Not sure what other equipment you have, but on the pre-owned market look at Axiom, Triangle, Revel, Audio Physic floor standing speakers.
Speaker choice without need for deep bass
I am slowly moving away from large full size/full range speakers and migrate to smaller 2 way.
This effect is caused by me adding a great 18" subwoofer to the system, and later playing with the 'main' speakers (and main amplifier) relieved of the 50 Hz and below heavy lifting duties (low pass to sub with own dedicated amp, high pass to main amplifier/main speakers).
So the big full range speakers were replaced with large bookshelf. Everything is fine, except that I have a HUGE (by volume and area) open main listening room. But now the 2 way speaker with one 6" woofer just CANNOT 'move enough air' to listen to high level music without starting to distort.
Therefore the next speaker design I want to try is a still small speaker but with two low/midrange drivers simply to be able to play at 'concert level' without distortion; but still no need for very low bass.
Since still in the trial and error and validation phase of my 'concept', any small 2 (if needed 3) way candiate must also fit the VERY low price (used) criteria ($1,000 or less).
What comes to mind?
Note: I had also inquired about the KEF LS50 for example, but was told they (and similar speakers) would suffer from the 'just not enough square inches' issue required for very large rooms.
49 responses Add your response
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650153098-quad-l-1-bookshelfmonitor-speakers/images/5344497/
Quad S-2 over there as well. I had the S5 tower and they image beautifully. Still regret selling that speaker. |
Here are a couple LCR designs I think worth considering given their extra midwoof drivers, and I think both offer a return policy. Best of luck. https://ascendacoustics.com/products/cmt-340se2-mini-tower-pair https://soundapproach.com/rbh-55-i-2-x-5-25-impression-2-way-lcr-speaker-single.html |
Have you considered, that maybe you are moving the wrong direction from the best sound you will be able to achieve for your budget? I immediately thought of some great choices of two way speakers in the $10K to $20K range. But absolutely not in the $1K. If you have a budget system and want to get the best and coherent sound (matching a two way with and 18" subwoofer is going to be hard)...I’m just guessing this is not a $12K subwoofer. Then your very best bet is a normal dynamic tower speaker. You are going to get the best, most coherent sound from thing. There are dozens of companies producing very good speakers, especially used. B&W, Sonus Faber, Focal, DynAudio... etc. |
@ ghdprentice: "wrong direction"? Maybe. But my testing/experience showed significant improvement in almost all relevant categories when I added the powered 18" sub (replaceing two meager 10", and then my great Velodyne DD15, now in use in the 2nd system), and later 'cut' the main speaker/receiver off at 50 Hz. Note: the main speakers were B&W Nautilis 804. Having 'no need' for very deep bass frees up the main speaker design from huge cabinets with big volume to facilitate the huge woofers and the required massive air volume. Ergo: smaller, less complex speakers are possible. And that has already been accomplished. And I could rest. BUT, if I want to listen at elevated (call it 'live') souid pressure levels in my main room, it seem a single 6" inch low/mid even cut a 80 Hz is 'getting it done'. Aside from that: price has obviouisly nothing to do with the issues, since that is relative. If the budget were $10k, your (potential) answer would be "you need $100k to get even close to a decent system", just when the next guy chimes in "no way you can put a real quality system together for $1000k (thats a cool million). And yes, the 1.85 mio (just speakers and main amps) system I listened to extensively a few months ago (Sonus Faber Suprema, 4x Burmaster) was impressive for its absolute performance level, but it never measured high on my 'impressive' scale, because I have heard systems for 1/100 of the investment (not to speak of another mio to build a house with a suitable listening room) that were not THAT far off, lol.
|
it's not going to work INHO simply because bass isn't just bass. It' s not LEGO. You can't skip low frequencies and expect good sound by adding a sub or two. It won't produce full range. Sub is addition not completion. It has to sound good without the sub(s). There are lot of choice mostly used for a 1000. Arendal, Polk, NHT, Dali, Canton, Wharfedale, Q, Klipsch all have floorstanders that may work well. |
@gano: Like I said early, I already prooved that it sounded better (when cutting under 50Hz off the main), so that is NOT a discussion point for this posting. With no need for large woofers to handle 20 Hz, there is no need for 3 or more way complex system (and large ugly boxes). Small/slim design should also help. Only what (non full range) speakers can handle 50 Hz and up range for a VERY large room. Also not the question: what speakers can handle 50 Hz and above at low to medium levels in a very large room. Or maybe I should put it even blunter to avoid side tracked discussions: Are there any good 2 way speakers out there that have at least two 6.5" or similar low mid drivers (required IMO to 'feed' the very large room)? |
you can see number of drivers and driver sizes for 100s of speakers here |
@kraftwerkturbo wrote: "the next speaker design I want to try is a still small speaker but with two low/midrange drivers simply to be able to play at ’concert level’ without distortion; but still no need for very low bass. "Since still in the trial and error and validation phase of my ’concept’, any small 2 (if needed 3) way candidate must also fit the VERY low price (used) criteria ($1,000 or less)." I have been designing speakers specifically for use with subwoofers for close to two decades. As you mentioned, this frees up the main speakers from needing to handle the low bass, so they can be optimized for the rest of the spectrum. But the main reason I embrace this approach is that imo there are subwoofer solutions whose in-room performance is significantly better than equivalent-on-paper main speakers in the bottom two octaves. Unfortunately I have no recommendations on how to achieve "concert level without distortion" above the subwoofer range for less $1000; explore the used speaker offerings on this site and hopefully something will stand out to you. You might especially look at companies that have a prosound heritage. JBL and Klipsch come to mind; include Zu because they use prosound-type drivers. Also look at Tekton; I don't think their Mini Lore is realistically capable of "concert level without distortion", but it probably comes closer than most in its price ballpark. Very best of luck in your quest! Duke |
what you seek is not very abundant
most bookshelf loudspeakers cant play loud enough to fill up a room of that size
we know of one loudspeaker which will work https://starkesound.com/detail.html?id=22
can play up to 107db
107dB max output 55Hz - 28kHz frequency response ( 40 - 250W 4 ohms 89dB efficient https://www.audioholics.com/bookshelf-speaker-reviews/starke-sound-ic-h1-elite#:~:text=I%20found%20the%20fit%20and,referred%20to%20by%20Starke%20Sound. Dave and Troy Audio intellect NJ starke sound dealer
|
| Post removed |
@audiokinesis Interestingly, I had the mini lore for a while in my room. Actually quite nice sounding. I might 'go back' to bring it back into the mix with the big sub. |
Part of the problem is most sub woofers only have a low pass filter to roll them off where they mesh with the main speaker. If they also had a high pass for the main speaker to reduce the load on it, then the small main speaker could play much louder(and improve its performance and openness and clarity in the range above the high pass. |
The Acoustic Zen Adagio Jr would meet your requirements but not your price point. However there’s a pair on EBay from an estate sale with damage to the enclosure on one of them. And since it’s an estate sale have they been tested ? They look a bit tattered , but look and maybe ask some questions. At $650 if they play ok and you can give them some TLC they do sound pretty good. And maybe offer them less. Cheers , Mike. |
@erik_squires How's the 'subcabs' going? |
The original poster’s remote controlled Velodyne Digital Drive-15 is equipped with both variable low and high pass filtering. All Velodyne DD series subwoofers offer the ability to act as a master Optimization control in conjunction with most any slave subwoofer. High pass filtering is not a panacea rather a method to be tried. Usually in the case of inadequate amplification power to the main speakers or if the main speakers provide a poor low frequency response at their lower limit. In any case high pass filtering is a trial and error option to be determined by the user.
Using the original posters remote controlled Velodyne Digital Drive-15 provides multiple adjustment parameters for matching the main speakers presentation as well as room optimization and equalization which are then saved to six memory presets. Velodyne DD series subwoofer’s position must first be determined by using the subwoofer crawl or their calibrated mic while noting the rooms strongest or best sound standing wave modes (as should any subwoofer) to position the subwoofer in. The Velodyne DD Plus series uses a more in depth twenty minute auto program to make these adjustments which can easily be manually altered to taste then saved to memory within either models six EQ presets. Velodyne technology eliminated the "hard’ twenty-two years ago for either 10" $2,500. to 18" $5,800. |
It seems that your current setup has some similarities to mine - midbass/tweeter powered by small tubes amps with an inline filter @ 60hz, then bi-amped with a solid state amp/low pass active crossover @ 60hz that powers 8" woofers and active subs. I don’t have the need to play louder, but if I did I’d consider a speaker that’s similar to the single midbass/tweeter, but has an MTM configuration to retain the coherency of the 2-way, with the addition of more midbass output. |
@OP You are up against the laws of physics. You can make a small speaker play loud, but scale requires the ability to move a lot of air. So if you want concert level spl's and scale, a small two way just will not cut it. The closest to achieving that goal - at a price - that I've heard is the Borresen 01. If you absolutely have to have a small form factor speaker, the Neumann 310 might work - its a studio monitor, a three way in a pretty compact cabinet. Like most studio monitors, it's active. But really you would be better with a bigger three way floorstander. An 18 inch drive unit is not really designed to go up into the midbass, so you would be better off with a three way. |
@yoyoyaya: "You are up against the laws of physics. You can make a small speaker play loud, but scale requires the ability to move a lot of air." Yes, that is the point of this post: what speaker (CAN be small because it does NOT HAVE TO MAKE 120 dB SPL AT 50 Hz !!! But needs more ’square inches’ to ’move air’ in the low/mid range; more than the (typcial) 6.5" low mid. HENCE the suggestion and search for a speaker with MORE low/mid drivers. I.e. more small/medium sized drivers, say 2x 6.5, 2x 8. But NOT 1x 12 (physics; too much mass for mid frequencies). Think of a multiway mega speaker without the 'build in' sub. Or a full range speaker with woofer(s) and cabinet reduced in size to only reach down to 50 Hz. Physics again dictates that such woofer(s) can be smaller, lighter and don't require such large volume/cabinets. Yet physics dictates for higher SPL, that those smaller/light low/mid rang drivers 'move enough air', ergo need lots of square inches, ergo multiple smaller low/mid.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/16f2hB8yvlbjacowhikOukwEae6BZp1R8/view?usp=sharing |
@knotscott Yup, that is the idea. Mulitple small low/mid (for 'moving air' for higher spl), NO big woofers (no need for very low range), no big 'box'. https://d2j6dbq0eux0bg.cloudfront.net/images/13908254/3055753434.jpg What is out there, covering 50 and up (80 and up if needed) with lots of area for the low/mid? |
@buellrider97 Interesting: " Adagio: same 6.5 -inch mid/woofers constructed from a fabric layer sandwiched between two skins of ceramic doping; same 1.8" circular ribbon tweeter with a shielded 3.5-oz high-flux, highly temperature-resistant magnet structure", Will look for some reviews. |
@asvjerry It's actually quite convenient to search there and this question has recently come up in the guise of using professional midrange drivers. |
One of my audio buddies has the GR Research X-MTM Encore (which he loves). They have larger woofers and plenty of deep bass, but it made me think of the NX-Bravo, which has smaller woofers in an MTM in a transmission line and a waveguide with what I think is an AMT tweeter. My midbass drivers dump into a transmission line, and could possibly be one of the things that gives them such a non-resonant boxless sound. Food for thought anyway... |
Go the DIY route. A tried a true design. Something like the Zaph ZD5 which would impress most anyone. The ZRT is another one but I was able to run it full range. Zaph Audio page will give full instructions. Madisound still sells premade crossovers I believe. Madisound will also have other kits. Troels has plenty of designs as well. All using premium drivers for premium sounding speakers for a budget investment. |
Hi/low pass: in my setup, the receiver 'cuts' the main speakers if at a selected frequency (I use 50 Hz, high pass) and sends the low frequencies (under 50 Hz, low pass) to the sub out (to sub amplifier). With small Epicure 5 currently in the rotation, I actually tried even 80 Hz to further relieve the mains for 'heavy duty', but even at 80 Hz, the single 6" low/mid is getting overwhelmed when pushed. As proof of concept, I plan to rotate in a pair of Aviatrix with 2x 5 1/4 currently in small 2nd system: https://www.parts-express.com/SSP%20Applications/PartsExpress@SuiteCentric/SCA%202019.1/img/300-7134_HR_0.default.jpg?resizeid=104&resizeh=600&resizew=600
|
@knotscott The NX Bravo crosses over to the tweeter at 950 Hz. That is an AWFUL lot of engergy going to the single tweeter at high listening levels. Speaker size: Sensitivity: 91dB
|
Perhaps true, but I think some of that lower output is achieved from the waveguide, and not just diaphragm excursion. (could be worth an inquiry to see what they have to say about your concern) There’s never a free lunch....the upside of a low tweeter crossover frequency tends to be excellent dispersion and imaging. |
@knotscott My Heil amts' can be crossed between 500~1K, so 950 may not be such a stretch. Really hinges on the woofer if just a 2way.... |
@erik_squires Opting to use instrument drivers in the next 4 DIY's, as heat is an issue for the voice coils....usually made with sterner stuff... I am not afraid.... ;) |
@asvjerry Honestly in my modest home theater I doubt I use a total of more than 20 watts at any given point in time. |
Agreed....there are some variables involved including Fs, x-over slope, and power handling characteristics of the tweeter. |
I also have a very large room (26 x 16 x 8). Across the front I utilize the HSU CCB-8 which is a concentric bookshelf speaker (tweeter imbedded into an 8" woofer). I also run a Buckeye Hypex NCx500 class D amp across the front stage, 2 SVS 3000 sealed woofers, Kef Q150's as the rear surrounds, and an SVS Ultra Surround as the back surround. Goven your price range, The CCB-8's only run around $400 each and they deliver great detail and offer a very nice soundstage. The bass goes down to around 50 Hz. In my setup, (7,2.2) these sound very good and help fill my large room with sound. I run dual subs which help a lot, and the Buckeye Amp was a recent addition; it brings out a lot of additional dynamics across the front stage. Good luck in your quest for a relatively inexpensive bookshelf speaker for a large room. |
@kraftwerkturbo Wrote:
Maybe a pair of JBL 4612-OK, no bass below 50Hz see here. Mike |
Very few speakers are designed and manufactured with cost no object in mind. Revel ultimate gem 1’s where designed right after Samsung bought Harman industry. They developed those speakers with the idea of buying into the upper echelons of hifi market place. Read what someone familiar with the development of those speakers said;
“What I was thinking about was how in the first generation Ultima speakers Harman Industries was all in to establish the Revel brand so controlling manufacturing cost, and profits, were no object. While most high-end audio speakers brands are minimally funded and attempt to pull themselves up by the bootstraps that was a rare instance of top management at a billion dollar corporation hiring one of the best designers in the industry and giving him a blank check. As was said back then Revel hit the market with “shock and awe” buying a place immediately in the first rank. Once the brand was established I watched as 2nd and later generation models were cost engineered for greater profit. In instances like that it is good to get the benefit of those deep pockets buying market share with a line of over engineered over build models.” |
@erik_squires *G* Well, it's always nice to have overhead to spare...but pounding self into a happy 'phile of jell-o at 1st Song.... We'll all be jealous...live stream the set-up and all of us 'out here' can suggest A>Z back....as always when the peanut gallery gets rowdy.... ;) |
@OP I am only managing to reply to you now. With respect, you are missing the point. Small drivers in small cabinets will not deliver scale at high spls even if they do not have to reproduce low bass. 40Hz is (roughly) low E on a 4 string bass. Most bass fundamentals in rock music are there or above that and their harmonics continue further up into the midrange. For the price point you are aiming at, you would be better off looking at a pair of PA speakers. If you want high spls and concert type sound in a large room for $1k, you’re not going to get it from a hi fi speaker, regardless of its bandwidth. So, with the specified budget, you can either have accuracy and limited ability to play loud and clean or high spls and lots of air being moved but with more ragged tonality. |
Mabye the subwoofer gets there too, but I have a lot more voice coil wattage capacity than I'll use. 