Speaker Suggestions $30K Sasha DAW competitor?

If you find ML smooth you must find Magico and SF dead. or have a much more damped room than I use. 

concert level is not really the domain of a dome tweeter or frankly a ribbon…. IF that really is the requirement , i would be looking at a JBL. Best to you in your search and journey :-)

Jim

Screechy highs are usually attributed to the following:

1. Lack of room acoustic treatment

2. Speaker placement

3. Associated equipment - components and cables

4. Combination of all of the above

I have Wilson Sabrina and there’s zero harshness. At any listening level. If your room is not treated, don’t be surprised if you end up back in square one with new speakers. Can you list the rest of your system and describe your room acoustics?

Also the type of music you listen to…there’s just a lot of “hot” stuff there that’s going to sound harsher than the well recorded jazz, blues, rock or classical. That’ll be the trade off but you can mitigate it to a degree by addressing the items I mentioned above  

@plaw What amps are you using to control the Sasha 1’s? If it’s not optimal, a better amp can transform the way the speaker performs. Also agree with everything audphile1 says above.

I owned Wilson Yvette and also found no harshness. 

One speaker definitely worth auditioning if you can find them is the Verity Audio Amadis S.  Made in Canada they tend to fly under the radar but they ooze quality and produce some of the best sound I’ve ever heard and never harsh.  Here’s a review of the prior model,,,

https://www.ultraaudio.com/equipment/verity_amadis.htm

https://verityaudio.com/product/amadis/

Other excellent choices in your price range are Rockport Avior, Joseph Audio Pearls, and the beautiful Usher TD-20 (another one that flies under the radar with amazing value and sound right up there with Verity IMHO).  Last, and although under $20k I’ll add the Vandersteen Quatro that I think punches well above its weight.  Anyway, hope this helps, and best of luck. 

Thank you for the suggestions Soix and Tomic - I never considered JBL because i thought it was old tech and not very resolving - kind of like Klipsch - but I will go check it out.  I got a private email from a gentleman who sold his Sasha 1's because of the harsh tweeters (he said they were unlistenable - don't really agree with that but...) and moved to Monitor Audio PL500 II's, I will check those out too.  For those of you who are wondering what I am driving the Sasha's with, I am using Rowland Monoblocks which are the only amps I have heard (besides Burmeister) that sound beautiful.  On amps I have tried Bryston, Classe, PS Audio BHK (I have heard the D'agistino and they sound like krells to me) - all sucked because the Sasha's are hard to drive.  I have tried various cables, different preamps (I am now on Audio Research).  Even the dealers admit that the Focal tweeter in the Sasha 1's are known to be harsh - the DAWS don't have that tweeter and the Alexia V's are just beautiful.  Yvette's are a completely different animal - don't have the soundstage or dynamics for me, but they sound nice.  Thanks for the input.

you should go listen to the platinum 300 Gen 2 or gen 3 much better than Wilson.

oh sorry those are for monitor audio

You are close to the YG Haileys.  I love mine.

@plaw 

I have listened to both the Sasha 1’s and 2’s and there was no harshness at all and I cranked most rock and Jazz. I mean loud! Except for the source, it was all Mac.

Not sure if you mentioned, but what equipment are you using to feed your Wilson’s? 

Ultimately always make up your own mind by listening on speakers. Beware of someone telling you simply another speaker is better(especially without telling you what they think they hear). even the best speakers vary a lot and final choice is personal(different listeners vary in both positive and negative performance aspects and how they balance them for a final decision). The single most important thing in choosing a system is to learn and recognize what YOU care about in sound reproduction. I once was part of a test of two amps that varied only in chassis materials. All of us heard the same things. But there was a distinct split in which amps the two groups would have bought.

Stenheim, Rockport, Focal, Marten and Vimberg are some brands you could evaluate. I really liked a pair of Marten stand mounts I heard recently. KLH are also becoming more popular. 

at axpona we had a room with alta audio there new adam speakers sounded as good as the daws yet cost half as much

the latest borresons are mind blowing

Dave and Troy

audio Intellect nj

alta and borrenson dealers

I don't listen loud or do rock anymore but I do know what to look at

for $30k.

Borresen

Stenheim

Vimberg

Joseph

In order

@plaw room acoustics - see my first response on this thread. If you don’t have that taken care of(didn’t see you talk about it here), you will be wasting your time and money. Best speakers, components and cables in the world will not make up for a crappy room. The higher the resolution of your components and speakers the worse it will all sound if your room isn’t treated. You’ll end up on a merry go round. Just a friendly advice.

Did you read the recent TAS review of the ps audio?

I haven’t heard them, but they are the one reasonably priced speaker right now that could tempt me from my TAD CR1’s (with subs and stat supertweeters)

With the free in home trial it seems like a no brainer- and if you have BHK300’s like me, even more reason to try them.

please report back - this is the most excited I’ve been about a speaker in a decade

The only detractors I can see are the price (too low for some audiophiles and the brand name.

Vivid Audio Giya 3 or 4.

@plaw 

Perhaps you're sensitive to high frequencies.  Is your entire audio chain solid state?  What's your source, analog or digital?  

Interesting suggestions. As I understand it, the Wilsons are set-up by Wilson and are adjusted to your listening room/chair. So they seem to be more of a one person set-up as I understand it. As far as the tweeter, could be your equipment and not so much the speaker.

Verity is a very musical speaker leaning slightly towards the warm side.

Vivids - we have the Kaya 45s in our listening room now. Took a while to get them set-up and now they are really amazing but you do need to match carefully.

Magico - the new A5? is what my people in the industry are saying are the go to speakers - around $25K????

Happy Listening.

@emaillists I was also pretty excited about the FR30 - just not excited that they force me to get a booster to hear their speaker - especially since my doc advised against getting the booster - I actually want to sell my direct stream and be done with them.   I have to say that the service at PS Audio was really great - they pick up the phone, answer your questions.  I had the BHK and it would go into protection around 70db with Sasha's - although there was a sound improvement over the Classe that I had been using.  

@kennyc  Very interesting idea.  Tube preamp up front.  Solid State Power.  Only happens on some songs.  

@audiophile1 The speakers were set up by Wilson dealer.  I think that the fact that two different Wilson dealers have acknowledged shortcomings of the inverted Focal tweeters in the Sasha 1's are a good indicator that it may be inherent in the design.

Good suggestions about room acoustics, but I suggest if the Wilsons only sound screechy on some songs, then it's probably the recording that is screechy.  Try the specific recordings on other systems and see how they sound.

I would look seriously at the Vivid Kaya 90s.  They are excellent speakers that are very resolving and sound much bigger than you would expect.  There is certainly the Raidho X series which is awesome sound long and has some great products in that range.  Those are the two I would think of first. 

If you have the space give the Magnepan 20 and 30 series a listen they are always compared to speakers costing much more.

Lots of good suggestions. If you get a chance check out the Bowers and Wilkins 802 D4 or 801 D4 (just a bit over budget). Good luck in your search.

 Cheers,

Scott

I would go with a KEF Blade 2 Meta or if you have a very big room the Blade 1 Meta. If you do not have side wall space, then look elsewhere.

I am going with Blade 2 Meta and a new KRELL amp on a long wall placement.

@plaw 

I was at ps audio listening to the fr30 a month ago and the only requirement is a mask. Rockport speakers should be a must audition on your list as well. Good luck! 

 

Ron 

@plaw -- "...Only happens on some songs."

So, you really like your speakers but have a few songs that sound screechy.  It's no secret that there are albums out there that just aren't well recorded.  Or, they were mixed and mastered using studio monitors that had different characteristics than your Wilsons -- things sounded perfect in the studio and not so perfect on your system. 

That's an inherent dilemma with ANY stereo -- sound quality is always dependent upon the recording.  A system that sounds great with some recordings is not going to sound that way with others.  The one possible fix is to be able to adjust equalization, but that also has drawbacks -- another component in the chain, and the hassle of changing the settings with every new album or song -- at some point, most people want to listen to music instead of putzing around with adjustments. 

Odds are that if you change speakers so that the harsh recordings sound better, you'll end up finding other recordings that used to sound great no longer have all of their magic. 

@misstl I had a salesman once tell me that the good thing about avanteguarde is that whatever song is played sounds great.  I listened to the Wilson Master WAMM Chromosonics a couple months ago - and I wanted to play a favorite Dylan song, so they played Senor - absolutely awful because of the recording.  I get what you are saying - and you may be correct.  But I find it curious that it would only affect the highs.  One of the other problems is it is hard to listen to some of the speakers here because they are not available anywhere.  I really want the Alexia V because it sounded really really good, but just don't have $70K.  I don't think the DAWS will sound much better (although it is noticeable).  

@ronboco How did the FR30's sound?  Did you buy them?  If not, why?  I can't answer why PS Audio requires "proof of booster", but that is what Chris said over the phone less than a week ago.  

Thank you all for your suggestions.  Going to take some time to find these speakers.  I have ruled out the snail-looking speakers just because I don't like the look.  I got a few people talking about Monitor Audio - that will be my first one to audition - great group of people here.

@plaw -- "... had a salesman once tell me...."

That's a great opening line for a statement!  

Actually, one of the issues with how recordings sound involves vocals.  I find vocals the most common source of harsh, spitty or forward sound on recordings.  Which microphone was used, how close the singer was to the mike (some musicians seem to want to show us their tonsils) and the gain/equalization compared to other instruments are all choices made in the recording and mixing studios.  And, don't forget to add dynamic compression and volume limiting to the equation.  

And, like a scrambled egg, not much can be done to undo those intentional recording choices once the LP, CD or music file is being played back on your system.  

@plaw 

The FR30s aren’t a bad sounding speaker. Nice and clean even cranked up. The bass wasn’t to my liking but it might be the room. I didn’t buy because I had already purchased Rockport  Avior ii before the FR30 was available to listen to. I just really wanted to hear the FR30s. That said I would of still chosen the Rockports hands down. On a side note I did listen to the DAWs before buying the Rockports and they were too bright for my taste. 

I was looking in that price range a few years ago.

Had Wilson Watt/Puppy 7's, which have the same tweeter as the Sasha 1's.

The contenders were:

Von Schweikert VR 44's and 55's, YG Haley 2's, Sasha DAW's, Rockport Avia 2's, Magico A5's, Marten's forget the model, and Joseph Audio either Perspective 2 or the top of the line.

Bottom line ended up with 2 systems, featuring the Magico A5 in one and the Joseph Audio Pulsar 2 Graphene in the other.

In short:

The Schwekert's were too pricey and not as good.

Sasha DAW's not transparent enough (the new Alex V and Alexia V use newer tweeters and midrange that the DAW does not have and are fantastic, both too expensive for me).

The Marten I like is too expensive (Coltrane 3).

Rockports are warmer in tone, I had no local dealer so they were out.

YG also no local dealer and the Haley was more expensive than the other 2 speakers I bought, combined.  

I love the A5, competitive in sound to my buddy's hot off the press Alexia V, at 1/3 the cost.  He agrees.

The Pulsar 2 is also fantastic, but a "smaller" sound which slightly favors mid and high frequencies.  I think the bigger Joseph models would give more bass in a larger room.

The PS Audio is interesting, but I haven't heard it.  The review in TAS is worthless: Cordesman as a reviewer has always written in generalities and never really describes what something sounds like.  He's been like that for 30+ years - I discount anything he says.

Hope that helps.

+1

Audition extensively the A5 against Haley 2. Was hard to accept, but the A5 were better at 1/2 the price. I skipped the Rockport, they are too soft for my taste.

New KMD Orchestralls Reference speakers $30K From South Korea

 KMD 700R

Best speakers we have ever heard

www.kmdeng.co.kr/KMD/en/elementor-1042/

I contacted Paul McGowan at PS about some of the covid related comments mentioned above.  Here is his response.

"No that is no longer true (but it was).

We require visitors to be masked. Not vaccinated.

I would suggest listening to the Dali Epicon 8 speakers.  They are relatively tall at 50 inches with the stands.  They have a 29mm textile dome tweeter with a 55mm ribbon and they sound smooth and accurate IMHO.  The 6.5 inch mid is above the tweeters which really helps raise/expand the soundstage, like the more expensive Wison speakers. The two 8inch woofers create very natural sounding bass and the speakers are rated at 112 db.  I do use JL subs because my room is on the large size. And lastly they are gorgeous in the walnut or ruby macassar finishes.  Cost is about $25k. Hope you find a satisfactory solution.

UPDATE 1:  Ruled out speakers:  I have auditioned the Magico A5 and The Rockport Atria II.  Here are my impressions, the Magico sounded like the speakers were boxed in.  Like the sound was coming from the speakers - just no soundstage.  I thought the Rockports had a better soundstage, but not the resolution of the Magico.  From my subjective view, I did not think either unit was as good as the Sasha 1.  I have had a hard time finding some of the other speakers.  I may have to face the fact that the DAW is where I will end up being, I was hoping to get the Alexia V and the DAW price from a different manufacturer - but that may not exist.  The Rockports were being driven by Parasound - not the best - but not the worst either.  The Magico's were driven by Boulder - which people say is a good amp.  Super nice guy who took the time to show me some different offerings.  I showed my girlfriend the KMD700R - she said "I wouldn't have those in my house" - they look like an erector set project - sorry @rick2000.

Hear that?  The Joseph Audio Pearls are calling your name.  Imaging/soundstage to die for with a total disappearing act JA is known for with plenty of detail that sounds natural and not forced.  Worth a trip IMHO, especially at this price level.  Just my $0.02 FWIW. 

Can anyone explain the differences between the Joseph Pearl vs Perspectives? Room is about 16' x 26'

Curious minds would like to know.

@soix

The Joseph Audio Pearls are calling your name.

So I have been looking for their distributors - here is their website which has not been updated in almost 4 years. No phone number, no address.  (I especially like there is a picture of a land-line on the contact page - oopsy). So what would happen if there were problems? No dealer locator is listed. Kind of nervous about them. Crazy that basic stuff some of these manufacturers blow it on. Some have non-transferable warranties, or no returns, must be boosted, or have no contact info. This is basic stuff. You can call Rowland and chances are Jeff will pick up the phone, he stands behind his stuff - even when it is WAY out of warranty. That is what one would expect when you are spending $20K on an amp. But I am going to keep trying to hunt down that speaker.  If I find it and buy it they should give you a spiff - you're the best marketing that they have.

I totally agree with you — it’s unforgivable to me they don’t list a dealer network. No excuse for that in any way. You have to call or email to find a dealer, which is just absurd in this day and age, and I even wrote them an email about it about 6 months ago. But, when you do call (at least when they listed a phone#) you’re likely to speak directly with Jeff Joseph, and he’s great when you talk to him. Also, they’ve been around for about 30 years or so and I don’t think over that time I’ve heard a negative comment on reliability or service so I’m sure they’ve got it worked out somehow. What prompted my comment was if you melded the best qualities of your experience with the A5 and Atrias you’d have the Pearls (although I think the Pearls image/soundstage/disappear even better than Rockports). In truth, I’m not sure you got a great audition of the A5s and sounds like there may have been a setup issue of some kind, but I agree with your assessment of Rockports, especially in the treble — they tend to be a little too laid back for me in that region although otherwise great-sounding speakers (I heard them with Boulder amp/pre and top MSB DAC BTW). I also got to hear the Q7 with Vitus monoblock amps/pre (forget the DAC) and though I greatly respected them they didn’t seem to capture the “soul” of the music to really suck me in. I honestly don’t think you could go wrong with the DAW, but I also wouldn’t buy them without at least hearing the Pearls because from what you’ve said I think they do everything you’re looking for in spades. Also, they’re not nearly as persnickety to set up as Wilsons are — they of course benefit from better placement, but you don’t have to have JA set them up or sweat 1mm movements to get the sound dialed in, and I also think they’re easier to drive. Plus, at least to my eye, they’re very attractive speakers and not likely to raise girlfriend issues, so there’s that (although I personally like the aesthetics of Wilson’s speakers too, short of the monstrous Alexandrias and up). Again, FWIW.

Not sure if they qualify as being close enough in price to the Sasha DAWs, but the Vandersteen Kento Carbons are very good at around $40k new -- and I think someone has some listed at around $30K demos.  (No affiliation).  With the ability to fine-tune the base to your room, time-aligned design (parallel to Wilsons), and an easy load to drive due to their internal powered subwoofers, they might just be what you're looking for.  

Happy listening,

dawgfish

Here's KMD's all new web site 

 www.orchestalls.com

OP- I posted an extensive journey on WBF in this price range with write-up on all of them. Much spirited debate on my journey, check it out and PM me for specific questions.

What would be helpful is if you posted your 3 top criteria in a speaker - none are perfect and most excel in different ways. Unfortunately most people on this site just post what they own rather than solve your situation.

@keithr WBF?  Might you have a link kind sir?  The people on the site have given me some names to go check out / some I have eliminated / some I have not paid attention to / some I want to find still.    At this point, if money was not object - I think it would be the Alexia V, but since money is a major consideration, I want to hear everything that could fit in this dynamic speaker range.  I have heard some sub $5000 speakers that sound better than some of the ones on this list (Wharfedale EVO 4.4 / Martin Logan 60xti with the right power), I am not sure $$ = good speakers.  The DAW will have to stand until something kicks it to the curb.

@plaw , this might be the thread @keithr is talking about:

Out of sheer curiosity I stopped in at PS Audio to listen to the FR30.  Having spent an hour with them I must say I was not impressed considering their price point.  To be fair I really don't think the room was set up properly (?) and an hour is not a very long demo.  I'm not saying that I couldn't live with them, but at this price point there is a lot to compare them against.

YMMV

Regards,

barts