@wharfy Thank you for the suggestions. I have not listened to any of the suggested speaker brand, so will take a look.
Speaker choice without need for deep bass
I am slowly moving away from large full size/full range speakers and migrate to smaller 2 way.
This effect is caused by me adding a great 18" subwoofer to the system, and later playing with the 'main' speakers (and main amplifier) relieved of the 50 Hz and below heavy lifting duties (low pass to sub with own dedicated amp, high pass to main amplifier/main speakers).
So the big full range speakers were replaced with large bookshelf. Everything is fine, except that I have a HUGE (by volume and area) open main listening room. But now the 2 way speaker with one 6" woofer just CANNOT 'move enough air' to listen to high level music without starting to distort.
Therefore the next speaker design I want to try is a still small speaker but with two low/midrange drivers simply to be able to play at 'concert level' without distortion; but still no need for very low bass.
Since still in the trial and error and validation phase of my 'concept', any small 2 (if needed 3) way candiate must also fit the VERY low price (used) criteria ($1,000 or less).
What comes to mind?
Note: I had also inquired about the KEF LS50 for example, but was told they (and similar speakers) would suffer from the 'just not enough square inches' issue required for very large rooms.
Showing 14 responses by kraftwerkturbo
@ ghdprentice: "wrong direction"? Maybe. But my testing/experience showed significant improvement in almost all relevant categories when I added the powered 18" sub (replaceing two meager 10", and then my great Velodyne DD15, now in use in the 2nd system), and later 'cut' the main speaker/receiver off at 50 Hz. Note: the main speakers were B&W Nautilis 804. Having 'no need' for very deep bass frees up the main speaker design from huge cabinets with big volume to facilitate the huge woofers and the required massive air volume. Ergo: smaller, less complex speakers are possible. And that has already been accomplished. And I could rest. BUT, if I want to listen at elevated (call it 'live') souid pressure levels in my main room, it seem a single 6" inch low/mid even cut a 80 Hz is 'getting it done'. Aside from that: price has obviouisly nothing to do with the issues, since that is relative. If the budget were $10k, your (potential) answer would be "you need $100k to get even close to a decent system", just when the next guy chimes in "no way you can put a real quality system together for $1000k (thats a cool million). And yes, the 1.85 mio (just speakers and main amps) system I listened to extensively a few months ago (Sonus Faber Suprema, 4x Burmaster) was impressive for its absolute performance level, but it never measured high on my 'impressive' scale, because I have heard systems for 1/100 of the investment (not to speak of another mio to build a house with a suitable listening room) that were not THAT far off, lol.
|
@gano: Like I said early, I already prooved that it sounded better (when cutting under 50Hz off the main), so that is NOT a discussion point for this posting. With no need for large woofers to handle 20 Hz, there is no need for 3 or more way complex system (and large ugly boxes). Small/slim design should also help. Only what (non full range) speakers can handle 50 Hz and up range for a VERY large room. Also not the question: what speakers can handle 50 Hz and above at low to medium levels in a very large room. Or maybe I should put it even blunter to avoid side tracked discussions: Are there any good 2 way speakers out there that have at least two 6.5" or similar low mid drivers (required IMO to 'feed' the very large room)? |
@audiokinesis Interestingly, I had the mini lore for a while in my room. Actually quite nice sounding. I might 'go back' to bring it back into the mix with the big sub. |
@yoyoyaya: "You are up against the laws of physics. You can make a small speaker play loud, but scale requires the ability to move a lot of air." Yes, that is the point of this post: what speaker (CAN be small because it does NOT HAVE TO MAKE 120 dB SPL AT 50 Hz !!! But needs more ’square inches’ to ’move air’ in the low/mid range; more than the (typcial) 6.5" low mid. HENCE the suggestion and search for a speaker with MORE low/mid drivers. I.e. more small/medium sized drivers, say 2x 6.5, 2x 8. But NOT 1x 12 (physics; too much mass for mid frequencies). Think of a multiway mega speaker without the 'build in' sub. Or a full range speaker with woofer(s) and cabinet reduced in size to only reach down to 50 Hz. Physics again dictates that such woofer(s) can be smaller, lighter and don't require such large volume/cabinets. Yet physics dictates for higher SPL, that those smaller/light low/mid rang drivers 'move enough air', ergo need lots of square inches, ergo multiple smaller low/mid.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/16f2hB8yvlbjacowhikOukwEae6BZp1R8/view?usp=sharing |
@knotscott Yup, that is the idea. Mulitple small low/mid (for 'moving air' for higher spl), NO big woofers (no need for very low range), no big 'box'. https://d2j6dbq0eux0bg.cloudfront.net/images/13908254/3055753434.jpg What is out there, covering 50 and up (80 and up if needed) with lots of area for the low/mid? |
@buellrider97 Interesting: " Adagio: same 6.5 -inch mid/woofers constructed from a fabric layer sandwiched between two skins of ceramic doping; same 1.8" circular ribbon tweeter with a shielded 3.5-oz high-flux, highly temperature-resistant magnet structure", Will look for some reviews. |
Hi/low pass: in my setup, the receiver 'cuts' the main speakers if at a selected frequency (I use 50 Hz, high pass) and sends the low frequencies (under 50 Hz, low pass) to the sub out (to sub amplifier). With small Epicure 5 currently in the rotation, I actually tried even 80 Hz to further relieve the mains for 'heavy duty', but even at 80 Hz, the single 6" low/mid is getting overwhelmed when pushed. As proof of concept, I plan to rotate in a pair of Aviatrix with 2x 5 1/4 currently in small 2nd system: https://www.parts-express.com/SSP%20Applications/PartsExpress@SuiteCentric/SCA%202019.1/img/300-7134_HR_0.default.jpg?resizeid=104&resizeh=600&resizew=600
|
@knotscott The NX Bravo crosses over to the tweeter at 950 Hz. That is an AWFUL lot of engergy going to the single tweeter at high listening levels. Speaker size: Sensitivity: 91dB
|
@yoyoyaya Price has really nothing to do with physics. Example: the Nautilus 804 (ok, those where $2.5k) as well as the $0.3k Infinity RS625 (example) had no issue delivering the desired SPL in my large room, with the crossover set at 50 Hz. Or in simple terms: a $100k 2 way speaker with 4" low/mid driven by a $325k Burmaster amp will NOT be able to generate the desired SPL in my room. Sorry. Money only goes that far. At some point, physics takes over :-) |
@bgross will read up, but looks like very rare (often =price) from europe: https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/revequip/equation_7.htm
|