I bet you can get a pair of used Vandersteen 5's in your budget. Call John Rutan at Audio Connection in New Jersey.
Speaker recomendation
I just bought a second home and the room where the new system will go is quite large (60’x20’) with a wall of windows. I’m looking for a pair of speakers that will be more for listening in position close to the system but that can still move enough air for when we have lots of people over. Budget is about $10-15K for an amp and speakers. I have a Moon 340i but fear it doesn’t have enough power to move the speakers I’ll get. I was thinking about Golden Ear reference but my wife and I are more classical and jazz listeners and these are better for rock? Suggestions appreciated!
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@soundermn @vingard and others who have slammed @audiotroy for offering his opinions. I just got off the phone with Dave and had a very nice and friendly hour-long chat. I've experienced most if not all of the NYC/tri-state area audio dealers and I assure all of you, Dave is not one of them. After spending 30 minutes on the phone with him, he actually directed me to a speaker he thought was on sale on Agon! As someone who is trying to go and audition speakers with limited time, there is knowledge that I can't possibly expect to glean because I don't have the time to acquire it. When you've been doing something as long as Dave and Troy have (combined 70 years of experience) in a hobby that is incredibly subjective, their opinions are valid, and they deserve a right to have them and post them freely, unless of course there are clear rules against that sort of thing. However, @soix was probably right to call Dave out for bashing his recommendation, maybe that wasn't cool, but I can also respect that Dave feels that the AZ's aren't offering as much value as what he's recommending. I will give Dave my time (although maybe not my hard-earned money) because I think he will open my ears up to some things I wouldn't have otherwise heard. Cheers to all and thanks for being passionate about great sound. ~Lance |
I recently heard the Vandersteen Quattro Wood CT at a friend’s home and I can say with very little reservation that it was the best sound I have heard to date. Not heard the brands like Wilson or other comparable exotic brands but the experience listening to these speakers was boderline religious. They were paired with his spanky new Audio Research VSi75 integrated and a very basic Bluesound Node2 streamer running through an Ayre Codex. Simply breathtaking and within OP’s budget. |
@donvito101 Exactly. Americans make nearly everything in Asia or Mexico. Very good value. Definitely the last place I would look for SOTA but for value “American Brand” - the stuff made in Asia is by far the best value. If you read above the OP found Dynaudio and Spendor to be too expensive by a long way - 5K...so I am simply trying to help in consideration of the OP needs. Used Thiel would be great value. All my two channel gear is almost all new and all made entirely in the West. UK and USA. Not outsourced. However, I pay a big premium for that pleasure....at least double the price. |
@tomic601 I've listened to Dynaudio Contour's and Spendor D9's recently and liked them both a lot for different reasons but feel they are very over-priced for what they are, to the tune of $5K over-priced. I'm hot to audition some Vandersteen's, mostly the 3's. I'm starting to realize that what I should be going for is really good sound at around 12' from where the speakers will be, and not worry as much about filling the room which would compromise everything. I will certainly look into conditioning the room (drapes, dampening, etc.) but the first is getting a suitable system. @audiotroy what has happened here is unfortunate. You seemed to have caused a flame throw festival when many just wanted to be helpful. I see you are a Gershman dealer and I personally like my AvantGarde's a lot, so I'll assume you try to sell value-based products whenever possible. I guess there is a fine line that is not to be crossed here, which stands to reason. @shadorne as for my personal taste, what else would you like to know? 50% of my listening is definitely 50's jazz. The rest is split between classic rock, brazilian, afro-cuban and classical. For playback, I'll use a high quality DAC with some form of rasberry (I have the DigiOne Allo at home and love it) coupled with Roon. I have vinyl in my apartment with a Rega deck but don't plan on having vinyl in this new system as this one needs to be focused on convenient playback and integrating my wife's collection and mine or else she will toss me on my ass. |
thank you all for the detailed responses. i wasn't receiving updates via email and didn't realize there was this much detail in this thread that I started. I APOLOGIZE! @Aalenik I'm listening to the AZC's this weekend! @shadorne in terms of the type of speaker, I'm much more interested in quality sound than aesthetics. A traditional box that sounds great without all the "luxury" fit and finish appeals to me much more. I have a wife, but it so happens she is also looking for great sound more than outward looking appeal. |
I believe @audiotroy 's intent is largely misunderstood here. I visited his showroom recently with a "meager" $5k budget, and he spent a solid couple of hours discussing various options with me. He has an incredible amount of gear on display and available to audition - much more so than other high-end audio retailers in the NY/NJ area. I found the experience to be a step-up from my visits to other stores in the area. And yes, he is able to readily discuss the pros and cons of gear that he carries or has carried/worked with previously, which is both informative and beneficial for a consumer with limited exposure to the numerous brands and products on the market. At the end of the day, we’re all grown-up enough to be able to make up our own minds about what we like or don’t like - nobody’s forcing us to do anything. If you don’t like someone’s opinion on a piece of audio gear, just keep scrolling brother. We’re not trying to change the world here. |
Hemlotech, we are very well qualified to talk about speakers in this price range we display Dali Epicon at $14-20k, the Legacy Focus and Aeris, the Paradigm Persona, ATC, Quad, Cabasse, Rethem, Elac,Kef Reference and Blades. In the past we have sold, many other brands of loudspeakers. We talk lot about Legacy because few people have heard them, and they offer incredible value for the money. How many speakers that are affordable and offer all of these advantages: 1: Managable size 2: High power handling 3: High SPL 4: High efficiency 92db 5: Prodigious bass 18hz 6: Works with tubes and solid state 7: Attractive cabinetry with custom finishes. 8: Optional bass amp 9: Optional Dac/Room Correction processor/and active crossover. 10: Very clean top end and midrange with German made Heil AMT drivers 11: Very clean custom silk/graphite midrange driver 12: Big soundstage and a liquid midrange. 13: Affordable price to performance ratio: Focus Signatures $7k, larger Focus $11-13k. The tonal balance and deep bass and musical performance means that the speaker is very listenable and well suited to many people's tastes. We know of only the Golden Ear Reference and the Tekton's offer some of these advantages which is one of the reasons that we love the line. Are they for everyone? No they are not but then again, what product is? Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Personally I don't care much for Klipsch but the Klipschhorns would sound great and the amp you have would probably drive it fine, just make sure you put them in the corners. I can recommend the speakers that I use, but I hate it when people do that. Btw listen to the dynaudio contour 60 b4 you buy if you can. |
I hope we have not lost the OP, but.......if he is still reading this, my questions would be what does he use in his 1st home ( his bio indicates he has / had Gershman Acoustics AGs ) ? He knows something about sounds and music listening, and is probably asking due to the layout and acoustics of this new listening space. So, to the OP. Can you speak about the system in your 1st home and how you use it / enjoy it ? As far as dealers are concerned, Audiogon allows it, so lets all live nicely together. We really are a passionate bunch here on the "Gon. |
@audiotroy has driven the OP out of the room. So sad. What I notice is that Dave and Troy do this constantly. If you push back on them, the posts get longer and longer, as if they can win the argument by using more words. AudioTroy does offer good advice and information some times. And they offer positive feedback on competitor products... but alway qualified. "they are good, but..." and there is always that "but". Legacy speakers may be the best speakers ever. But, my opinion will always be tainted by this sad poster and his habit of derailing every post he participates in. Why do these guys think it's okay to argue with everyone in almost every post? Face it, @audiotroy, Legacy is good. But not perfect for every situation. Same with my Revel F208s. They are great in my room with my gear. No "buts" about it... except to say, But they are not perfect in every situation. Same is true for all the recommendations above, including Legacy. So get off your high horse and accept that there are different tastes, different rooms and different situations. And have a little self awareness that your loud, wordy, condescending posts don't help anyone... and usually end up crushing the discussion rather than helping it. |
No offense, but it does seem like AudioTroy is "selling", rather than advising. That being said, The Legacy Focus is a very nice-sounding loudspeaker. However, it is not in the same class as the Acoustic Zen Crescendo, which is an outstanding speaker and one of the few I covet. If your choice is between those two.... well, you should hear them both and make your own decision, but I think I've made my feelings clear. A better comparison would be the Crescendo vs. the Legacy Aeris. THAT would be a tough decision! |
I don't mind @Audiotroy weighing in on these forums. In the past he's brought up some good points and comparisons on equipment that he does seem to have experience with. As mentioned earlier, take it with a grain of salt the same you'd take anyone else's opinion. It seems no different than anyone else replying to these threads with what they own or have experience with. And I would hope with the options available to him, he would choose to sell reputable gear. As for bashing, as long as there is a reason given for why he feels that way, I'd like to be given the opportunity to decider that too. |
Keoliphant, thank you so much for the kind words really appreciate it. As per the PS Audio stuff, we haven't heard it or tested it vs our setups so we can't really comment on how it actually performs. The point we make is that with the Monos at $15k plus the preamp at $4-7k plus two power cables and interconnects gets you a stone's throw from the T+A HV 3100 integrated which is an absolutely amazing sounding product. We would love to test the Stereo amp and preamp and see how it compares to our other lines and if it is really good we would most likely sign up to sell their gear. Our past PS experience the Perfect wave dac was okay so we haven't really formed a pro vs con experience about PS. Akaim that is not really the point sure a set of Cerwin Vegas will play loud but the size and power of that kind of speaker will give you is not the same as the wave launch of a much physically larger speaker in a big room, the larger the room the larger the loudspeaker needs to be, hence our recommendations. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
There are some really sensitive souls on here. Personally, I appreciate hearing all feedback/opinions. Good or bad, dealer or consumer. We all process sound differently so one person's prized audio component/speaker is another person's trash. I have picked up the phone and spoken to audiotroy - several times. He is quite knowledgeable with system matching and has provided me valuable input/feedback on all ideas - whether he carries the product line or not. On top of that, he's never been pushy or attempted to close the deal. That's a hell of a lot better than my local dealers. If he carries my next speaker, he'll be my first call to work a deal. Life's too short to get your undies in a bundle over this shit. Enjoy the music and the hunt for your perfect system. I love my PS Audio BHK setup - if audiotroy were to post that it's inferior or overpriced - who cares, it's my prize. Just my 2-cents. |
Some of these comments are really 'amateur'. Would you buy a car sight unseen just because a bunch of people you don't even know let alone trust tell you what to buy? Find a good hi store and listen to some different options. Even if you don't have one where you live, for that kind of investment it's worth a drive. I got back into hifi about 4 months ago and I'm already on my second pair of speakers. Fortunately my dealer offers a 100% credit as long as you buy something for 2 x the cost of the original purchase. Not sure where you live but his store is in Champaign, IL...Glenn Poors |
any mid-fi to high-end 3-way speakers with 15" woofers and a bass reflex port, will suffice. I’ve tried other variations such as smaller 2-way boutique speakers with smaller 8", 10", 12" speakers and no bass port, and no midrange- they make the highs sharper and more in your face, but at a severe loss of bass or midrange response. and you get tired of listening to them. the 3-way with bass reflex just does everything well, and ends up being a smoother, fuller sound, and bigger soundstage. even going from a 15" box 3-way w/reflex, to a 12" box 3-way w/reflex, sacrificed too much sound. the bass was noticeably attenuated i.e. lossy. the 3-way w/15" and reflex is hard to beat overall, it's a forgotten benchmark that still holds true today. |
Hi OP, Hope you are still around. I had a similar space, 30' by 25' open kitchen and family room with a 12' ceiling. I bought a used Salk HT3 right / left / center and 15" Sub for about $6k used and run it with a couple of Crown Class D amps with tons of power (almost 700 watts at 4 ohms) and it fills the room nicely and would be at the low end of your budget. Salk makes fantastic looking and fantastic sounding speakers. If you can find some on the used market they are hard to beat. Of course for your budget, if you go the Class D route, you can probably afford to have Jim build the speakers for you and pick out your own veneers. And no, I don't have any relationship with Jim Salk other than enjoying the way my speakers look and sound. Good luck with your journey. |
My main room is 16x32, roof about 10 ft. I have 2 preamps & amps and 4 speakers in this room. One pair focused at this computer, the other focused on a bed where i frequently spend the night, listening to music and sleeping. It seems to be a better plan than having one bigger amp and 2 bigger speakers. Costs less, and is more flexible/controllable. Almost FTM, have more preamps/amps and speakers for the kitchen and for the bathroom, never miss a beat, nothing like a hot bath with Beethoven. |
Ricredi I can assure you the T+A gear is the real deal. I am not surprised that you didn't like the setup, the Magico A3 are a much smaller sounding speaker with a much more reserved presentation than the more upbeat Monitor's you use. We have not heard the A3 but to our ears previous Magico's always sounded a bit boring. Bircorobit, Harbeths are lovely speakers that many people prize for their natural midrange and musical presentation, however, even the larger 40 are still not physically large enough to provide proper spl, and deep enough bass for this really large room. The golden rule is the larger the physical volume of the room the larger the loudspeaker needs to be. Likely good canidates, used Kef Blades, Genesis, Legacy Focus or Aeris, used Wilson Sasha, Wilson X1,Dali Epicon 8, look for large 5-6 foot tall speakers, multiple woofers, and 90 plus sensitivity. Tls49, we didn't like Legacy either, the older models with the yellow Kevlar midrange and the original ribbon tweeter were okay good loud party speakers, the newer models with the much better graphite composite midrange cone, and German Heil tweeer array are really good speakers. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Meanwhile, back at The Topic... IMHO, if I had a room that big and $10-15K for amps and speakers, I would probably try this: I would call John Strohbeen at Ohm Acoustics, and ask if the Walsh 5000 would be able to work in that large space. If so, that's $6600 for the speakers. If your space is too big for them, John will tell you the truth. They work well with reflective surfaces, so you may not have to do as much to treat the room and those windows as you might with more directional speakers. They also have several frequency band output level controls, which might be especially helpful in your situation. For an amp, lots of clean power is the key. I would go for the Arion Audio HS-500 monoblocks, which are tube/Class D hybrid designs that output 500 watts each. I have heard them with both Nola speakers and Magicos, and they are great amps, IMHO. I had the RS-500 monoblocks (with solid state input stage) for a while and thought they were also pretty good. But the hybrids are better sounding and within your budget. That's another $6300 for the pair. That leaves you a bit left over for some decent power and speaker cables. YMMV, of course, but both of these products are sold direct with in-home trial periods. |
Audiotroy doesn't bother me, because I take his recommendations with a grain of salt. If he recommends something that sparks my interest, I go listen to the component with my owns ears. I did that for speakers that he recommended and recently with T+A electronics. I listened to the T+A PA 3100 HV driving Magico A3s. Based on that experience I don't think the PA 3100 HV is anything special. Listening always puts everything into perspective. |
Retired now, but worked in the audio industry for over 25 years. Remember that average speaker sensitivity was 88-90db, with 85db considered to be low and 95db being high. The industry average may have shifted, I don't know, however the relationship of amp power and speaker sensitivity to achieve volume and dynamic range remains the same. During that time, I was fortunate to be exposed to so many different products and setups. Heard Legacy speakers a few times and had a friend with a pair. Did they sound ok, sure, but never seem to be special, the goose bumps or making hair stand up thing. Some other listening experiences were impressionable and hard to forget. And please understand, this is just my opinion. As far as the "having a bigger hammer" thing, I'm sure that appeals to many, but not me. I prefer quality over quantity. I never get focused on bass and treble, like so many do. I want the best midrange with a good balance of everything else. Basically, a speaker that doesn't have a strong point, but does everything well. Absolutely, the OP needs to take a listen, but to as many speakers as he can. And finally a thought for the day. “I must go in, the fog is rising.” - Emily Dickinson And a joke for the day. What did the egomaniac say when leaving his friend's house? Don't tell me goodbye after I say goodbye to you!! |
Tls any speaker that is 91 or 92 db is efficient, sure it may not be 96db or 101 db but that is still a high efficiency design compared with most of the industry's 85-89 db figures. Looked up the Athenas, although that speaker is more electrically efficient, you have one woofer with a much more limited amount of deep bass, the greater the room size the more bass energy you would need. The Legacy uses 2 12 inch long throw woofers with a 3db down point of 18hz so in reality would be much better suited to the task of driving this room. The OP should see if he can locate a pair and take a listen. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
@audiotroy "No problem we sell some of the best a/v products on the market and have
tested and sold more brands of a/v products than many, so we don’t have
to worry about saving you from yourself." I don't even know what that means. We are very much aware of what brands you sell, though, since you've taken every opportunity to list them in each posting. |
Yup. Ain’t nuthin’ getting in here. I recently sent a coffee mug to a friend who works with some, um, intellectually-challenged coworkers. It said, "I can explain it to you, I just can’t understand it for you." Like I said before, I’m done so I’ll just let Pink Floyd lead me out... "The bleeding hearts and artists make their stand And when they’ve given you their all Some stagger and fall, after all it’s not easy Banging your heart against some mad bugger’s wall." |
Sorry boys, don’t see it. Soix facts is facts. A product is either growing in the market or shrinking. Many people view a consensus on a product’s performance as one way to validate or weed out what they are going to purchase or look at. Sure it is easy to say go look at x y or z that doesn’t mean the product is good or practical or will work for the poster. Never said the AZ speakers or products were bad, and WE WERE DEALERS! So we had actual experience with their products and how they compared, we also heard the AZ speakers at a couple of shows as well for the Cresendos. In our opinion the Crecendos are decent speakers but I posed the question if you were currently in the market for a new set of speakers and at the $25k price point would you rush to find a AZ dealer or would you be looking for a Wilson, Magico, Rockport, KEF, Paradigm, Vandy? You may think that we have an over in flated view of our products, the facts is that there are many respected dealers with the same products we have throughtout the country and most of our products are highly rated in the press, but if you managed to read what we said about press you would understand that point. We were also accussed of bashing Belles, on the contrary we reported the facts that we did have the previous series of products and they were not remarkable, and that we did not hear the Aria. We did point out that we have a very similar sounding highly rated tube integrated that may sound as good or better which sells for $600 less with a similar type of DNA, features and build quality. Again Soix that is not being arrogant look at what we actually said: Do you want to know of an Aria compettitor that sounds just like an Aria yet costs $600.00 less? It is called a Unison Reserach Primo an 80 watt tube solid state hybrid amp from Italy any of you guys like to do a shootout in our shop with an Aria. By the way, never said the Aria wasn’t good we haven’t heard one, just the last series which was nincely made but didn’t wow us. DID THAT SAY THAT THE UNISON SMOKES OR IS BETTER than the Aria, NO WE DIDN"T, we said sounds like an Aria, the Aria is known for a warm tube like presentation, guess what the Unison is a hybrid with tubes and it does indeed sound warm and tuby, and if we are not mistaken the Aria sells for $3k while the Unison is $2.4k and the Unison is 80 watts vs the Belles 75 watts, so these two pieces should be very competitive. I hardly see the Belles boys ever talk about their experience’s vs other comparable products vs a Peachtree or a Unison or a shootout vs the Naim Atom. We did read the Aria review from the UK and it was a very good review. As per the Othergreg, Wow, just wow. And that’s just one of the misguided attempts to "justify" his postings. @audiotroy, I appreciate your attempt to save me from myself, but you may just want to sit the rest of this one out. No problem we sell some of the best a/v products on the market and have tested and sold more brands of a/v products than many, so we don’t have to worry about saving you from yourself. As per the PR GUY the first rule of PR is no press is bad press. for all of you guys complaining of our bad behavior, for disparaging products we don’t sell, when if you actually read the post we never said either of the two products were bad, we get calls from people from all over the country that appreciate what a dealer with 30 plus years of experience and the fact that we sell many of the best products in one location means we know our products can bring to the table. We assist way more people than you guys know, it is facinating how if you don’t agree And lastly Soix, It’s apparent to me now that @audiotroy is so arrogant and enamored of his own products that he actually doesn’t see how what he’s doing is wrong, or he’s so hell-bent on selling his products here that he doesn’t care. Either way, it’s bad. Soix, It is not wrong to recommend a product that you are enamoured with especially when there are many other people who agree. Arrogant would be saying tha the Legacy’s are better than everything else did you ever find us saying that? We laid out the facts why this speaker MAY be good for the OP but we also said that he has to like them. We put it to you this way at least with Legacy the OP may be able to hear a pair how easy is it to hear the AZ? and now to address your last point: nd you think I’M the one missing the point here? SERIOUSLY??? You’re once again comparing speakers I recommended to the OP in a relatively negative light to the speakers you recommended here AND SELL!!! You should not be expressing negative opinions on other products and recommendations in any way while you’re promoting your own products here at the same time. PERIOD!!! It’s a pure conflict of interest that makes you look unethical and undermines your credibility here. Please Soix grow up, all dealers and owners of products endorse what they sell or own, the fact that unless the OP flys over to our Store and listens to and then purchases a set of Legacy’s WE AREN"T SELLING ANYTHING! Go back to what we wrote about why we endorse the Legacy’s and please let us know how many affordable speaker lines offer these attributes? We know of Tekton, Golden Ear and that is pretty much it. You also miss the other parts of this converation which is how easily can the OP hear the product? Will the company be in business 5 or 10 years from now and how easy will it be to move and service the product. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
"Soix, way too many people have over inflated opinions of products that are mearly okay, that they for whatever reason they personally love." Wow, just wow. And that's just one of the misguided attempts to "justify" his postings. @audiotroy, I appreciate your attempt to save me from myself, but you may just want to sit the rest of this one out. |
http://pbnaudio.com/speakers/montana-speakers/master-reference-iii-loudspeaker Go full range :-) From its maker Good Listening Peter |
