Not really when an idea of "trusting your ears" is widely used as a sales pitch and extreme lack of education of consumer on how to read and comprehend those graphs.
Notably before 90's graphs, schematics and detailed reference manuals had been provided with purchase, but after 90's such documentation was replaced with wording of not to go "inside box" to avoid electric shock.
Educated consumer might not "trust" unless information provided. Therefore such education has been diminished so sales can go quicker and larger.
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I ran into a situation with needing a speaker frequency response, but the maker wasn't comfortable with providing me with one for basically a lot of the reasons many have listed here: people not really knowing what they are looking at, not really knowing what they are listening to, nor really knowing what their room is doing...and 'not knowing' also means not truly objectively educated understanding.
I don't know what Tekton is dealing with specifically, but I would bet that the frequency response of the reviewers, if 90% accurate to the 'voicing' of the speaker, is very important to them and "what makes their speaker sound_______________" and may feel proprietary to Tekton. I would imagine in general audio companies are constantly battling what I would bet the world battles endlessly: everybody knows just enough to blow themselves up....and possibly a manufacturer with 'just enough' information that makes them dangerous.
Charts are helpful/useful, but people can easily mis-read them, misunderstand them, and make incorrect claims/assumptions about them. If all things were equal and proper, if you listened to X-speaker in a room specifically set up and treated by the manufacturer that best represented that speaker, and you bought it based on that sound you heard.....then I could see a chart being useful....to help you change YOUR ROOM to get it to better match what the X-speaker did in the manufacturer's room. In my specific case I wanted the makers frequency response to help illustrate to someone what their room was doing to ruin what they spent thousands of dollars on.
I know first hand that peoples hearing, and their brain, can over ride nearly anything. A frequency chart could do the same, without even remotely knowing/understanding objectively what that chart was showing.
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"without his permission" was your wording, not mine, from the opening post. You should wear it with pride!
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@mlsstl I didn't use the words "needing permission." You did...creating a strawman argument.
I wrote "didn't have permission" which is a fact and not a value judgement.
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@botrytis I know this and even stated this. Please see my statement below.
in this specific case Erin did notify Eric that he was reviewing his product, to make sure he had the correct listening axis.
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So, we're back to needing permission before making public comment about a product. Would love to have a list of those other companies that have threatened or instigated litigation over an unwanted audio review.
I think I've said what I have to say.
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@seanheis1 Actually, Erin wrote to Eric to ask questions BEFORE he reviewed the speakers. So, Eric KNEW it was happening.
Erin was above board on this.
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@mlsstl in this specific case Erin did notify Eric that he was reviewing his product, to make sure he had the correct listening axis. However, he didn't have Eric's permission to review his product or publish measurements....which is the norm for print media and YouTubers who have enough subscribers to be sent product.
ASR normally doesn't have permission to publish measurements and Amir is the biggest exception to the norm.
Other companies have reacted similar to Eric in that they have threatened litigation. You don't have to go back as far as Bose v Consumer Reports. However, Erin leaked the information and put Eric on blast...that is uncommon.
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@seanheis1 -- I think you are confusing "permission" from a company for a review with notifying them, the latter which is perhaps more common with the "influencer" crowd that generates money from views and the traditional audio web sites that often started as magazines. To my knowledge, ASR has never asked permission or given notice to a manufacturer prior to testing an item, though they have often interacted with a manufacturer after the review has been posted. I don't think any other company has reacted the way Tekton has -- it is Tekton's behavior that has caused the fracas, not the review itself. As noted before, it was a complete non-issue for months after the original review.
That said, I'm content with what's been posted in this thread and those reading are free to draw whatever conclusions they like.
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@mlsstl permission is the norm so a review done without permission was worth mentioning for contextual reasons...no other implications.
it sounds like you are trying to justify rude forum behavior. Just treat it like real life...you know the place that's not so safe if you provoke another male ;-)
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@seanheis1 -- I was reacting to your specific comment in the original post that a review was done "without his [Eric's] permission". I thought it very odd to strongly imply that a product manufacturer's "permission" is needed before anyone is allowed to publicly give their opinion about a product. Yours was an odd choice of phrase if you meant something else. Fine by me if that is a "reading comprehension" issue in your mind,
But, this is a public forum so no one should be surprised at the wide variety of comments in response to a topic like this. Internet forums are not a good choice if one is looking for a safe space.
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@mlsstl I am fully aware of the dispute...and I didn't feel the need to weigh in on Eric's behavior...that drama doesn't interest me.
Both times you have called my @ handle, you are assuming things I didn't say...I believe this is called the "straw man fallacy." Or possibly a reading comprehension issue? You also were impolite so back at you ;-)
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@seanheis1 -- "Eric is a special case in that it has become a pubic dispute..."
Umm... if you had bothered to check out how this whole thing started, it was self-induced by Eric. The original ASR review, which was said the speaker was so-so rather than "bad", was in October 2023 and commenting (with no Eric yet) was over with in a few weeks. It sat dormant until February when Eric decided to get on his high horse and accuse ASR of publishing a false review. Then he threatened litigation. HE made it an issue with his accusations and threats.
(BTW, on a similar note, Bose sued Consumers Reports for a bad review in 1970. The case went all the way to the US Supreme Court, Bose lost.)
It would have been far smarter for Eric to wear the ASR review as a badge of honor. No product is going to appeal to every segment of the market and plenty of people -- as illustrated in this and other threads -- don’t care for ASR’s opinion. There are plenty of buyers for the "I’m interested in how it sounds, not how it measures" products. Eric’s own behavior has likely chased away many of those potential buyers.
Plenty of small boutique audio products do just fine in spite of less than glowing ASR reviews. But, they don’t threaten litigation.
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What an AASS. Nice to know there's a term that describes me too. 😄
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We in this hobby are Audio Application Sound Specialists, or AASS‘s for short. We do not design speakers, amps, DACs, cables or turntables. We design audio systems. Therefore, what matters most to us are the basic interface specifications of each component. For example, for a given speaker we need power handling range, frequency response range, efficiency, impedance curve, ported/unported, size, and weight. And finally the looks for those who don’t listen in the dark. For more advanced work the Q factor might be beneficial to know. Nothing in the design/development specs is going to give us much of a clue as to how the speaker sounds or images in our room along with our ancillary equipment and cables. The speaker designer and builder is doing his best to make a product that looks pleasing, plays well with various amps and is reliable all while meeting a price point. I have been known to blow a tweeter or two in my day.
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So, what is important about the Tekton review not having Eric's prior approval? Is he a special case?
@mlsstl Yes, Eric is a special case in that it has become a pubic dispute and gives us an inside look about what normally goes on behind the scenes with reviewers and manufacturers. When normal protocols go away, we see what can happen.
With Erin & Amir's ability to receive gear from subscribers, it puts the hi-fi industry on notice. Small boutique brands can potentially be destroyed.
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@seanheis1 -- just a quick observation -- Consumers Reports has been publishing reviews of all manner of goods since 1936 without the maker's permission. Yelp is full of public comments -- many very negative -- about products and services that were made without asking the company first. You can find lots of complaints about products and services on the Better Business Bureau's web site. There are many more examples.
So, what is important about the Tekton review not having Eric's prior approval? Is he a special case?
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@seanheis1
Thank you for making my point. The variables will be a lot and, again, that will change once that speaker is in my room. Therefore, if you want to post anechoic measurements or from your back yard I don't care. That's not going to tell me how it sounds in my room. Most people don't have a dedicated room so chances are the room and placement will have more to do with the sound which is why I don't pay attention to ASR of Erins measurements. I have yet to understand why people put so much stock into that as well as reviews.
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The graph, response, etc of a review has always bored me to tears. I don’t care about them at all.
If a review went from specs to the conclusion, I’d be ok with that.
As the the Tekton lawsuit…what a weenie! Reviewers should tell it as they hear it or graph it, without fear of being sued.
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@seanheis1 Maybe. I am always up to learn new things. If you are ever in New Jersey, shoot me a message and swing by, We should be at Audio Connection in Verona real soon with our 6SN7 tube preamp and 6SN7 hybrid power amplifier.
Always, Happy Listening..
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@bigkidz if you manufacturer hi-fi components...you would notice if the response of an active component was +/- 3dB. Having said that, I have never heard of a component that creates such large frequency response errors....maybe a tube amp with a very low damping factor trying to drive Magnepans would create some big response errors. ;-)
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@seanheis1 - I am not sure what the graph will tell you. You may know more than I do in that regard. BUT in manufacturing equipment, I guess I can tailor components to produce the sound I prefer. I am not convinced that you can tell from a graph what the overall sound will produce. Maybe an emphasis but not the overall sound. Magico speakers use computer modeling I think and they changed the way that model works recently so who knows. Vandersteen uses more of his ears to design and finalize what those speakers sound like. I can only go by our experience on what we have heard, modified and repaired which has been a lot over the years.
Happy Listening.
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@seanheis1 It is rare now for speakers to have a 5 dB anechoic amplitude error except at the very ends of the audio spectrum. On the other hand early room reflections can cause errors over 10 dB. I had a window adjacent to the right channel speaker I had to remove because of a 12 dB response error it caused above 10 kHz.
Amplitude errors do not just occur in the bass. They are usually more pronounced in the bass, but if anything in the room is resonating, like my window, strange things can and do happen. Using "room control" only in the bass is inadequate. It has to cover the entire audio band. When a processor can perform room control an added benefit is that it can also do EQ given the user the ability to voice their system the way they want it.
I want to also add that the knowledge of what an audio system is or should be capable of is gained only by experience. You have to have heard a system performing at that level. Live performances can be useful, but only if acoustic in nature. Once you add amplification, particularly in large venues, all bets are off. The sound quality at large stadium concerts is typically hideous and in mono. A good system with a good live recording has no problem outperforming that circumstance. IMHE, as an audio insider in the late 70's and 80s, experienced listeners always know when they are in the presence of an exceptional system. It only takes 30 seconds of a familiar recording, you can see their eyes widen, and exceptional systems will do this to every honest experience listener that hears them. Not that these systems have no faults, their faults can be glaringly obvious, usually in the low bass, but their performance extremely convincing none the less.
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So if they or ASR wants to post frequency curves that's fine, neither will tell me what they measure in my room.
@sunshdw Your speakers will dominate the measurements until the room starts to take over. If you have a larger room, the room will start to dominate the response at around 500hz....for a small room it's around 250hz...
However, if you have a very small room or speakers very close to sidewalls for example, you're going to end up with phase cancellations or peaks at much higher frequencies.
Lets say a speaker has a 5dB frequency response error due to a rising response...and then your small room is reinforcing that peak another 5dB...at that point a 10dB peak in the mids or higher frequencies will make the speaker unlistenable...this is a core argument for mitigating frequency response errors at the factory.
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For what reason? Are you going to buy because of the chart?
Great question @bigkidz ....The chart is more likely to cause me to avoid a particular speaker. If for example the speaker has a rising response due to lack of baffle step compensation....that's not for me. I know that speaker will sound too forward and possibly even shouty.
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@mijostyn
”The amplitude response of a speaker is a moving target. It will change depending on the room. There are also other factors that play a significant role in audio fidelity like phase behavior and group delays. I do not pay attention to specs. I review the design of the speaker and make the best determination I can that I will be able to make the speaker perform to my expectations.”
“I might also add that measuring your system in place is much more informative.”
This is how I roll. However, when I was much younger, I was a technical specification person. If the device had low THD/IMD and depicted a ruler flat response, to me, it must be a good thing. As we grow and mature in this hobby, we now know through experience that that methodology is not entirely accurate as to what we actually perceive as musicality in the actual operating environment which has numerous variables.
There is one caveat. When auditioning very large speakers, multiple listening samplings at various locations / venues must be conducted in order to grasp the persona of that speaker. When comparing and contrasting a speaker you have owned for many years to something different, it will be readily obvious that what you hear is either good or bad in a fairly short amount of time. That’s why when I go to audio shows and walk into a room, if it sounds bad to me, I am out in either a few seconds or a minute. My comparative reference is different than anyone else and what sounds good to me, may not necessarily sound good to someone else.
What should start a new thread call titling it “What have you learned” or something like that.
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“It merely requires an understanding of how the measurements correlate to perceived should quality“
Good luck with that. A panel of listeners will rarely, if ever unanimously agree on the sound quality of a speaker or system. On top of that, any speaker will sound different based on the room, the setup, the amps, the cables, the source, condition of the power coming into the system, etc.
“…take any two tweeters and provide a CSD/waterfall graph for each. Based on the graphs, I could tell you with certainty…“. No, not with certainty. You might guess right some of the time.
“… a speaker with a wider horizontal dispersion over a large bandwidth will produce a bigger soundstage than one with a narrower dispersion over the same bandwidth.“. Not really. Careful, you are using lots of fancy terms here without context.
Have you actually designed and built a speaker?
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I have never been able to discern the voicing of a speaker from performance specs.
From manufacturer specs? That makes sense.
However, it is not difficult to do with thorough third-party measurements. It merely requires an understanding of how the measurements correlate to perceived sound quality. For example, take any two tweeters and provide a CSD/waterfall graph for each. Based on the graphs, I could tell you with certainty which one will sound cleaner and more refined.
Another example: a speaker with a wider horizontal dispersion over a large bandwidth will produce a bigger soundstage than one with a narrower dispersion over the same bandwidth.
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They should at least make them available upon request.
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I couldn't care less, simply because their measurements aren't in my room which is always vastly different. I also don't put much stock into the tech specs which tend to be off as well.
So if they or ASR wants to post frequency curves that's fine, neither will tell me what they measure in my room.
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I have never been able to discern the voicing of a speaker from performance specs.
Heck, even the humidity levels in my room change the sound. Let alone all the other variables.
I have concluded that performance specs are for bench racing.
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"Why would anyone want to look a Porsche 911 specs or its track performance? "
That is precisely the point. Why do you need to look at 911 specs? We all knowit is a great car.
Stop comparing muscle cars and "high end" audio. Fooling someone with cars is a lot harder to do.
Junk sound gets priced at 100k quite easy.
This has to be the greatest video ever made 😁
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@erik_squires wrote: "I'd much rather see off-axis frequency plots as done by Stereophile and others, as well as dynamic range plots."
Yes! The off-axis information in particular is imo extremely useful.
I WISH John Atkinson did not "normalize" his off-axis curves, as that makes it harder to see the overall picture of what's REALLY going on. I think that for one or maybe two issues he posted off-axis curves that were NOT normalized to the on-axis curve, but then he went back to posting normalized curves.
Duke
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"Why would anyone want to look a Porsche 911 specs or its track performance? "
That is precisely the point. Why do you need to look at 911 specs? We all knowit is a great car.
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Manufacturers should include specs and explanation of how measurements were made for reference. It adds credibility for their design philosophy, then have a listen. Why would anyone want to look a Porsche 911 specs or its track performance? They are just measurements, my family vehicle feels faster.
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A major consideration where run of the mill measurements completely miss the mark is the materials used in the drivers themselves. For example, Kevlar, polyprop, etc used in drivers that measure perfectly...you might as well throw a blanket on your speaker before you started listening.
This is one of the reasons i don’t like the low effort/resources brands who buy mass market drivers from someone else and put it in a box. It takes some guy who has put serious thought into the materials used in drivers and developed his own from scratch.
We could go on about crossovers, etc... barrel bottom quality components in crossovers can still measure perfectly. With sim software, you can very quickly design great crossovers, But, as you move up in quality of components used, the sound totally changes, i.e. the measurements say little about "quality" (whatever that word means to you).
Last, but not the least, humans perceive way too much in transients (spatial nuance, etc). The configuration (Drivers+crossovers+box) that gets botched w.r.t the latter, no matter how great it measures with traditional measurements will sound like a ..."meh".
The above mentioned perhaps falls into the "esoterica" (dismissed) category for the ASR type of guy, another reason i despise that loathsome forum.
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"As engineer for 20+ years I can assure you 99% of the high tech things you use (or even keep you alive, I work in the biopharmaceutical industy) (sic) were build or designed using models."
I do not doubt this, however I do not need to know and am not interested in measurements; I am interested in how they sound to me and whether I like that sound.
"Some of the responses here display the anti-science attitude which I find very frustrating in this forum." - see my comment above.
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Some of the responses here display the anti-science attitude which I find very frustrating in this forum. The vast majority of speaker manufacturers will measure the frequency response of their products, as well as a host of other parameters. An estimated in-room response (based on a large number of on and off axis frequency response measurements), such as that measured by Klippel, actually will do a pretty good job of indicating how the speaker will sound in an "average" room. It doesn't tell you everything, of course...distortion, directivity, impedance, sensitivity...all are important. I wouldn't buy any speakers based on data without listening, but I would certainly rule some out based on data.
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Most garbage speakers I have seen (and heard) had 3 things in common: Cheap connectors, a little tab to pull off the velcro attached front grille, and a frequency response graph showing flat response from 30Hz to 22kHz.
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I agree with erik_squires. A frequency response chart made in an anechoic room has little to do with how that speaker will sound in your room with your amplifier. Besides, the impedance of the speaker is changing with frequency which will affect how your amplifier/speaker cables sound coupled to those speakers.
Back in the early 1990's I built my first dedicated listening room and I added sound dampening to make my room have a flat frequency response. The room was very close to anechoic. The music sounded dead and lifeless. I had to remove much of the dampening material.
That's my point, I guess. If you want flat frequency response then you will need a hemianechoic room like the room where they test speakers. It will not sound so good. Think about live music. No band ever plays in an anechoic room. Life is messy and so is music.
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Iaoman,
“In what way? Do these measurements tell me I will like what I hear?”
Yes, they do tell you what you hear and estimate in room too. Each room is a bit different though so there is some variance which is mostly 200hz (not to mention some of us have HF hearing loss) and below. once you hear a few speakers that have full measurements and decide which ones you like better it is pretty easy to look at other measurements and know which ones you will like better and seek a demo based on those measurements. You can even look at the dispersion and understand what the soundstage is going to do.
I don’t read or post on ASR either, as I don’t like the absolutist attitude and whiny commentary on their but there are a bunch of knowledgeable people there just as there are here (many of the same people…)
Lack of measurement understanding does not make measurements untrue. Some things are very subtle in the measurements and it takes time to understand them.
Some things are still lacking in the measurements, I feel transients and detail is still missing but measure and use the data you have and demo for the other things.
I have owned two speakers that have both had full spins. The Revel 228be and the JBL 4367s. I did same room/system direct A/B comparisons. Listening to them back to back and looking at the measurements is almost 1:1 how they actually sounded in my room.
I bought the revel after demoing and bought the JBL 100% blind based on the measurement…. I kept the JBLs and sold the Revels after direct A/B in my room.
As engineer for 20+ years I can assure you 99% of the high tech things you use (or even keep you alive, I work in the biopharmaceutical industy) were build or designed using models.
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I do ears and brain, not graphs and numbers. I don't know the measurements of the gear I've got here and I don't much care, I just know it sounds awesome.... But if people want them, they should probably be available, with the usual caveats....
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@deep_333 +1
The most important graph for me is the Impedance & Phase vs frequency graph. I want to know if my amp needs to drive 2 ohm loads with a difficult phase angle. I believe it to be the most important data when choosing a power amp. next up is sensitivity. That too dictates my amp selection. Then I can vet by sound quality to my ears.
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If you go to the drag strip and test run your car and you post your 0-60 and 0-100 run, I wonder if you will get in trouble with the manufacturers. And thus, the conversation.
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No. But they should include a warning label stating that their sound can be highly addictive, thus straining relationships, creating an additional financial burden, and many hours of sitting in the "sweet spot" can be detrimental to your health.
I agree that one measurement (out of a possible 7?) does tell the whole story. Horsepower and torque specs when selecting a automobile can be "useful". But, we did reject a vehicle because we didn't like the cupholders.
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Graphs and measurements can be important - but they are not the be all and end all. I remember reading a long review on Audio Science Review Forum that gave an exhaustive analysis of a myriad of measurements and then made conclusions and recommendations based on those measurements. Nowhere in the review did it mention how it sounded. It left me scratching my head in wonderment.
Imagine a restaurant review that tells you how the food was cooked and what it looked like, but never mentions how it tastes.
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For what reason? Are you going to buy because of the chart?
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If graphs are important to you, check out Ascend Acoustics. They provided them and even included a copy of my specific pair of raal towers in the shipping box. That was more than 10 years ago. I even discussed it with the owner. They were just slightly off the one published, but even better. I no longer own these but have only good memories of them.
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The only figures I look are is the efficiency and the nominal impedance as they will give me an idea if my amplification will drive a speaker without any issues, then I just listen.
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"Nope. I buy speakers based on my hearing, not a graph made in a testing lab."
This! I agree completely.
"The full measurements that the kipples spit out are super valuable. " In what way? Do these measurements tell me I will like what I hear? No! I am not an ASR minion that needs to be told whether a speaker sounds good or not.
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