felt bad and kept telling him it could wait until his morning. In the end, there was nothing wrong with his server; it was my router. The LMDS provided me more clarity, soundstage, and detail that I never knew I was missing. If nothing else, send Lucas an email or look up his website. You will never get this kind of service from Innuous or Taiko. In fact, I would love to see a shootout between Taiko and LDMS. Music servers range from $5k to whatever you want to spend. I have 8TB of music on my server in addition to Tidal and Qobuz in a Roon ready application. |
I can highly recommend the Antipodes range. I have the entry level S30 which is USB out only and still very good. The further up the range you go the more output choices you get.Roon etc is built in so it's all pretty much plug and play after you load your music Their video tutorials are great and the support service is second to none.Good luck with your search. |
@jmphotography if you are using your Zenith Mk3 as your Roon core server, this will be pertinent: I am a former user and owner of an Innuos Zenith Mk3 and PhoenixUSB. During the winter 2020 pandemic as a DIY project and experiment and after I watched the John Darko YouTube video on how to build a NUC for your Roon core, I decided to build a miniPC to serve as a Roon Core server and see what happened and how it compares to the Zenith Mk3. I was using my Zenith Mk3 as my Roon core server. Roon remote was crashing all the time. I could not do any DSP in Roon without crashing. SQ when the thing was operating was good. I built an Azulle Inspire i5 mini pc (which is like an Intel NUC) and installed 32GB RAM and a 256 GB M.2 SSD. These are beyond the specs of the Zenith Mk3 and Roon’s specs. As a streamer I used a Sonore UltraRendu. The combination of the miniPC and the Sonore produced better SQ, more stable Roon Remote functionality with no crashing and no problems with DSP. I also used the miniPC with a Lumin U1 Mini. Same thing. The Azulle was fanless. So it made no noise. I Etherneted it into my SOtM switch in my listening room. I have since built and sold a few of these Azulle miniPC to colleagues on usaudiomart and they are beyond happy. I sold the one I made for myself and built an even better miniPC for myself. I built an Intel NUC10 (10th Gen) i7 with 32GB RAM and 256 GB M.2 SSD and placed it in an Akasa Turing fanless case. It is powered by an LPS though likely the LPS is not needed. Again I am using the LUMIN U1 Mini with the SBooster mod and using an SBooster LPS. The SQ is terrific. Roon Remote runs perfect. DSP is great. I sold my Zenith Mk3 and PhoenixUSB which saved me thousands. It is my belief based on my real world comparisons and experience per above that Innuos’s assertion that they use low spec components is a bunch of bull. They do it because it is cheap. This may also be why Roon doesn’t fully support Innuos. Innuos’ gear in my opinion is overhyped and not worth the money. Others here may disagree. But based on my actual experience, this is my conclusion. Do yourself a favor. Built a NUC Roon server. It’s easy. Use a separate streamer and try it out for yourself. If you like it, you just saved yourself thousands of $. If not, return all the components to Amazon. Easy. |
The problem might lie with your modem and any firewall it uses. I had the same problem with my Elac Discovery and the Roon Essentials app. Elac suggested a workaround which seems to work so far. You need a switch box and an Access Point. Using ethernet cable connect the Router to the switch box and then both your Server and Access Point to the switch box again with ethernet cable. |
jmphotography: I'm sorry to hear about your iOS/macOS problems. I'm using an iPad to run Innuos Sense, and I can access my.innuos via a MacBook Air when necessary. However, I use Innuos Sense exclusively to run my music player, and it has been working extremely well. The only time I have had a problem was when I initially tried to use the my.innuos screen on my MacBook as a way to control my music player (since it looks a lot like the Innuos Sense screen on my iPad). As long as I access music files through the iPad only, things have been fine. I have no idea if anything I've mentioned has anything to do with your Innuos issues, but I thought I'd describe my experience in case it is helpful. The other issue I wondered about is whether you might be having any system network problems, especially with intermittent wi-fi. You've probably already covered the basics in your troubleshooting efforts, though, so my thoughts may not be helpful. I don't use Roon, but based on the comments of other Innuos/Roon users, the new Innuos software should provide better overall sound quality than Roon does. To get better sound quality than your Zenith is likely to require a greater financial investment. |
I will also recommend looking a Wolf Audio. I use an Wolf Alpha 3SX with Roon. It operates as my streamer and server so nothing additional required. There are a few possible options between their Luna R and top of the line Red Wolf that could fit what you are looking for. Ethernet into the Wolf and USB out to my Gryphon. Customer service is also top notch and very accessible. |
A great dac -Streamer combination and 3 models to choose from with trickle down technologies starting with the Bricasti M3 it is very advanced And using the Classic dual Multibit Analog Devices 1955 dacs, all linear power supplies ,multi level filtering and regulation fully modular for future technologies And many other advancements they use in recording studios around the world ,I bought what they call entry level ,it is a true high end bargain ,music taken from your computer or server is fully isolated running Ethernet cable and all information digitally is not unpacked until in the streamer . Just checkout the reviews then have a listen . |
Hi jmphotography,
I would recommend demoi’ng the 432 EVO AEON server which I just upgraded to (from Innuos Zen MK3):
What really tipped the scales for me were the following factors:
The rest is history. I am expecting my AEON unit to be delivered very soon (each unit is custom/purpose built). My humble advice is to demo this unit and find out for yourself.
Cheers!
|
I am happy with my Small Green Computer (SGC) Sonictransporter i5 and MicroRendu streamer. This bundle has the UltraRendu. https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/recommended-solutions/products/premier-server-player-combo-sonictransporter-i5-ultrarendu-7v-linear-power-supply?variant=12400215719970 The Sonictransporter is like the Roon Nucleus+ (my other suggestion) for less money. I plug an external ripping drive in to rip CDs; the ripper doesn’t need to be built in. I have a 2TB internal SSD for storage. The Wyred4Sound server is the other one I considered. Darko gave it a good review. https://wyred4sound.com/products/music-servers/ms Both are ROON servers. I’m committed to Roon. Aurenders get good reviews, as so others, but they run their own apps (ie, Conductor, for Aurender) and they are not Roon. The Wyred would probably go in your rack (and does have more connection options, like I2S), but the SonicT doesn’t need to. I have it placed near my modem/router across the room, and run an ethernet to my DAC, and the Rendu takes the ethernet signal and feeds it to the DAC, https://positive-feedback.com/industry-news/sonore-microrendu-version-1-5/ Darko review of the previous gen Rendu: https://darko.audio/2017/01/classy-sonores-microrendu-takes-digital-audio-higher/ |
Wolf Audio servers are reputed to be very good and worth a look, but you’d still need a streamer that I’d defer to the recommendations above. I will say it seems odd that you’re having such an issue with the Zenith. Have you checked the quality of your internet service or spoken to Innuos about the problem? This seems like it should be fixable somehow. Anyway, best of luck. |
You might want to talk to Benjamin from Mojo Audio about his Deja Vu Server. I ordered a refurbished used model with the latest JCAT USB and Ethernet cards, which I hope to receive in the next couple of weeks. He has a 45 full refund policy so you lose nothing by trying (except shipping). I look forward to seeing how it compares with the Innuos Zen MkIII that I am currently using. I was very impressed with the improvement in sound quality of the Zen after upgrading to Innuos 2.0.5 (didn't know about 2.0.6). Of course the Deja Vu with the JCAT upgrades is considerably more expensive than the Zen and Zenith. You will certainly have a very interesting conversation if you call him and he is very responsive. |
Thank you. I am using a Chord Qutest as my current DAC. @antigrunge2 I get a lot of times where the app and the web browser version (Mac Safari) both stop communicating with the server. My iPad is brand new with the latest iOS. I updated to the latest Innuos 2.0.6 and updated the Sense app yesterday and seems to have gotten worse. Just tired of all the hassle and waiting for the changes. Music is not fun anymore when I listen on the Innuos, just frustrating. |
