Speaker Recommendation Help Please.

Have you ever heard the Wilson Audio Duette 2? I say that because you mentioned Wilson already and the Duette 2 is the best stand mount speaker I have heard. They fill a room with sound and have the slam you are looking for. Just my two cents. They are not cheap by any means but really sound miraculous for the size.

Thank you for the suggestion and no, I have not heard them.  The trouble is I have limited access to pre-owned kit being in Canada so sourcing and auditioning a pair will be very problematic.  I will certainly keep my eyes open, however!

@bigfatpaulie 
Very nice write up. You gave all the information that one would need to advise you, yet I am not sure where to start. Seeing your picture of the room tells me that your most pressing problem might not be which brand of speaker to buy. The ones you have now is positioned so close to the back wall that there is little chance that they will give the kind of enjoyment you are looking for. Push them out more than 4’ and see how they change. The best advice I can give you is to read this book from Jim Smith: Get Better Sound. Unlike headphones, a system setup has a lot to do with the room itself. You can get great sound only if you do it properly. Listen to the speakers that you mentioned above in proper setup first before you bring them home so that you can be aware of their capabilities. Good luck. 

I think you may be best served by narrow dispersion speakers. Klipsch Heresy’s come to mind for full range, Hsu HB-1 for smaller satellites if you plan on adding a sub.

On your drawing, on the upper left, consider floor to ceiling bass traps.

Above/behind the TV consider GIK Acoustics impression series diffusor/absorber panels. If you get white/white they’ll vanish. Behind the speakers, as thick as you can stand, the mondo bass traps with the impression series diffusor, same white on white.

@spenav Thank you.  I tried to be as complete as possible.  I appreciate you taking the the time to read it all.  The trouble with pushing my speakers out 4 feet is that 1) they would then be 6 feet from my ears and 8 feet apart and 2) it would be a no-go with my wife :)  The reason I am starting with speakers and looking for advice is, as you have aptly pointed out, placement and the room is the biggest factor.  I am looking for guidance of what would actually work in a space like this, in this location.  I fully agree and acknowledge the challenges of my room which is why I went into as much detail as I did about.  To my earlier point about Magnepans not being an option, that's strictly because of my room and the lack of space behind the speakers.  The speakers playing well in my room, I believe, will be the biggest determining factor in the success of my stereo.  I am looking for speaker/room synergy here (if that's possible).

 

@erik_squires Excellent advice!!  Thank you.  And yes, room treatment will be essential.  You can't see it in the photo I provided so here is the other angle, facing the kitchen: 

 

 

In addition to your suggestions, I am thinking treatment will be a good idea above the cabinets on that blank wall (about 2 feet tall, to the ceiling).  I really, really appreciate the specifics!  Thank you.  I'm not sure if these are available through a dealer here, but I am pretty comfortable buying room treatments online.  I also never thought to consider a narrow dispersion speaker; this is the kind of advice I was hoping for.  

Agree bass traps are essential, but even more so speakers designed to be close to the wall. First thought was K-horns, but not where the current speakers are. Have you considered Larsen 8 or 9? They are made for against the wall, and I was amazed when I heard the 9s how well they performed. 

If 4 ft. out is off limits, which is fine, any Wilson, Focal etc. is going to give you only a fraction of what you're paying for...and will sorely disappoint vs. if you heard them properly set up. Cheers,

Spencer

Hi @sbank !  Not only have I never heard Larson's, I've never heard OF Larson!  Thank you for the suggestion.  It looks like they don't have a distributor, much less a dealer in Canada, but I did just email the closest distributor to see what my options are (if any).  Thanks for the suggestion!!

I also appreciate your candor about Wilson/Focal likely not being a good option due to only having 12-14 inches behind the speaker to work with (assuming a, about, 20 inch deep speaker).  Would Sonus Faber be in the same boat?  I suspect so...  One reason I was considering the Guaneri's is that they are shallower.  The same goes for the SabrinaX's (on the top).  You bring up a good point: when I audition, I should move the speakers to where they will be in my room (ie close the walls) and not where the dealer puts them for best performance.  

@bigfatpaulie Yes, I would say Sonus and most conventional box or dipoles would have the same concern close to the wall. 

Audio Note is very well regarded and often on long walls and close. They don't look "high tech" in terms of styling, but many rave about them when paired with the right stuff (usually tube gear and very specific cabling. They're kinda pricey too...Cheers,

Spencer

"The speakers can only be about 12-14 inches from the back wall (I have a wife and it's our family room)"

The buzz kill is the lack of free space you DON"T have from the back wall.

Whatever you pick, consider a model design that doesn't mind being close to the back wall. Speakers usually sound best pushed out in the room. Keep in mind your choices will be compromised. Focal/SF optimum when out 4-6 feet.

 

I think, unfortunately, with your room layout the only way you’re going to get anywhere near great sound would be to listen to something in the near field to account for the vast openness to the left and glass wall to the immediate right of your speakers.

Totems work well close to the wall.  And a subwoofer or two for the slam you’re looking for.

I don’t think you’re going to get anything near the sound you get with your cans, though, because your selection of headphones is awesome!

Good luck with your speaker selection.

I see lot's of recommendations of what you "should" do, such as

- pull out the speakers from the wall

- add a bunch of acoustic treatment and bass traps

 

These are all "perfect world" recommendations and tend to be "knee-jerk" responses without really paying attention to what the OP's situation really is.

I have been in large open weird rooms similar to what bigfatpaulie has.  I will say that acoustic treatments can actually make things worse sometimes and need to be done one step at a time.  Sometimes, a particular bass trap or acoustic panel can ruin the sound (yes, I have experience with this).  I had a room almost exactly like his and put acoustic panels on the front wall between the speakers - and it completely ruined the sound; made it anemic and totally weak.  So, if you are doing acoustic treatments, do one at a time and listen carefully.

Second thing is the speaker placement.  Because you are having to put the speakers very close to the wall, I would highly recommend looking for speakers that are either sealed box or have a FRONT vent port for the bass.  Speakers with a rear vent will not work very well when placed that close to the wall.

Now on to the speakers you mentioned.  Wilson speakers are generally very revealing and very fast responding.  They tend to have a bright harsh edge with some equipment because they are so fast and require special consideration when you choose preamp/amp/cables.  I have heard Wilsons sound excellent with McIntosh and some tube amps, but they definitely sound harsh/bright and fatiguing with some of the higher resolution equipment.  Be mindful of this if you are looking at Wilson.  The Sophia 1 have aluminum woofers and titanium dome tweeter, which are definitely going to sound bright.  The newer generations typically use Scanspeak drivers, which are also bright and fast responding.

I have always loved Sonus Faber speakers.  They are very natual sounding and also very neutral sounding.  They sound great with many different amps/preamps and they are more forgiving to bad electronics/cables.  Excellent choice.  However, the tweeters are soft-dome which are nice but do not have as much resolution/transparency in the very high frequencies.  This means they are not as detailed or revealing as other speakers with different tweeters.  They are still not a bad choice.

The Focal speakers are also completely different.  They are extremely clean sounding.  But in my opinion, they are so clean sounding that they lack texture and "grit" for all the different tones and resonances.  They can also sound thin in the midrange with a lot of systems.  You really have to hear the speaker to decide if you like this type of sound.

Another speaker that you could potentially look at are the Revel PerformaBe series.  They are very high resolution but without the harsh edge of wilson and have good bass with a front port.   At this point, we will probably have another 5-10 different speaker recommendations because everybody thinks their speakers are the "best".  I always try to describe how a speaker sounds instead of trying to tell you what speaker I think you should get, lol.

A couple more comments.

The one acoustic treatment that I would actually recommend firmly in your room is to get a very large and thick area rug to put on the floor in front of the speakers between the speakers and the "listening couch". 

Second, if you are seriously considering the Focal speakers, I would recommend looking for a full Class A amp - think Pass Labs XA series (your INT-30A is an example), or even Parasound JC1 run at high-bias Class A mode.  You need this type of amp to get any midrange body (else it will tend to sound very thin in the midrange).

heh, I can't help commenting more.  I see several people have recommended Klipsch speakers (i.e. K-Horns, Heresy, Cornwall).  These are very unique speakers.  They are very lively sounding and can be extremely fun to listen to (especially if it's your first time hearing them).  However--- they are horn loaded midrange and tweeter.  Because of this, they have an echo/reverberation effect on the mids/highs that sort of sound like your are listening to a live performance in a huge hall (with the echo/reverberation).  They also have a slightly "tangy" flavor to the sound.  It is a very "vintage" type of sound.  Because you have so many hard surfaces in your room, I would be concerned that the reflections and the horns will cause the high frequencies to become a mess. 

Also, you really need to "love" this type of sound because you will be hearing it all the time.  This is not a bad thing if that is the type of sound you are after, but you could become really tired of this signature after a short while if you don't "love" it. lol.

OP:  Don't forget the ceiling for treatment., especially when your other options are limited.

I'm not sure what you meant about the wall above the cabinets, but I wouldn't put anything above a source of fire. :) If there was not a stove there I would suggest GIK corner traps.

You should check out ATC. Sealed system that can be placed close to rear wall . Here is a dealer up in your neck of the woods!!

 

 

What about some Canadian made Reference 3A de Capos?

@bigfatpaulie 
By now it should be obvious why I couldn’t be very specific in my advice. It can get very confusing very fast. Seeing your entire kitchen, I understand why the lady of the house might not want you to transform it into a recording studio 😀. It’s nice and tidy and can stay that way if you plan the whole thing right. You might be able to have your cake and eat it too. To your credit, you are doing it the right way: you start with the speakers. Based on your inherent limitations, you should search for speakers designed to be placed close to or even hung on the wall. They do exist. Paired with a couple of small subwoofers, the sound can be quite satisfying. Room treatment should come later as it is difficult to predict your particular room aberrations. It’s a trial and error thing for the most part. Please heed my advice about Jim Smith’s book. It might be the best $40 you have spent and might save you thousands. Good luck and have fun.

I don’t know how it would sound , but aesteticly speaking Tannoy Canterbury

would look fine in your room.

But , I have a bias for theme, the most beautifull speakers IMO.
 

width : 26.77 ´´

I have often seen them , closed to the front wall.

 

I have the SF Serafinos in a relatively large room with an open side and have been well satisfied. Like you, I'm drawn to detail and was a little concerned but I've found the Serafinos are resolving but also not fatiguing. Plus, they fill the room, at least enough for me. You have lots of good choices and hard to say what is best but SF would likely be a good fit. Good luck. 

I think you are on the right track with the Sonus Fabers. Get the best you can afford, probably floorstanders given the size of your open plan space.

before you even think about buying speakers the most important item is your source because if that's no good you could have the best speakers in the world and they will still sound like crap.

you should take a look at the monitor audio platinum series unbelievable sounding speakers world class their driver technology is way ahead of everybody and they're build quality is amongst the best.

I strongly recommend Audio Kinesis speakers. They will outperform Klipsch speakers mentioned above and many others.

Wilson Tunetots + subs because of your rear wall limitation.  They are cut from the same cloth as SabrinaX, Sasha DAW, etc with X material and shared drivers.  Sounds like Wilson may be your thing since you like air, details, texture, neutrality without brightness.  SF tends to lean more romantic, some may say colored.

Rethinking furniture and speaker placement can solve a lot of the issues already mentioned. My space is 14' x 29', half dining and half living room The easy solution was to place the speakers in the living area and fire across the short dimension. It didn't take long to realize this was wreaking havoc on the sound quality. . Rearranged everything - speakers fire down the long axis, across the listening position and then across a long dining room table. They sound great most anywhere. This also allowed me to place them 3' off the front wall. I'm using Totem Hawk speakers made in Canada. They have a range of speakers which may interest you including stand speakers and wall mount. There are plenty of reviews of Totem online

Where in Canada? I have a friend in Canada Alberta to be exact who is selling a pair of sonus faber quinary speakers. Lol SP.  Any how Ithey were there too of the line stand mounts.  Apparently the most lovely midrange and highly musical. Let me know if you are interested and I can give you his contact info. 

 

Regards

 

 

 

Your room and listening location are your limitations. You state you have a large room but in your picture, your seating location is very close to the speakers. Also, your speakers are going to be setup close to the wall so you will need to adjust which speaker works close to walls. 
Since you live in Canada I’m sure you heard of Totem. I would look at the new models that are small floor standing or some used Windows, Forest, Hawk, or model one with a sub (I’ve owned many totems in the past).

The Wilson duette’s are also very nice sounding and made for close wall setup.

For the last 15 years, all my speakers have been Usher and Revel. The ushers are front ported so they can be placed closer to the back wall. I owned the usher mini dancer II’s with the top of the line Hegel integrated at the time and it was a very good sounding system and 1 of the best looking speaker since yours will be in a family room with the WAF. I use the large Ushers in my dedicated listening room now.

Another option would be the smaller Revel floorstanding speakers. They are back ported but since they have multiple 6” or 8” drivers, the back wall will give you a bigger sound. I use the smaller model with multiple 6” woofers 1’ from the back wall in my living room and they sound very good, way above their price point.

The key issue is speaker placement required only 1 foot from the front wall.

Many speakers can't produce good sound in such location however you tweak the room.

So look for speakers specifically designed to work well so close.  Few if any of these will be huge full-range towers.  That will restrict the bass response you obtain but will please wifey as the boxes will be small.  You can replace the bass using one or more sub-woofers.

Just to confuse you even more, here is a brand of speaker that doesn't get talked about much, but it would work at only 12 inches from the wall and fill you room with massive bass, huge soundstage and great detail. Not taking a lot of floorspace. Goldenear Triton 1.r. 

 

Canadian made Verity.

Thank you so much for all the replies everyone!!  If I don't reply to you specifically, please know that I have read and taken note of your advice.  Thank you :)  With all the replies I just can't reply to everyone individually.  I really appreciate all the kind support and help from the community!!

@auxinput HAHA!!  Thank you so much and I had a chuckle at you going all Columbo, "Just one more thing."  I completely agree that a grain of salt is always needed.  Please know that whatever advice I get, regardless of the source, I will do my own research and listening.  At the end of the day good sound, to a degree, is personal and everyone has their own priorities and preferences.  

I've heard the same about Wilson stuff and I am concerned about it (fatigue).  I believe the newer stuff (with silk domes) are less so, but it is a big concern for me.  I also appreciate the advice on front ported speakers and Revel.  I can't seem to find a Revel dealer in Toronto, but I know there used be several...  I wonder what happened with that.  I will reach out to the distributor about this and see what my options are.  

I also completely understand (and can relate) to your comments about horns.  I am familiar and it isn't my preferred sound.  Based on reading alone, the SF's are likely going to be closer to what I like provided they have at least some grunt (AC/DC is my guilty pleasure).

@grinnell I've very curios about the Reference 3A de Capos.  Their head office/factory isn't too far from me so perhaps I can arrange a visit.  Thank you.

@spenav Yes - I have the book coming today from Amazon :)  I noticed the first sticky on the speaker forum that talks about it.  Honestly, reading though that, I have half a mind to keep my Active 40's (which are at Paradigm getting fixed) and working with some room treatments and EQ.  That may be all I need and be the best use of money.  Though, I keep the same boring look (regulars black boxes) of my speakers.

@havocman I understand where you are coming from (in my case it's a Chord DAVE) and I absolutely agree with the garbage in -> garbage out idea, but I have to be concerned with how the speakers and room work together.  The DAC, after all, doesn't care about my room.

@eugene81 This is a very real consideration, especially based on the other comment about the Duette.  The dealer has a pair so I can listen to them as well and they may be a really good option. 

@rbstehno What I said was, "my room is the biggest small room there is".  It is a big room in size - 16 feet wide, 28 feet deep with 12 foot ceilings.  But it's small because I have sit close to the speakers and really only have 10 feet from my ears to the back wall.  It's a odd space.  My cousin has Totems (I can't recall the models) and, for me, they didn't sing.  But it could be his room, source, or just that model.  They are easy enough to audition so I will likely do so.  Thank you.  The Ushers certainly look nice (much like SF).  They don't have a dealer/distributor in Canada however.  Is there something about them (aside being front ported) that makes a good choice for my space?

@fthompson251 Thank you!!  There is a dealer about 20 minutes away from me.  I will absolutely audition them.  

 

Not sure if your final numbers, check out Fyne audio 500 series.  Downfirong bass helps with placement. Even with price increases the 5 and 7 series lunch way above their price 

There are only a few speakers that will sound good close to the wall.  Do some research for those.  Otherwise, try moving your listening position [and speakers] away from the wall a little at a time.  It does seem that your room is the big problem.

If you are considering Wilson speakers do not buy any with the old tweeter. 

Vandersteen Quatro CT -$17,947.00

- time- and phase-correct loudspeaker
- dual 8” subwoofers 
- attractive form factor (WAF)
- designed to be placed close to a wall

I would be tempted to use some high quality monitor speakers that are sealed or down firing as others have suggested (no rear ports).  Place a rug at the couch and some possible room treatments.  I prefer diffusors rather than panels.  Viscoustic has some nice looking options.  Speakers as mentioned would be the Fyne or the Canadian company Greshman audio.

Sounds like you are in a situation where a mistake can be a frustrating and costly situation.

A couple of things I would suggest. Aim for 92db+ efficiency. You’ll, more often than not, hear detail and nuance wih low volume listening. Going from 88db to 93db didn’t change the overall quality or loudness of the music for me...but it changed the ’ease’ of expression across all volume levels. Very efficient speakers will give you more amplifier choices down the road.

Consider speakers that are as phase coherent as possible. Most 3 way systems don’t image as well as most 2 way systems. 2 way systems don’t image as well as full range. This is a blanket statement and at your price point, the excellent crossover systems will not give much away.

My 88db Salks sounded amazing to me but going to 93db Tannoys made me want to listen to my entire record collection again to see what I’d been missing. I wasn’t prepared for how much of a difference that change made. Both speakers threw out a big and deep soundstage.

One thing you must do: get a big rug. I mean something that swallows the coffee table and both couches in one gulp. I bought a 100% wool Persian rug. It sits on a proper thick (3/8") felt underlay. I have dogs and a high quality rug is almost as indestructible as it is beautiful. But, more importantly, it made a HUGE acoustic improvement. Go big with the rug! Persian, Turkish, Indian...Canadian but get something thick and soft that will offset all the hard and shiny surfaces you have going. Softening the first 1/3 of your listening area will make the most difference.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hello,

I have usually preferred the sound of closed box (infinite baffle) speakers and so now own KLH5 for that reason.  I suggest you should try them.  The imaging is good, very good, for a three-way.  They can be placed reasonably close to the rear wall.  My room is somewhat like yours and I have similar issues, more than half the space is a kitchen/diner with almost no soft furnishings.  I listened to some Klipsch Fortes that sounded so amazing I bought them.. They lasted one week and then had to go back, too shouty by far in my bright room.  The KLH5 bass is very natural, however, be warned, due to room nodes you will get good bass sound in one place and then a completely different sound just a few feet away.  Unless you can treat the room there is not much technical equipment (i.e. none) that can fix that problem in the signal chain.  Sitting close and keeping the volume down might be a good plan after all.  I hope you find this helpful.

and I strongly agree to get a big heavy rug on the floor in front of the speakers.

Nice house.

Goldenear BRX.

Did you check out the Paradigm Personna series?  

With the exception of the Cornwalls, almost none of the speakers suggested (especially the Wilsons) are going to sound good that close to the wall; they all need space behind them to give a decent soundstage; otherwise you will be wasting your money, and wondering why you can't get them to sound good in your room.  You might also consider high quality in-walls like the Joseph Audio, and get away from the wall issue altogether.

+1 ATC!

Its sealed cabinet design ensures excellent timing, useful low frequency output below the cut-off and that the speakers can be placed relatively close to walls without excessive low frequency output or ‘boom’. Both the mid-bass driver and tweeter are handmade by ATC.

SCM20 | ATC Loudspeakers

atc.audio/hi-fi/loudspeakers/classic-series/scm20/

I will also recommend Sonus Faber speakers. Don't worry for HF resolution and details, they have developed new technology DAD (Damped apex dome tweeter) which allows them for very high HF extension without distortion. With that in mind, you will hear plenty of details and resolution. But what you will like the most is the music that will come out of your speakers. Intimate, engaging, pleasant ...

You might consider Harbeth SHL5plus XD, which aren't small standmounts and could use placement a bit away from the wall, but are fantastic and are excellent with the Hegel H390. 

I like your layout - I love open concept and the modern touches.

And I have a different layout but very large open area with 12'ft ceilings and an additional tray that goes up as well as the stairway going to the ground floor.

An area rug and comfortable couch are excellent additions for comfort as well as sound treatments - I also have cellular blinds as window treatments to help manage the sound.

I am a big fan of Sonus faber - I have the Olympica Nova Vs.  Previously I owned the the Sonetto Vs.  

That being said I think you have an excellent pool of speakers - you're real decision is what is the sonic character you like.  Tweeter characteristics, the construction of the cabinet and efficiency of the speaker. 

Enjoy the journey! 

As others have said, where ever you end up with speakers, a large heavy area rug for your seating area would be really important. I would also look to drape the fireplace with a fabric buffer. Think like a heavy curtain material as a valance. Let your wife have at it there. Can change with the seasons as a decorative touch. You could test the affect it has on your sound with a blanket initially. Those hard marble edges that close to the speakers will make upper mids and highs messy. A plant (ficus, fern, ivy) on the right will help diffuse your widow wall on that side.

Speaker comments and recommendations to date are good. I would also look at closed box, or front ported, and would also add in that I think speakers with ribbon tweeters would work well in your space and add some of the sonic experience you are used to with your headphone lineup.  If acceptable to spatial plans, I would also consider moving the seating area a foot or so closer to the kitchen area and widening the speaker placement to compensate. Adjust toward a 10’+ from speakers to open up the sonic space a little more, rather than near field.

I don’t know what the issues would be for Canada, but you may want to look at the Ascend Acoustics Luna. http://ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/luna/luna.html.

Give them a call, they offer in home trail, and are responsive to phone inquiry and are helpful. I am not a super high end audiophile, but find their speakers very natural sounding, accurate, and fast responding. Even their Sierra line would work with 1 foot from front wall and damper foam in the rear port. My listening space in an apartment is awful, no depth, no space behind listening position, 8 ft. ceiling, about 10’ deep so closer to near field, and very close left wall are real issues. Would love maggies cause i love their sound, but I don’t have the space for them, or a lot of speakers that I could really appreciate.

I haven’t heard the Paradigm Active 20’s, but will say that I have heard their passive small speakers, and find that to my ears they only work well in a very narrow volume range. Balance of woofer and tweeter only work well at reference volume or slightly above (maybe 85 to 90db didn’t really push them higher). Terrible at lower volume (the dark sound you referenced, and no coherence ).

 

M y first thought was to echo the earlier recommendation of Larsen loudspeakers which are deliberately engineered to be put up against the wall.   I found them to have a good tonal balance and clarity, but they also had a rather 2 dimensional image.  Being up against the wall, that's not surprising and something I'd consider to be an acceptable compromise as getting rid of the wife isn't an option.

But the Larsen 9 is a $15,000 loudspeaker, and you still haven't bought a power amp yet.  So if you're in that price range, then I heartily recommend the Dutch & Dutch 8c, which is one of the very best loudspeakers I've heard at any price.  Just extraordinary.  They have some of the very most amazing imaging I've EVER heard in any loudspeaker.  They also have a very powerful deep end.   It's a complete system.

The D & D 8c is much more than just a good loudspeaker.  It is a tri-amplified powered loudspeaker with built-in DSP EQ as well as a built-in DAC.   Part of the setup is that it accounts for the distance to the rear wall, and it is also engineered to play with a wall directly behind it.  

You don't say what you use for your source, but if you're strictly digital, then this is the whole system.  You could use a laptop for your digital source and just connect directly to the D & D 8c over the house network and you're done.  No preamp and power amp with cables and such.  Talk about a happy wife!

Note in this photo that the speakers are just a few inches in front of a flat wall behind them.  Looks like your situation to me.    They retail for $12,000, which may sound like a lot, but it's a total system cost.  Remember that most any other loudspeaker will still mean you're buying amplifiers, cables, etc, and all that stuff has to go somewhere.