Started with $1k speakers … what now?

If you're going on the audiophile journey, you need to buy a used pair of Magnepans and a muscular amp. You could do that with 5k. 

at this point you have to go to two or three other HiFi stores and listen.

if you ask people online and start talking to Us in the peanut gallery you won’t be successful since many “experts” here are not experts or will recommend things you like. The best dealer I found is GTT Audio.

Give them a call with some real budgets with some real money.

most speakers under $10,000 aren’t made very well. There is just not enough budget in something that costs 500-1000 to make to really sound good. And if they cost 500-1000 to make they are $2500-5000 retail price. If you want to go cheap get magnepan .7 and buy real subs from REL and get S510’s! The T5-T9 rel’s are made in china and for home theater more than 2 channel.

Welcome to the jungle.  

@ltmandella ProAcs are also on my audition list. For what it’s worth, I’ve read from one online retailer that they mate well with the Artera.

@jdavis234 I had a budget to spend up to $10k on monitors for my small office, 12 x 11 x 9 (I use my closet to stuff my desk and 6 monitors so another 4 feet). I use a SilentPC so no noise from this setup.

I was thinking of the following monitors:

• Magico A1
• Yamaha NS3000
• Vivid Kaya S12
• KEF Reference 1
• TAD ME1

All very good to great and costly. However, the main thing to consider is the room. Experience with other speakers in this room told me that I would have difficulties getting any of those monitors to work perfectly in the small space (maybe not the Vivid).

I lucked out and tried the $1000 Magnepan LRS+. This speaker produces a huge wall of sound and disappears in my room. The room is acoustically treated and the LRS+ seems to play the nicest in this space. I think the sound is directed differently than the others I list. Maybe less reflections which can really mess up the sound in a small space.

I also use the KEF KC62 sub with the LRS+ and it works seamlessly. It sounds like 1 speaker.

Only issue with the LRS+ is that it is hard to drive. I found a perfect amp for it. A used Sanders Magtech ($4k with warranty from Sanders). A CODA #8 would also work nicely.

If you want baby steps the PeachTree GAN400 works rather well with it. It is about $1k and it does not complete with the Sanders but gets you about 80%. A great starter amp for the LRS+.

Another option for a small room is the KEF LS50 Meta + KEF KC62 sub. That does not have the massive sound of the LRS+, but it has its own charms and its a sleeper setup, I had it before. I would get this pairing over the KEF Reference 1 for a small room, no matter what experts say. The LS50 Meta can also be driven nicely by 100 watts, whereas the LRS+ needs a lot more juice.

Acoustic Reality

http://web.archive.org/web/20110902214134/http:/arhifi.dk/store/product.php?id_product=22

@lanx0003  This is the first time I've heard of AR (Acoustic Research?) having a hand in series crossovers.  What's your source for this statement?

@balooo2  Fritz discloses the crossover design because it is a well-known public domain property of AR, which has received various good and mixed reviews. These issues are known to DIYers, who either appreciate them or modify them to enhance the speakers' sound quality. However, it's unclear whether Fritz publishes any modifications or specific parameter settings on the parts. In essence, if Fritz retains the crossover design as proprietary information, even though it originates from the public domain, it is akin to what others do. This practice safeguards intellectual property, preventing DIYers from openly replicating or fabricating Fritz speakers. The intention is to protect proprietary knowledge, a common and understandable approach in the industry.

Regarding other speakers, I've expressed my trust in the reviewers' discerning ears and their almost perfect assessments of Fritz speakers. However, I do acknowledge the concerns raised by reviewers about the quantity and dynamics of the bass region in Fritz speakers. While I appreciate my Buchard S400 mk ii, I was genuinely surprised to learn that Fritz "easily beats Buchard or Dynaudio S40" in the high/mid regions. Personally, I have a preference for speakers with weighty and nimble bass. The inherent bass aspect of Fritz remains a reservation for me in making a purchase decision. It ultimately boils down to personal taste and, infortunately, there are no 'jack-of-all-trades' speakers as Dave rightly pointed out.

I hope your audition of the Fritz speakers goes well, and you find them to your liking. I understand the painstaking process of choosing the right speakers, so best of luck in making your decision.

Well your room is similar in size to my own. In that size room I would think your amp at 150wpc would drive the Pulsars fine. They are not as easy to drive as the Fritz however.

Can't possibly go wrong with Proac stand mounts.  Year after year, rave after rave from owners.

It's the kind of standmount that even were you to move in a huge theatre, you would not want to part with your proacs.

They do need current, not the most sensitive.  And you already have a sub.  I think you'd be stunned by how great they sound.  I sure was.  Talk about "musicians in the room with you!" they have it in spades...

@mesch  12x14x 9. Amp is Quad Artera + Pre. (150w/8ohm). I had a marantz and Schiit Vidar/Freya before and was not happy with them. I like this amp; I don’t hear coloration or grain like the others mentioned, it’s just a touch on the ‘smooth’ side of things, which is fine for me.

Sorry not @audioguy85 I meant @jdavis234 .   

I

@audioguy85 I don't believe you stated what amplification you use. You mentioned a small room, what is LXWxH? 

Would make a difference when choosing between Pulsars or Carbon7s.

@lanx0003 Your points are well taken however I’ve yet to come across the perfect audio componet in everyone’s eyes. I would ask you this...Can you recommend a speaker that cost less the the Carbon 7’s (new) that has superior componets, better build and a generous in home no questions asked trial as opposed to the carbon 7’s? The only reason folks are capable of picking apart the question of Fritz speakers value propostion is because he is completely transparent about exactly what is inside the box.To me its like going to a fine resturant looking at your menu choice and evaluating the cost of the ingredients that went into the meal with no other consideration. I feel completely comfortable stating 90% of the people reading this do not have a clue what crossover etc.componets are inside the speakers they own nor do they really care, either it sounds good in their system or it does not period. I’ve been shopping for a quite some time and Fritz has been simply at the top of my shortlist based on lots of feedback. When you personally communicate with several people who lived with a product give it a thumbs up without reserve what more do you want? I am not being facetios. I’m participating on this thread because I too am seeking a better pair of speakers for my system like the OP. Either they’ll work for me or they won’t. If you are aware of a superior product that is not diy for the same or lower cost (new) please share your find .

Thanks!

@lanx0003 : While both Nemo and Dave mentioned that the bass from the Carbon is tight and agile, focusing more on quality than quantity, some users have commented that the bass may not sound as dynamic. I’m not an expert on crossover design, but it seems there’s no free lunch after all.

I think this is an accurate comment. These are stand mounts that have made a conscious decision to have good bass with excellent midrange and highs that are clear without being super precise. These will lend themselves more to some kinds of music better than others -- there's no free lunch and this is not a "does everything speaker."

I find myself questioning why the overall price remains relatively high (forgive me for saying that). Perhaps I should not be misled by the unassuming appearance of Fritz and refrain from passing premature judgments on the cost.

I think there may be a couple of reasons for this:

1. Boutique, handmade product with home trial means a bit more $$. Then again, one is getting a better speaker than, say, a more mass produced speaker. E.g. the Dynaudio Special 40 lists at $3600, so the Carbon 7's really blow that out of the water.

2. The price may be more negotiable than, say, dealing with a store (not sure). Perhaps Fritz is leaving himself some room.

All that said, I suspect the speaker might sell better at a somewhat lower price-point, but I am not sure if Fritz sells enough of this to take that risk.

@hilde45 @balooo2 Thank you for sharing your review on Fritz. It’s a great review, and kudos to Dave. I carefully examined the AR series crossover used in the Carbon 7 SE Mk2. Now, I can better understand what Nemo means by ’less bass quantity,’ attributed to the design of the capless and serial connection of the resistor crossover. Because a portion of the current runs through the resistor instead of the woofer, the low ends are not as efficient, and the resistor tends to run hot. Additionally, the capless design puts more stress on the tweeter. While both Nemo and Dave mentioned that the bass from the Carbon is tight and agile, focusing more on quality than quantity, some users have commented that the bass may not sound as dynamic. I’m not an expert on crossover design, but it seems there’s no free lunch after all.

While I believe the components utilized in the de minimis, capless design crossover are of high quality, consisting of only three parts (1 resistor and 2 inductors) and given that the design is open source, I find myself questioning why the overall price remains relatively high (forgive me for saying that). Perhaps I should not be misled by the unassuming appearance of Fritz and refrain from passing premature judgments on the cost.

Have you run REW software on your room?  It’s free (although you need to buy a microphone off Amazon for cheap).

It will tell you a lot about your room and where you can spend money the most effectively.

hardest part is looking at the curve and going “”OK what now”?!  But there are 10,000 smart guys on the internet (and 29,000 really stupid ones) to help figure that it.

it will save you a lot of time, money, and false starts.

jdavis234 OP

8 posts

01-28-2024 at 10:06am 

@benanders A fair question, and thanks for your insight. The SF is a smaller front ported box and works closer to wall boundaries. The Polk has to be positioned out from the walls, at least in the space where I have them. So they served different purposes for me, and sonically I like the tone of the SF Lumina but also the impact and soundstage of the Polks, which can be a bit less exciting, overall, in my setup/space. The adage “buy cheap buy twice” isn’t lost on me, though; I honestly didn’t know a thing about speakers or placement then and felt 1k was a good starting point. So moving on from this, I’m looking for a speaker that is built to a higher level of performance, hoping that that 3-5k range new or used will get there and seeing some of the great suggestions, it seems that it will, regardless of room treatments or placement options, which are certainly their own important considerations. I really appreciate the suggestions for the Carbons and Joseph Audio, and others. These are products I wouldn’t have known about otherwise. I’ll be looking at a few.
 

@jdavis234 you’re welcome. Do consider speakers’ overall design/approach rather than just designer/model name - everything you’ve mentioned is pretty standard (the Joseph Audio’s do garner good comments and I’ll admit, they’re nice… at a price).

You haven’t mentioned considering actives or panels yet. If standmounts, panels seem an unlikely candidate but are worth hearing - they’re different. I’m not sure omnidirectional speakers are in your price range or would work for a small room, haven’t looked. They do neat (different) stuff too. If you only listen to more typical box-cone speakers, you’ll be limiting yourself to evaluating more nuanced differences in a “type”, so to speak. Start broader than that, and narrow down based on whether you discover a preference for transducer type. It can be a real thing.

Also consider speakers that are floorstanders but require only the on-floor real estate of a standmount. Reason being, if you don’t get carried away and aim to overpower your room, it’s worth comparing models with greater driver surface area. This reduces drivers’ legwork between each crossover range. It can have a considerable effect on your in-room sound. Beware paying more for exotic cabinetry whatever the size of your speakers.

KEF LS60 is past your price point, but a curious example of an active speaker that takes up the same floor real estate as a standmount and offers even greater individual driver control (being, of course, active). I don’t keep up with Genelec prices but they have a pretty hardcore niche following outside recording studios. Probably hard to find a “cleaner” small format speaker, but like anything, that’s to taste. And you kinda need a Star Wars-themed room for Genelec’s to blend in. Educate yourself on actives, panels, omni’s, whether or not they wind up being approaches you ultimately consider. 

With standmounts, you’ll do well to also educate yourself on how in-room bass can work since you may eventually want to implement 1+ sub(s). Probably worth a look:

Point taken however I disagree,no one has made mention of JBL or B&W or Martin Logan thus far in this thread as something the OP should seek out new or used.

I just don't think the number we find in the used market is an indicator of value one way or another unless we take into account volume vs. say JBL or B&W or Martin Logan. 

@erik_squires

"OMG, Fritz is such a small time operator, that there are no used Fritz speakers says nothing about the brand."

I would beg to differ for me it suggests owners tend to keep them because it is superior product. I just spoke with Fritz,he has been building speakers for 50 years and has built thousands of units, good luck finding someone willing to let go of them is what I’m experiencing. Aside from that we discussed the merits of the brand (including video review examples) at length earlier in this thread. Perhaps I misunderstood your comment?

MoFi Source Point 10

or 

Fyne F701 (with patience, will show up used at the upper end of your price range.

OMG, Fritz is such a small time operator, that there are no used Fritz speakers says nothing about the brand.

I don't know of another high end maker (and his speakers are!) that will let you audition, and work with you personally to find the right pair for you.  That's bespoke service.

Mahgister good point, learn this hobby and what you like, stop by audio store and listen as much you can with your system, or your friend system if they invite you.Before I SPEND MY HARD EARN money, I did accumulate knowledge putting system together and improved my listening skills.by learning you can save time and money.There are plenty of good speakers when you are ready.

I love the Fritz line. I find them exceedingly smooth and neutral from the midrange to the treble (possible exception the Be) with bass much larger than the speakers and amazing transparency and imaging for the price.

My one concern about them is that many will find them too mellow and laid back. for small rooms, Jazz, classical and choral they could be fantastic. With a sub also fantastic.

They do benefit from decent room acoustics.

Absolutely the best buy in high end for the money and size.

I don’t disagree with any of your points I become annoyed when folks suggest items WAY above the OP’s stated budget and folks that recommend products they have no first hand experince with. Seeking speakers with a 5K budget in mind would suggest there is disposable income in play and certainly not what I’d consider over the top in regards to what a really good pair of speakers could go for. Additionally I would not assume whether or not someone is well heeled based on these discussions. I’ve encountered plenty of folk that spend way beyond their means in any endeavor and some that may have second Lake houses and may only purchase if an item is used etc. Who am I to judge?  Sometimes there are items suggested that are so spot on that they are almost never availible on the used market. As is the case in my exchanges here, NO Fritz speakers are availible on the used market anywhere so what does that suggest?. No one is suggesting to the OP to rush out and do anything, all I’ve read thus far for the most part is exactly the input they are seeking, but at some point...you gotta get off zero.

There are a lot of well-off individuals posting here. Not to be critical, but simply more about how much financial risk one can take in their audio journey.

To me. it’s about Synergy, not $pending. That is not to say more dollars doesn’t get you less compromises, but rather the main lever to pull is the Integration of your components together, and your system into the room, which may involve $$ but involves many other aspects.

To drill in from a general audio opinion, I would say it’s fairly useless to choose speakers without a substantial audition in your room with your other components, your music, over an extended period that allows for real fatigue or sustained enjoyment. That’s not to say I walk into an audio store and don’t listen - sure I do...speakers have sufficient differences to be able to discern to some degree in non-contextual listening. It's a great way to knock out what you don't like!

But to really know, you just have to have them in your house. There are two primary ways I have seen to do this:

(1) Borrow from audio dealers or work with manufacturers/distributors that allow returns.

(2) Buy gently used gear at 50%-75% market value, already having lost the new speaker premium price, listen for 3-6 months, then keep, sell, or repurpose.

The latter is a slower, and to me more enjoyable process that is part of the whole thing - no reason to have to be in a hurry for any decision. I tend to keep several sets side by side, then one set goes to the lake house or as a trade-in at the audio dealer or back on Craigslist (only done CR as a seller a few times).

There is no audio endgame. Enjoy the journey. Don’t be in a hurry, it just costs more, and you miss half the attractions. Think of it like a fancy multicourse meal: everything keeps getting better, but you’re not in a hurry for the dessert.

Have you found A British Audiophile on Y/T? He has a smaller listening room than I do, where I use floor standers, he tends to focus on stand mount speakers. There are impressive speakers in that segment. Good luck with the hunt

@benanders A fair question, and thanks for your insight. The SF is a smaller front ported box and works closer to wall boundaries. The Polk has to be positioned out from the walls, at least in the space where I have them. So they served different purposes for me, and sonically I like the tone of the SF Lumina but also the impact and soundstage of the Polks, which can be a bit less exciting, overall, in my setup/space. The adage “buy cheap buy twice” isn’t lost on me, though; I honestly didn’t know a thing about speakers or placement then and felt 1k was a good starting point. So moving on from this, I’m looking for a speaker that is built to a higher level of performance, hoping that that 3-5k range new or used will get there and seeing some of the great suggestions, it seems that it will, regardless of room treatments or placement options, which are certainly their own important considerations. I really appreciate the suggestions for the Carbons and Joseph Audio, and others. These are products I wouldn’t have known about otherwise. I’ll be looking at a few.

@balooo2 Great to hear! Well done! Please report back about the Carbons.

Since I bought my tannoys, I've given little thought to upgrades....

@hilde45 10/4 regarding old girlfriends and cars from college days...rose colored memories for sure!  I spoke with Fritz last night for about 20 minutes what a friendly,helpful guy. I like his process we discussed my gear,room,taste etc. All that being said I'm pulling the trigger on a set of the Carbon 7's they will ship next week.            Thanks for the perspectives!

OP, @benanders recent post about identifying what sound you want is paramount, I think. Brand shopping is an endless chase, or can be.

@balooo2 I had the Salk SS6M for a while. I had both it and the Fritz simultaneously for many months. I kept the Salks because initially I loved the finish better and the clarity of the Be tweeter. But, in time, that Be tweeter could not be tamed and since I had sent the Fritz back by that point, I went with Ascend (RAAL) towers, eventually upgrading them to the ELX level. These are the speakers I have now. I like them a lot but still miss the Carbon 7 SE Mk. II's. I may get those Carbons to have as alternate speakers. There's a magic there which I have not heard in any other speaker. (Of course I feel that way about some girls I knew in college, so let's be honest about our memories, eh?)

@jdavis234 seems you didn’t start with $1K speakers but the challenging pattern of 2x $1K speaker pairs. Why two different models the same [not inexpensive] price? That’s rhetorical - it’s a question to ask yourself; none of my business. 
What do you want out of your listening - is that the point of entering this hobby for you? If so, how will you listen - sitting down in 1 chair in a non-multi-purpose room as is common in audiophilia? You mentioned guitar foot pedals so you’re no stranger to live venues…

What gets you happy in live performances - what elements or physical / tactile cues are most compelling/energizing? If you can answer that for yourself, then you can start to tease apart the challenges in your way for home audio best suited to your own tastes. Among others - space (too little / too much / room boundary shapes and composition); transducer format stereotypes [pun!] (do panels or cones do the 2 Ch. parlor tricks you favor… and what about tweeter formats, and crossover points…); media (are you gonna be a vinyl guy, or keep it high res digital - all mastered playback sources are woefully victims of dynamic compression compared to live music in a way no hifi kit can truly defeat within the bounds of a typical home)?

My advice is to be question-driven IF you prefer something more than a perpetual shop-a-thon from the stereo hobby. Educate yourself with real literature over off-the-cuff video reviews, based on your personal preferences in hearing. Virtual shopping advice from others could be great, but would mostly be by chance (their preferences from their experiences - not with your ears nor in your room). Hold respectfully suspect any advice that describes greatness / superiority of a product based on “pattern instead of process” (this really is the Achilles heel of so many ebullient suggestions online). Price is inherently indicative of nothing other than what you’ll pay from your bank account.
 

Learning the basics for how different types of drivers work and how wavefronts and room boundaries interact will make you more than someone who shops for clothing and matching accessories in the shape of audio products. So basically you have to ask yourself how you wound up with 2x $1K pairs of speakers (truly no judgement here - just running with an observation, mind you) and figure out if cycling through various kit over time will be part of the fun for you. For some folks it clearly is, and that’s fine as long as it’s not assumed to be a good route for everyone. If that is not you, then there are plenty of learning points to start with before searching up the best $5K proxy price tag. Letting cost lead you in this arena, as a few others suggested, can be an obstacle.

Hopefully that’s clearer than mud. 😉

IMO, your space is going to define what speakers are an upgrade.

I sit about seven feet in front and my speakers, Klipsch RP5000s are less than four feet apart. 

I would upgrade them if I didn't feel it would be a waste of money, since the space I have wouldn't let more expensive speakers 'breath.'

I would call my apartment 10x12 and I can't imagine spending a lot of cash on speakers so that I can hear the sound bounce off four walls, five if you include the low ceiling (thankfully I have acoustic on mine!)

Space is a limiting factor for me.

@kennyc

Standmounts.

@immatthewj , Yes, as of 2023/ 2024, guys like Andrew Jones, Danny Ritchie, etc have offered such insanely great sound at around the 1k price bracket that it takes a whole lot more of an exponential increase in price to beat such things (obtain a significant enough jump). 15, 20 years ago...yeah you got something worthwhile at 5k if you had something going on at 1k.

@deep_333  , it sounds as if you are saying that this is kind of inflation in reverse (at least when it comes to speakers)?

What I mean by that is:  20 years ago 1k sounded like more money than 1k sounds like today, but from what you have said, for 1k today, one would buy way more pewrformance than what one would have bought for 1k 20 years ago.

In my own case, going on about 30 years ago, I bought a pair of B&W 805 Matrix speakers that listed for $1600/pair. At the time, I thought I was spending a lot of money (I was just getting started in the audiophile game).  How much would I need to spend today to realize a significant upgrade in sonic performance over those older B&Ws?  Over the years I've upgraded everything (more than once) except for the sub and the speakers, and that was because I just always thought those B&Ws sounded great.  With that typed (and I am not saying this sarcastically) this was probably because I never knew any better.

Ascend Sierra EX v2 w/ RAAL tweeters. Go to hifishark, create an account and set an alert to receive an email for when they become available for sale on classified sites. You will not be disappointed.

If you've got the cash spring for the Sierra EX Tower v2 w/ RAAL tweeters.

For me, Andrew Jones new $3700 and $3000 speakers are way better than his or the OP’s $1000 speaker..

@jl35  , are you referring to the Sourcepoint speakers by Andrew Jones?

maybe 

@jdavis234 

are you looking for standmounts or floorstander speakers?

I found the Salk more full sounding and dynamic, and preferred the clarity of their high end...the models listed in the thread a few below mine, though I’ve recently owned the SongTowers and still own the Salk Monitors...the Fritz were being auditioned by a friend who chose the Salk...we do live close to the former factory...I believe of the earlier mentioned speakers the Salk are more expensive which while not guaranteeing superiority certainly gives the edge for talented veteran designers... I think also in some ways Salk reminds me of Fried  speakers , one of my earliest higher up speaker purchases

@jl35 Got it.  Out of curiosity and as I’ve very unfortunately never heard either, what were the material differences between them and what models did you compare?  To drill right down to it, what ultimately pushed you toward Salk over Fritz?  Thanks!

@jl35 Got it.  Out of curiosity and as I’ve very unfortunately never heard either, what were the material differences between them and what models did you compare?  Thanks!

Yes I have. I think both are terrific. But I’m a long standing Salk guy and I just prefer them. No argument with anyone who prefers the Fritz. 

For me, Andrew Jones new $3700 and $3000 speakers are way better than his or the OP’s $1000 speaker...and Salk definitely over the Fritz

@jl35 I hold both speakers in high regard, but that’s a pretty definitive statement. Have you compared Salk and Fritz speakers directly?

For me, Andrew Jones new $3700 and $3000 speakers are way better than his or the OP’s $1000 speaker...and Salk definitely over the Fritz, though I think Salk is retired from making new speakers...I currently have Salk Monitors and the floor standing Carina, both of which are great in a small room...so many great speakers now in these price ranges

Thanks everyone for such knowledgeable feedback, it’s extremely helpful. I feel a lot more confident now in the direction I should be headed and the things I should consider (or not) in this price range.

@immatthewj I see where deep is coming from in the sense that diy or used will provide more of an improvement than buying new. I’m not considering any diy projects, however. I have a couple very questionably soldered guitar pedals I’ve diy’d in the past.

@deep_333  , just to clarify (but not to start an argument) you are saying that if OP wants a significent sonic improvement over is current 1k speakers, he will have to spend more than 5k?

@immatthewj , Yes, as of 2023/ 2024, guys like Andrew Jones, Danny Ritchie, etc have offered such insanely great sound at around the 1k price bracket that it takes a whole lot more of an exponential increase in price to beat such things (obtain a significant enough jump). 15, 20 years ago...yeah you got something worthwhile at 5k if you had something going on at 1k.

@hilde45 Do you still own the Salks 6M SS? How do they compare to the Fritz carbon 7 SE MKII?  I am now considering a pair of the Fritz's for myself.