Speaker recomendation

@lgoler After your 30th post you can take your training wheels off and they send you a book on sarcasm.  Happy Friday!!!!

Oh c’mon @lgoler, I thought that was my best one yet!

Not true.  I heard them on YouTube at a show once. 

Non-dealer disclaimer: I don’t sell or know nuthin’

@Igoler Actives??? This oughtta gitt’er done...

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8i1h0-atc-scm-100aslt-full-range?refsource=hifishark

These things poop active Dynaudios. 

@Igoler I’m truly sorry that this has sidetracked your thread, and no I have no desire to continue this argument. In fact, I hate that I have to do it but some things are just worth fighting for. You call it unrelated, but you’ve got 28 posts here so maybe it doesn’t mean as much to you as it does to many of us who have participated on and benefitted from this site for many years. But I do find it somewhat ironic you’re singling me out when I’m the one trying to preserve the integrity of this site while others seek to shamelessly turn it into a marketing vehicle for their own business.

BTW, people recommend things they don’t or haven’t owned here all the time, and I have heard the Crescendos, like audiotroy, at shows and also in a friend’s system. I have no vested interest in whether you buy the Crescendos or not -- I was just trying to potentially help you by recommending something maybe you hadn’t thought of that sounded like it could meet all your stated needs. And I’m not defending the speakers as much as I am my ability to make honest recommendations here without some retailer coming in and undermining it to push his own products. If you don’t see the problem or danger in that, then maybe I was just wasting my (and other people’s) time here. Guess we’ll see. Anyway, best of luck in finding what you’re looking for. Peace out.

@audiotroy I unfortunately do not own Crescendos and I’m neither hurt nor offended, but thanks for your concern. They were, however, a TAS Top Pick in Loudspeakers over $10,000, right next to the Legacy Aeris BTW. So let’s get our alternative facts straight, shall we?

"We mentioned that the AZ products were okay, not good not bad"

Exactly! But what you’re also saying is that IN YOUR SUBJECTIVE OPINION they are inferior to what you are recommending here AND SELL!!! Why does this continue to not penetrate? This is not fact, but you using your own inherently biased opinion to belittle another recommendation in favor of one that YOU SELL.

"What we said about the Zen products WE WERE DEALERS! So we actually have first hand knowlege of how their products sound and in all areas as well AS HOW THEY ACTUALLY COMPARE TO THE COMPETITION"

But as you said previously, you didn’t carry the Crescendos and that your opinion of them was from hearing them at shows. Not sure how this makes you an expert on how they compare to the competition that -- what was that again? -- oh yes, YOU SELL.

"So Soix, you think we are bashing them because we don’t sell their products you are wrong. WHAT MAKES OUR OPINIONS VALUABLE is actual experience."

I never said you were bashing them, those were the words of the OP. Opinions are not facts no matter how much experience they’re based on, so using yours to marginalize other recommendations or products to influence others to make products YOU SELL sound better is dirty pool. Full stop. But yes, we can certainly agree that your opinions can be valuable -- especially for YOU.

"Again answer the question if most people here had $25k to purchase a set of speakers, how many would be seeking out a set of Crecendo’s to audition, vs Wilson, Focal, Rockport, Paradigm, Martin Logan etc."

That’s precisely why people come here to get supposedly honest and unbiased feedback. They don’t come here to have a biased retailer tell them a recommendation from another member is not worth $25k. Incidentally, my original recommendation was (and continues to be) for a nice demo pair of Crescendo mklls selling (on US Audio Mart) for about $12k because they are in his price range and seem to meet all his needs. .

"If you think that we are China bashers we are not"

Rrrrrriiiiiiiiight. I never said anything about China (or "Jighna" either).

"Your comment on the Aeris being a contender for a shootout is valid from a price perspective but sonically, a well set up set of Focus come really close to the magic of a much more expensive set of speakers"

Again, I never said anything about the Aeris. Another nice plug though.

"Again ask yourself the question, if you were going to purchase at full retail would that product be on your radar, if the answer is yes, then we humbly beg for your forgiveness, if the answer is no for $25k that speaker wouldn’t be on my short list than lets see who is right?"

The answer is yes, and apology accepted -- no begging necessary. We already know your short list since you keep pushing it here. It’s not about you or me being "right," which is just a stupid concept here. It’s about helping the OP make the best decision possible for his situation and tastes and not discouraging the exploration of other honest recommendations to your potential benefit.

I’ll just leave with a bit of honest advice for YOU audiotroy. There’s no problem with you expressing your positive opinions about your products here (although it is quite tiresome), and if your products are really that good people will seek them out and buy them. But using your inherently biased opinions to further say less than positive things about other recommendations or products THAT YOU DON’T SELL is at the very least fishy and likely unethical (and it just looks bad bad BAD), and if you continue to do so you’ll get even more pushback here and possibly irreparably damage your reputation and credibility here. It sounds like you try hard to honestly help people at your shop, so don’t undermine that by unnecessarily shooting yourself in the foot here. Happy Friday all.

@Igoler

"However, @soix was probably right to call Dave out for bashing his recommendation, maybe that wasn't cool, but I can also respect that Dave feels that the AZ's aren't offering as much value as what he's recommending."

THIS IS PRECISELY THE CRUX OF THE PROBLEM HERE.  I really don't mean to prolong this, but the main problem keeps getting swept aside under the guise of audiotroy's "advice."  It's NOT that he's pushing his own brands, which as others noted he's free to do here (although I'll note he does it much more frequently and forcefully than any other manufacturers or retailers here).  It's specifically that they also berate or marginalize other recommendations and/or competitive products.  Whether it's altruistic or not is completely irrelevant.  Look at your case right here:

"but I can also respect that Dave feels that the AZ's aren't offering as much value as what he's recommending."

BINGO.  RIGHT THERE IS THE PROBLEM.  When Dave is pushing his products here he shouldn't be sharing what he "FEELS" (or anything else for that matter) about another recommendation or product if he doesn't sell it.  Look how he just potentially affected your perception of my recommendation versus the product HE SELLS.  It's a pure conflict of interest.  And in this case his "FEELINGS" were based on hearing the Crescendos in a show setting.  What???  Tell you what, here's what a couple respected and veteran reviewers said of these speakers when auditioned in their own systems with their own equipment:

Dick Olsher from Absolute Sound
"The Crescendo comes about as close to being an ideal resistive load as one can expect from a box speaker. It’s the sort of dream load every pentode amp would appreciate.
Acoustic Zen’s Robert Lee has crafted a magnificent transmission-line speaker, truly a perfectionist labor of love. The Crescendo is eminently musical and supremely well-integrated from top to bottom. It certainly pushed of all my emotional buttons and is currently my favorite box speaker under $30k. Make no mistake about it: The Crescendo is a fantastic value at its asking price. An enthusiastic five-star recommendation!"

Or Dave Clark from Positive Feedback:
"As a side note, the Crescendos did arrive with a complete set of measurements that are rather stunningly flat and overall quite excellent in all respects being very reminiscent of how the Tetons measure after the DEQX 'treatment'. Of which all points to Robert having done it right.
The Crescendos are a speaker that will open a door to what is in your music. They are a true audio "tool" to not only hear and see how the music was recorded, but to realize what is going on in your system. They will reveal things about your music and system that you might not want to know—they are honest and pure. For the $16000 you get an amazingly well-thought and a beautiful loudspeaker (fit and finish are superb) that competes with other designs costing several times their more 'affordable' price. How Robert does it, I have no idea as these are a true assault in defining a full-range SOTA loudspeaker. I loved my short time with the speakers and found them a wonderful window into my music. Kudos to Robert and the AZ team."

But then there's that DaveTroy "FEELS" the Crescendos aren't offering as much value as what he's recommending due to his hearing them at a couple audio shows.  That'd be suspect enough as a response from any regular member, but that HE'S SELLING what he's recommending in these circumstances MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE HERE.  Look at other reputable manufacturers and retailers here such as atmasphere, pbnaudio, audioconnection, and note how they NEVER, EVER, downplay another product or recommendation in favor of one of their own products despite undoubtedly having strong opinions.  They know better.  They have class.  They respect the mission of this site and they do it right. 

So here's the thing -- that I at all felt the need to have to come back on here and defend and support my prior recommendation AGAINST THE WORDS OF A RETAILER pushing his own product while detracting from mine is what makes audiotroy's behavior detrimental and a serious threat to this site.  (Your own statement shows that his words affected your opinion of my recommendation).  They may try to cloak their sales tactics under the guise of providing "honest" opinions, but the damage is still being done.  

Last thought.  Some people may still be willing to sweep audiotroy's tactics under the rug because they sometimes provide some seemingly unbiased information and help.  But if they can continue to get away with criticizing and undermining other's recommendations here, what will this site become when other retailers start doing the same thing here?  Will it still seem helpful then?  It's a slippery slope, and I for one sincerely hope this stops here and now before it gets further out of hand and significantly undermines the usefulness and purpose of this site.  Once again -- Peace out. 

Yup. Ain’t nuthin’ getting in here. I recently sent a coffee mug to a friend who works with some, um, intellectually-challenged coworkers. It said, "I can explain it to you, I just can’t understand it for you." Like I said before, I’m done so I’ll just let Pink Floyd lead me out...

"The bleeding hearts and artists make their stand
And when they’ve given you their all
Some stagger and fall, after all it’s not easy
Banging your heart against some mad bugger’s wall."

@audiotroy It’s like talking to a wall. Somebody else wanna help me here? This has nothing to do with my "opinion" of you or anything else here. It has everything to do with documented facts and your unethical behavior on this site. I apologize to the OP that this discussion has taken this turn, but there is a serious violation by a retailer going on here that cannot be left unaddressed. It’s apparent to me now that @audiotroy is so arrogant and enamored of his own products that he actually doesn’t see how what he’s doing is wrong, or he’s so hell-bent on selling his products here that he doesn’t care. Either way, it’s bad.

"One of the reasons why we post is the complete lack of understanding that many of the forum writters seem to lack."

This is the essence of the arrogance. You know better and other opinions are wrong and need to be corrected by asserting that the product YOU SELL is better. Case in point...

"Do you want to know of an Aria compettitor that sounds just like an Aria yet costs $600.00 less? It is called a Unison Reserach Primo an 80 watt tube solid state hybrid amp from Italy any of you guys like to do a shootout in our shop with an Aria. By the way, never said the Aria wasn’t good we haven’t heard one, just the last series which was nincely made but didn’t wow us."

That you would say this after the discussion to this point shows you just don’t get it. And again in my case earlier...

"The Acoustic Zen are okay speakers and were never worth their original price point we heard them on numerous shows. Also they are not 96db efficient so they are not going to play as loudly as easily to fill up a large room as the Legacy’s."

When you write that immediately following my recommendation for the AZs you are disparaging another member’s recommendation and a competitor’s product in favor one THAT YOU SELL. It matters not one bit that you think you’re right or that you may be helping the OP make a better decision. As a retailer promoting your products here you inherently give up the right to criticize other products as several other reputable retailers here duly respect.

Ok, I’m done here. I can’t make it any more clear except to say, @audiotroy if you continue to behave this way and speak negatively of other products and recommendations in favor of your own products you will incite the ire of many more members here and irreparably damage what’s left of your reputation here. Peace out.

@audiotroy -- No, that doesn’t help me understand "your points" at all. It’s an irrelevant and incoherent rambling -- and of course containing yet another ad for the products you carry -- that is a sorry excuse of a defense of an indefensible and harmful act here on Audiogon. Where to start?

"We hear way too many times a recommendation based on some weird product from a company that has not really received the kinds of universal accolades that a product of the price range should receive.
That is not to say that the review based world is purly objective but when a companies products are so rarely shown or reviewed or owned or raved by many reviewers it has a lot to say about the company."

Well I certainly can’t argue with this, mainly beacause I have no idea what it means. But it has nothing to do with what you did here.

"Soix you miss the point, there are other posters who have talked about products we don’t sell and we tell them sure go check them out like the Focal Sopras, and the Magico A3."

Again, this has nothing to do with what you did here.

"As per recommending Legacy, at least they have displaying dealers not that many but if you look at their dealer page at least they have some decent dealers that someone may be able to actually drive to, please let me know how many displaying dealers throughout the country have AZ loudspeakers available for demo?
Soix if you noticed we said the AZ speakers were okay that doesn’t mean we think they are terrrible but ask yourself if the speakers were new would you shell out $25k for a set and even at $12k are there perhaps better alternatives."

And you think I’M the one missing the point here? SERIOUSLY??? You’re once again comparing speakers I recommended to the OP in a relatively negative light to the speakers you recommended here AND SELL!!! You should not be expressing negative opinions on other products and recommendations in any way while you’re promoting your own products here at the same time. PERIOD!!! It’s a pure conflict of interest that makes you look unethical and undermines your credibility here. 

@falconquest -- That I don’t like that audiotroy pushes his products here is irrelevant and you miss the point entirely. The Legacys could be a fine recommendation and I’ve never said or implied otherwise, but again that’s not the point here.

Hey @audiotroy -- It’s one thing for you to come on here and try to peddle your wares. I don’t personally like it and find it quite tiring, but okay, it is what it is and I just put up with it. But when you start disparaging honest product recommendations from other members -- like mine above for the AZ Crescendos -- by using your own personal opinions (based on audio shows no less) and to push your own products, that is NOT COOL AT ALL!!! The purpose of this site is NOT to be an advertising vehicle for your business and for you to be able to discourage the sale of competitors’ products based on your personal and biased opinions. In fact, that’s the exact OPPOSITE of what this site is all about and the value that it brings. 

There's a very nice demo pair of Acoustic Zen Crescendo IIs here now for $12k.  They are an easy load so should work fine with your current amp, but they will certainly reward you for upgrades down the road.  Best of luck.