SPEAKERS THAT SOUND ALIVE & DYNAMIC AT LOW LISTENING LEVELS
Seeking speakers that sound alive and dynamic at 55 dbs with occasional peaks at 60 dbs. Headphones do not work for me. My ears were just tested and ENT advised my ears are normal for a 72 year old. He said that I have normal age related hearing loss. My ears are uncomfortable when I listen over 55 dbs. My current system is as follows:
Martin Logan11A impression loudspeakers with 2 SVS 4000 subs.
Bryston 4B3 Cubed power amp & Bryston BP-19 preamp.
Chord Qutest Dac-with LHY linear power supply.
Lumin U2 mini streamer with S Booster power supply.
Before I change speakers I plan to upgrade my DAC to Weiss 204 with Linear power supply, and then purchase Schitt Audio Loki Max equalizer (to boost bass and treble) hopefully to counteract Fletcher Munson Curve.
Finally I was thinking of Klipsch Forte 4 & Cornwall 4, and Frigg 2 by O Audio, as
reviews of all three say they all sound great at low volumes. I know many say Klipsch is not high end or very revealing, but is there anybody out there that owns or has heard any of the above. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I enjoy this hobby and the great music it brings to the table. I don't want to stop listening and just seeking to find a solution that would allow me to continue musical enjoyment.
I started with a Rogue Audio tube amp, did not go with my Martin Logan 11As. I then purchased a used Conrad Johnson tubed amp with 60 watts per channel. The sound did improve, but fairly lifeless at low levels. I then purchased a Bryston 4b3 cubed which is 300/channel into 8 ohms and 500/channel into 4 ohms. The Logans are 4 ohm speakers. The sound is better but still not good at low volumes. I don't plan to purchase another amp. Will try an equalizer to remedy the Fletcher Munson Curve and if that fails will purchase a speaker that comes alive at 50 DB. I am hoping I can find this.
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Klipsch Heresy IIIs with the titanium drivers with an actual compression throat (the IVs just stick the poly driver at the base of the horn flare and it sort of sucked...terrible frequency blats in the upper mids drove them to another owner). I also use the brilliant Schiit Loki Max remote eq from time to time to bash Fletcher Munson into submission.
I have always been a big fan of B&W so most of my experience comes from them with various receivers (Rotel/Technics) and I have always been pleased. However, I just recently (1 week of listening) purchased the Klipsch and Advance Paris 10 receiver. Wow, the Klipsch are my fav new speakers by far. Not sure if the tubes play a role but I dont think you would be sorry. Also, I would not buy into the hype of what others say is Audiophile or let cost alone drive quality in your mind. This combo shines and you can believe all the reviews. Either way, for the price point you can't go wrong.. I'm looking at McIntosh now for a comparison which has amazing build quality but for what you pay for one component or speaker you could have an entire amazing system with the Klipsch..
KEF Reference Meta The 5 3 or 1 Look at the Spinorama Klippel data. Both objectively and subjectively they are dynamic at all volumes including very low levels.
@lanx0003, I’ve never heard a digital treble boost to sound as natural and wonderful as an analog one. Digital EQ is totally there for bass management and room correction. But if you are simply tone shaping treble, digital still lacks.
Oh don’t get a Luxman just for tone controls. I researched it and the treble dial is a bell centered at 10 khz. Low low! Need delicacy not harsh fatiguing treble. Get a used Massive passive, a stereo program easy to use (but expensive) D W Fearn VT-5. The patter’s functionality and sonics are beyond reproach and similar to my Charter Oak PEQ-1, which I’ll probably be buried with lol. They pop up on Reverb every now and again. You want serial number below 1100 or so. Change in maker and cutting of corners led to inferior piece of kit after that cutoff.
I also own Martin Logan and use Bryston amplification and can say that without EQ and at low SPL the music is lifeless. But with bass and treble modest boost on my EQ the situation is radically better at same low SPL. Music then becomes rich textured life like and full. Even at low SPL. Loki Max wasn’t so hot.
Bass and treble boosts are my forte and I can point you in very much better directions than Loki Max. I’ve owned it and it was greatly inferior to a pro analog piece I own for the use case you described
I listen to my large desktop audio system at very low volumes ~12/hrs/day. I've had quite a series of 2-way speakers on the desktop, augmented by a JLAudio e110. It's a 13' x 13' room, so this is fine. I can recommend 2 speakers that always satisfy at low volume:
I like this topic. In the real world don’t we tend to listen at modest volumes? Like others here I often listen at low volumes early in the morning while the house is asleep and not missing any detail or dynamics at low volumes is something I enjoy and now require with any system changes. I feel my current setup is superb at it. I’m using Cube Nenuphar Mini’s with a Line Magnetic LM845 Special and a pair of REL S510’s. Fantastic at low volumes and high as well. Most Friday or Saturday nights my wife and I listen and she’s a bass head and specifically listens to songs with bass. She gets a kick out of any track that makes the windows rattle.
I’ve used other amps that also sound great at low volumes including First Watt and Primaluna. I think the commonality is speakers with good efficiency and tube amps or amps that are lower wattage but can deliver those watts regardless of volume.
@kjl1065If you haven’t done this already, I recommend you treat your room with acoustic treatments before replacing your speakers. I had my system dialed in pretty good in my 2-story family room after treating the room as much as I could. However, I just moved my hifi gear to my newly finished dedicated listening room. After my positive experience upstairs with room treatments, I installed ASC tube traps, 16 ASC Soundplanks for the side walls and 3 GIK absorption/diffuser panels for the back wall and it was amazing how the flutter echo, room boom, etc., was eliminated with these treatments. I could hear more details in the music, at much lower db, that I couldn’t hear upstairs in the 2-story family room because I couldn’t treat the room like it needed to be treated. It would have become an eye sore. The proper room treatments will give any speaker the opportunity to showcase what the manufacturer intended. I replaced a lot of gear over the years and never focused on my room with bare walls and few reflective glass photos or artwork hanging until years later. I read about room treatments over the years, but just didn’t care to pursue it. I was focused on the gear. I finally bought room treatments a few years ago and that changed the sound of my setup dramatically. Not treating the room was a big mistake and it caused me to swap out gear that may have been just fine. Treat the room as best you can if you haven’t done so yet. I like GIK’s prices, but they recommend tons of treatments and it becomes ugly and over damped if overdone. ASC costs more, but their Soundplanks are tasteful and they don’t overpower the look of the room and the room still sounds live and not over damped. The last piece of my puzzle is an area rug which is being delivered today! This is just my experience and opinion.
I am 74 and have hearing loss in the upper mids upwards. I have ML 11a speakers Audionet AMP 1 V2 power amp. I have recently purchased a schiit Loki EQ unit to boost treble. It seems to liven up the sounnd, better separation and depth. I can listen at 70 - 80db no problem. However I use theese ear gadgets https://www.flareaudio.com/products/immerse to reduce high frequency distortion.
Same problem here. EQ solved the issue as well as anti resonance/vibration products. More silence and less resonance make you hear more music at low volume level especially. I use Symposium and AV rooms products with success.
I agree with carsbad2f on the hearing aids. I am pushing 71 and am on my second set of hearing aids.
Mine have a recorded music setting that is designed specifically for music. Another advantage of using them is I can increase the volume of the hearing aids left, right, or together which effectively raises the volume of the system.
Before I got them music was lifeless and I knew I was missing something.
I have a pair of Fyne Audio F-702 floorstanding speakers, augmented by a pair of Rythmik 12” subwoofers, that sound excellent a low volume levels, although I am not sure of the exact volume levels I play them at. I am driving them with a tube preamp and solid state monobloc amplifiers of 200 watts each. At “background” levels, they retain good imaging, tonal qualities, and overall sound quality. While it remains true that the speakers “open up” at a moderate listening level, with sound quality improving in all aspects, they nonetheless sound quite good at the lower volume levels preferred by my wife.
I've owned two Klipsch models and spent a full day with LaScalas, I've owned two very good Triangles, Own one pair of Martin-Logans and extensive experience with another. Plus, I like tube equipment at low volumes.
@carlsbad2 I have not heard the horn array model, specifically, but, a guy nearby who bought my DIs some years ago has a newer & ’smaller’ model as well now... with a single 15" and the array, (that’s it, no mid bass drivers). It had all kinds of detail (wow kinda detail), low end for days, very coherent and sounded like my TAD bred with some horn a bit (sonics-wise). But, that model is 94 db or so sensitive, probably to accommodate the bass extension. By detail, i don’t mean the tilted up/FR gimmick done by most manufacturers to make a dude believe his speaker is detailed...this had something i would attribute to the array, small driver impulse response perk in a FR range where such a driver never typically operates in.
I think the 103db dual 15 horn array model has the right ingredients for someone like the OP, but, as you may suspect, i think he tweaks/refines his models over time based on feedback..., a polycell model sold to somebody 5 years ago may have well received some additional tweaking since then..I recently picked up a pair of used moabs from a dude, one of the earlier serial base model, in the midst of painting it, etc. I am sure newer Moabs have gotten tweaked since then.
@deep_333 I have long been intrigued by that speaker pictrued but have never heard it. At 103 dB/watt is should excell at low volumes. I do worry that it doesn’t have the mid bass driver that this manufacturer usually uses. However, the designer prides himself on a flat frequency response so I’m sure he has it figured out. I do have a lot of experience with this brand (although not in my system right now) and the low mass midrange array is one of the best upper midrange performers I’ve ever heard and it does sound great at low levels.
I'm there as well at 69 with minimal diminished hearing. I agree with @audphile1on the EQ use. I wasn't using the EQ on my McIntosh MA352, but since my diagnosis I adjusted the EQ settings to match my hearing levels and I'm pleased with the outcome so far.
One note on hearing aids, the specialists have told me they are optimized for human conversation, not music. I did try aids without the EQ on and with EQ on and I wasn't pleased with the results.
There is so much hate for Klipsch. I get it, the lower end stuff is defiantly made on a budget. They do require a little bit of modifying to get the best out of them.
Having said that, I have Forte's, every morning I'm listing to the radio around 50db, before everyone else gets up. They sound dynamic, good soundstage, not missing anything from top to bottom. What they do lack, is the pinpoint imagining, but they also have a huge sweet spot, that the speakers that image so well do not have.
On my setup, when it is turned up, they sound about the same, but the soundstage just keeps getting bigger. At times you would swear there are way more then 2 speakers in my setup.
If you have the budget, skip the Forte, look into the Volti, it is a much better done version of the Klipsch, so they charge as such.
Hi, I’m in the same situation as you with my hearing.After a few years of experimenting with components and sound I finally reached a point where my sound quality is very satisfying to me. I’m using a Shindo pre amp and amplifier with a Mr T power conditioner.My digital setup is a Synergistic Research switch which connects Ethernet cable, and Muon Pro to the Aqua LinQ transporter to my Weiss 501 Mk2. I used the DSP on my Weiss to my advantage and my taste. I am listening with Fleetwood Deville SQ at 60 to 75 dbS and sounds great, whether loud or low, the details these speakers give out is amazing.After lots or trial and errors, this is the best I ever heard. Good luck with your search , just thought to share my personal journey.
It might help to know what you listen to. Is it music? Can you give some examples? Did they use instruments and human voices? It’s hard to play a violin or acoustic guitar in my studio without it hitting well above your preferred volume. Crescendos are louder as my buddy strums harder or my wife’s flute pegs the note with just the right timbre. I have a baritone and it doesn’t really feel alive till I make significant pressure. Are you sure you like music? Or is it something else you seek. To spend money? Get a hearing aid and keep it loud. Love the music till you die!
My Acoustat Model X’s can blast me out of the room with just Forty watts, but they really do need an subwoofer at lower sound levels. Another thought might be you getting a set of Planar headphones.
The original line of Fyne Audio speaker play well at lower levels with the right amp. I am driving F502SPs with a Luxman 505UXII and listen at lower levels a lot of the time.
@kjl1065. About 2-3 weeks ago I started a similar thread. I had similar issues and desires. You can read more by searching that thread and my user name.
Long story short, I solved my own issue by purchasing a Shiit Loki Max EQ. Cool device, kind of expensive. Their cheaper models might do the trick, fewer frequency ranges to tweak. Your mileage may vary.
I would recommend looking at Joseph Crowe Audio for a pair of horns.
he makes numerous options that are perfect for low level listening, which is how I listen most nights.
Try hORNS out of Poland. Beautifully engineered and designed speaker line that give Avantgarde a run for the money.
I have the hORNS Universum MK4, paired with Jeff Rowland 925 monos and Rowland Coherence II preamp. Sounds amazing at low volume regardless of the input.
@deep_333 I have long been intrigued by that speaker pictrued but have never heard it. At 103 dB/watt is should excell at low volumes. I do worry that it doesn’t have the mid bass driver that this manufacturer usually uses. However, the designer prides himself on a flat frequency response so I’m sure he has it figured out. I do have a lot of experience with this brand (although not in my system right now) and the low mass midrange array is one of the best upper midrange performers I’ve ever heard and it does sound great at low levels.
RC + PEQ from Wiim, possibly with a Umik-1. You could EQ the L/R channels separately as well as the subwoofer to achieve better integration of the system. Minimize possible phase shift with proper settings in Q, slope, target curve, and so forth. Very effective. Not compared to the Loki Max yet, but I believe the digital EQ coupled with RC is more precise / effective than analog EQ.
Right now, at 5 AM, my room's ambient noise is about 25 dBA, and I'm listening to my system at 50 dBA. The low frequencies below 100 Hz are boosted by about 5–8 dB (I limit it) using PEQ. The bass notes in this setting are clean and articulated. The overall soundstage shrinks, but hey, let me know if you have a better way to maintain a similar soundstage at this low volume level.
Op, just one more consideration: Don't forget noise reduction. You haven't specified your room acoustics or what you are using to reduce signal/source noise. My goal is to attain a complete black background in the listening space, so that the sound shines through. I find isolation/dampening and power conditioning help make a significant improvement in enjoying music at any volume level. I've worked many tweaks into the system just for that purpose. Also, it makes a difference what time of day or evening I listen. Evenings are flat-out the best for me. But early mornings can be also be good, as there is, theoretically, less noise from the power grid coming to the house. The right equipment is vital, but if you want to "feel" the music at low volume nearly the way you do at higher levels, I suggest you put work into reducing noise, as much as finding better gear.
I own Klipsch Cornwall IVs with a Luxman L-507z, Hifi Rose RS130 streamer , Luxman D07x SACD and DAC and Technics SL-1300G. I may be a newb but the cornwalls sing LOUD and at super low levels. I dont understand the crude rough comment. They sound amazing. I recommend you go listen to them
The benefit of ESLs and other planars comes from dispersion. There's less reflected energy horizontally and vertically hence the proportion of direct sound to reflected is higher. I hadn't really thought of this as a good low volume listening trait but I suppose it is.
The other trait that we most focus on is frequency response. Some speakers have a U, W (some Dynaudio) or even just a tweeter up tilt (Dali) which certainly makes them better candidates for lower volumes.
The klipsch speakers are quite dynamic, and like many horn-based systems, they sound alive at low volume levels. But, they are on the crude and rough side. You would do better by paying up for Volti horn systems. I would also recommend the single-driver backloaded horn speakers from Charney Audio and the single driver field coil systems from Songer Audio. Open baffle systems from PureAudioProject also sound good at modest listening levels.
For more conventional systems that sound quite good at low volume, look at Audio Note speakers.
The speakers I have recommended are fairly efficient so they eill work well with low-powered tube amps. These are my favorite kinds of amps and they bring music to life at quite low listening levels. Brands to look out for include Audio Note, Yamamoto, and Synthesis Audio. The combination of high efficiency speaker and low-powered tube amps is hard to beat.
Get an equalizer and you can dial down the annoying frequency range and boost treble and bass. You are replicating the function of a loudness button. No other changes required. Another option is to dump your bryston gear and pickup a Luxman 590 integrated. Has tone controls and loudness button.
You have a good front end that deserved more than these Klipsches. These Klipsches never sounded good at low volume or high volume..very deficient. If you can afford and have the space for a Klipsch Jubilee model, it got rescued by Celestion as well as an active solution and started to sound pretty good.
But, if you only have a Forte level budget, try something like this instead, something different, outside of the group think mantra. There are some technical reasons for a horn array like this to meet your low spl detail requirements (or high spl requirements if you decided to party it up someday), but, you could request color of choice for horns and cabinet or whatever, for better WAF.
If it didn’t work, you could return it in 60 days.
Finally I was thinking of Klipsch Forte 4 & Cornwall 4, and Frigg 2 by O Audio, as
reviews of all three say they all sound great at low volumes. I know many say Klipsch is not high end or very revealing, but is there anybody out there that owns or has heard any of the above. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I enjoy this hobby and the great music it brings to the table. I don’t want to stop listening and just seeking to find a solution that would allow me to continue musical enjoyment.
1. Change amps to perhaps a tube amp or a first watt, an amp designed to sound good at less than one watt, which is where you are listening.
I think that is excellent advice. Give that a shot first.
I don’t know your ML’s, but I can confirm my Yamamoto 45 sounds simply wonderful at 0.2 watts per channel on my Hornings. (I'm guessing; didn't measure the output)
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