Should I steer clear of class D amps

My Lyngdorf 3400 is the only class D I’ve ever liked. It’s kinda class D I guess, more like a power DAC. Anyway it’s very natural sounding without the lower treble glare I’ve heard with every other Class D amp I’ve had. Granted it’s also the most expensive. 

The  only class d amp I’ve had experience wp Is a Nord nc252 (hypex, iI think).  Recently, I’ve been listening to the Fosi V3 chip amp, and have to say, to my ears, it sounds better than the class d amp.  Sweeter,  better dynamics, and more holographic.  I’m excited to see where these amps go in the near future.

I got a $250 used class D amp, xtz edge a2-300 (they won  a contest for least memorable product name) on ebay and was pleasantly surprised. Given economies of scale, improvements in fets, lower power consumption, and expiring patents, this technology will put enormous pressure on linear amp products, and it will increase market share in serious listeners. I imagine it is ubiquitous in non audiophile systems already for cost reasons.

Any general opinions based on older products are vulnerable to getting out of sync with reality. Mine sure was.

Another option is a teac AP-505 - especially if you like VU metres. class d based on Hypex. 

Teac AP-505

Late to the party, as usual (sigh).

I bought an NAD 3050 and it arrived a few weeks ago. Sonically, it is much better than my C325 BEE and C356 BEE in "categories."

That is to say, a much better reproduction of the high frequencies, lower distortion, more transparent, etc., etc, etc.

BUT.

I noticed that voices do not sound as "magical" as they do on the C325 (aided by the Center Stage 2Ms). I can’t explain why, but they just don’t. I had recently bought the Critical Mass Center Stage footers, which are pretty dazzling (and I’ve had considerable experience with footers, going back to 1999). On the 325 (with the CD player sitting on the Center Stage 2Ms), singers (and I mean only on well-recorded music) have a "see-into" transparency that lets you know how the singer is marshalling his/her breath to create the sounds. I purposely read a comic book (one of my other intense interests) and found myself looking up - involuntarily - at how say, Cleo Laine (a quite famous British jazz singer) sounded. I’ve had the CD (and lp) for 30 years, and as good as it sounded (recorded live in Carnegie Hall in 1973), her voice never truly sounded "alive" the way it did when I heard her live! Not even on Jadis equipment!

But now, with the Center Stage in the system (underneath the Arcam FMJ CD23 CD player) and the 325 sitting on a Townshend Audio Seismic Vibration Platform, I could hear exceptional vibrato, intake of breath (and even though that can be achieved by having an excess in the 1-5k range, this was not that!) of the kind that happens when a singer sings live. My eyes bugged out, and I’ve had the best equipment (Jadis, VAC, Audio Research, VTL, Goldmund, all top of the line back in the 90s) and her voice never sounded like the way it did on the C325 (WITH THE CENTER STAGE 2MS) even on the VAC or Jadis amps (and the rest of the system was far, far superior, and cost-wise, in the 50k range ( back in 1990). In todays dollars, that same system would cost $135k).

Now, granted, this does not mean the staging, or detail was of the highest quality. Only her voice and John Dankworth’s sax (he’s her husband). The sonics went past mere "sound" quality and into the realm of realism.

So, naturally, when I got the 3050, I swapped out the two amps and listened again. Hmmm...her voice doesn’t have that sound that you would have if you were in the mixing booth listening to her sing. Nah, I thought, it must be that the amp’s not broken in. So, I gave it two weeks and still...no cigar.

I have no idea if this is the chipset in the class D 3050 or what, but I prefer the C325 when it comes to voices. If I was only listening to instruments, I might have missed that particular quality, but since I listen to Ella, Frank, and a whole lot of 50s, 60s and 70s bands and singers, it then became hard to miss.

On the other hand, if I was listening to Stravinsky’s Rite of Spring, I’m not sure I would have realized the difference between the two amps, so good did the strings sound, the soundstage clearly better with the 3050. But I want "magic" and while the Center Stage 2Ms will take a $600 amp and make it sound closer to a 3k amp (and I’ve had plenty of those), it did NOT do the same thing when I got a second set of the 2ms and put them under the NAD 3050. The 325 won, hands down if voices were involved. You'd have to hear it yourself to understand.

Again, I don’t know if it has anything to to with class D. What I do know is that the 3050 could not best the C325 in the reproduction of voices. That was a surprise, but not exactly: I wondered if the technology (and Nell Gader reviewed it late last year in TAS and loved it) had some kind of weakness on really stellar singers. I could even hear the difference (meaning the Center Stages) on a compilation of a disco era CD. And that on each and every cut. The 3050 sounded quite ordinary.

I’m willing to believe - given it’s a new room - that I might’ve moved a speaker 1/16" too far to the right/left. But clarity and transparency are not the same as "magic".

I sure hope someone else who has the Center Stages tries this experiment: use exceptionally well recorded classical music (I use Mercury Living Presence, Deccas, and RCAs) and then say, Peter, Paul and Mary (Album 1700) or some other very well-recorded singers and finds otherwise.

But the 3050 is going back. It also didn’t help that there is no way to hook up my Nola Thunderbolt subwoofers (I have 2) to the amp. No point in having 2 and only being able to hook up one.

My amp is going to end up being the Aesthetix Mimas, which was my other choice.

I’m sure this is an isolated case where class D and my speakers (Nola Contenders) just are not the motto of the Army: Be All That You Can Be. But there is no magic between speaker and amp in this case. I should point out that Carl, the designer, used tubes with his speakers. But I’ve had 6 different Nolas, and paired them with tube and solid state and it always sounded gorgeous. And voices always sounded true-to-life. Just not this combination.

I’m not advocating against NAD (heaven forefend! I have 4 of their integrateds, all the way back to 2002), or Class D. I am merely appending a warning to hear them in your own system (NOT the dealer’s: YOUR room. YOUR system) and see how it sounds. I’ve not doubt that if Listened to ’80s vinyl or ’90s vinyl (both decades produced the worst vinyl. It would "twang" like a rubber band), I might not have noticed, given how overproduced so many records from those decades are (and one of my jobs was as a DJ back then, so I got a LOT of promotional copies).

Don’t take my word for it. Try it out for yourself. This is just my own experience.

Class D amps need a tube preamp or a solid state Class A input stage that adds 2nd order harmonic distortion to the signal. Linear power supplies can also add 2nd order harmonic distortion. 

These statements are false. I can imagine some amps (regardless of class of operation) for which adding a tube preamp or the like is the band-aid needed for their dryness. But if the amplifier is properly designed it needs nothing of the sort. The second statement is just- wrong.

I too have owned quite a few class D amps over the decades, including the PS Audio M700s, which were decent but not enough umph for my big room. The 2 that remain are the EVS 1200 dual mono single chassis amp, a Ric Schultz (Tweak Audio) effort based on dual IcePower AS 1200 modules, (same modules as PS Audio uses in their M1200s) but with a ton of his pixie dust sprinkled throughout. I also have a LSA Voyager Gan350 (dual mono GaN fet boards) that I preferred at the time, but when reconfiguring my rack from vertical to horizontal I managed to take out a module and have not yet gotten it fixed, but the 1200 sounds so incredible after a complete cable change that I am quite content, for now

hth

I had some old class D amps and never stuck with them.  The LSA Voyager GAN 359 wpc that I had modded sounded nothing like my old class D amps.  It was light years better.  I have Pass Labs X250.5 and X150.5 amps, Parasound JC1 monblocks and Ampzilla monoblocks.  The Voyager GAN perhaps gives up a little liw end grunt to my  solid state amps but bests them all on midrange clarity and upper end extension.  They are all excellent amps.  The SS amps have fine midrange clarity and extension as well.  These newer class D amps are not your fathers class D amps.  

It's all about good sound and not what class it's in. In all Class designs there are good and bad sounding amps. You just need to try before you buy.

Class D amps need a tube preamp or a solid state Class A input stage that adds 2nd order harmonic distortion to the signal. Linear power supplies can also add 2nd order harmonic distortion. 

If you get a stock module from Hypex or Ice Power with the Hypex or Ice Power stock switching power supply...and combine it with a preamp that is adding nothing to the signal path....such as a Benchmark DAC or Benchmark Preamp...you will get that sterile lean Class D sound. 

Class D is sounding much better because brands such as Jeff Rowland have figured out how to add the right distortion amounts to the signal path. I believe Jeff Rowland & PS Audio use old Ice Power modules....so it's not like the modules are necessarily sounding better....but the implementations are definitely becoming more musical.   

I have a class D Classe amp that sounds anything but sterile or hard. It is very dimensional and detailed. It's a good match for my system and I'm happy with the made for each other pre and power amp. My advice is to ignore the data the reviews or the type. Listen to what sounds best in your price range

NAD really are exceptional sounding. I have a few different systems that I listen to daily and there’s something magical that the NAD Class D does in comparison. Definitely midrange centric as someone else pointed out but also very accurate, almost analytical. Definitely go amp shopping and see what you like. 

No experience with NAD class d, but I'll throw out a positive recommendation for the hypex amp by ATI I run in my mixed HT/HiFi system. I keep expecting it to be the weak link when I do critical music listening, but it has proven very scalable in my system. Size and running temps were major considerations in my process, but I've been very pleasantly surprised with the musical ability of this amp.

Stereophile’s review of the HiFi Rose GaN Class D integrated and ASR’s positive review of the DIY Nilai500DIY Amplifier make the new breed of Class D sound more interesting.  The DIY Nilai500DIY is something that might be well suited to my garage/outdoor system instead of the big class AB monos I have out there now.

I understand Bruno Putzeys, a digital mathematical wizard who worked for Phillips and went on to found Mola Mola  has redefined Class D and is offering AMAZING SQ. Have never heard but many love their mono blocks. Maybe out of your budget however. 17k for 400 WPC.  I have their Tambaqui DAC which is simply incredible. I also just Makua preamp which is Class A and IS the BOMB 

Stereophile just released a review of the new HiFi Rose GaN Class D integrated that concluded the sound was essentially flawless and the value hard to beat. Not to mention the good looks! Just saying….

A friend of mine bought several mono blocks class D amps to drive his Maggie's.  They were in the Red Dragon class.  He has a Yggdrisal DAC Freya pre amp. He went with Two Vidars. His reason was the class was not as accurate in the high range, mid range because they were harsh in comparison to class AB. There was a velvet tone to voices not found in class D. I noticed this velvet in the mids on my DYI speakers when he was nice and let me try his when I was shopping.  He listens to electric guitar so that was important the upper range is smooth, not biting. The Vidar lacked some slam as mono blocks compared to the class D, but way made up on the low end and over all highs. Your speakers might react differently. I know class D can sound very good. I went the other direction with class AB tube on less demanding speakers.

NAD would probably be the only company I would consider a Class D amplifier from.  They have some really innovative hybrid designs and have a huge value for the money.  I used to only buy NAD.  This last time I went back to Class A and Parasound and it is much more musical to my ears.  plenty of reserve power without having to build power creates more dynamics and more realism.  Chances are I will never go back to class D...

When looking at major brand Class D amplifiers that use amplifier modules from the big three manufacturers (Hypex, Purifi and ICE), be sure that you're getting the very latest and best sounding designs of these boards.

It is our opinion that the Hypex Nilai 500 and Hypex NCx500 (not NC500) are the current Best in Class.  Be sure to take a look at the reviews on these products.

The power supply used in these designs is also a very significant contributor to the overall audio performance.  Be sure that the power supply is one that has been designed or approved by the board manufacturer to be able to fully power the modules.  One common issue with third-party designs is they use multiple amplifier boards with a single power supply, which can severely limit the power output when all channels are driven.  It’s important to read the specs carefully. 

Deer Creek Audio is an authorized Hypex dealer.  We sell Hypex amplifiers that are pure Hypex designs with proven performance and reliability.  Check us out at deercreekaudio.com

I am an electrical engineer and listened to a number of class D amps in the 1970s. As others have said, they sounded awful. For decades I harbored this opinion that all class D amps chop up the signal and don't put it back together well. Several years ago I listened to a Bel Canto e1x class D amp. It was as neutral, transparent, and sweet as any class AB or class A amp I'd ever listened to. Class D technology has come of age. 

I have been looking into a 3 channel Hypex Ncore Class D amp that has a number of very good reviews made by a company called Buckeye. I like there prices also. 

+1 @atmasphere and yes Class D can drive most any speaker well so best of both worlds there.  
 

These are two key factors that have kept me firmly planted in Class D amp land for a number of years now. 

@atmasphere.....Very nicely stated. Class D detractors are obviously people that have not Heard the NEW group of class D electronics. I've ditched virtually all my beloved tube gear.  I bring out Mr. Decware from time to time with my tube pre amp...but I just love the sound of class D done Right!....ps. I've also noticed how friendly Class D is with All my speaker brands.

I have a Boxem Arthur 4215 which uses Purifi Eigentakt modules. I picked it since my KEF LS50 Metas need a bit of power. It is a really great balance that provides more than enough power at 4ohms, clean, with a neutral balance. In other words the amp is not really heard in the system at all as my room tuning is really the key.

My understanding was class D never really took off, despite the power efficiency due to the HF noise caused by the PWM. Times change things improve but I can’t find much about how they have mitigated this, in fact an article in EETimes refers to how the tests performed for THD etc are quite irrelevant in a digital amp and quoted figures may be very different in real life. In essence, the way of testing makes them look better than they are. This may be true but do they sound good? We all know vinyl is technically an inferior medium but I certainly prefer it’s sound.

@nosleeptilldownload Your impression above is incorrect. Class D really took off and is used nearly everywhere.

What makes an amplifier musical or not is its distortion and nothing else! Literally the distortion signature of any amplifier is also its ’sonic signature’. The trick to getting an amplifier to sound musical (for example many tube amplifiers) is to have a benign distortion signature which the ear does not find irritating.

Since this is all about understanding that fact and also engineering, its possible to build an amp that will sound like music if you have the expertise.

Cutting to the bottom line there are class D amps out there that sound every bit as musical as the best class A tube or solid state amps. Because you’ve not heard an example of that yet does not mean they do not exist! IME class D amps vary as much in sound as tube amps do- from the worst to the very best.

I’ve been playing a set of class D amps in my own system the last 2 years and do not miss the class A triode tube amps they replaced at all.

Based on the OP musical taste and high sensitivity a class D may just be the ticket ....

Regards ...

@nosleeptilldownload

Don’t Audio advisor and Crutchfield sell NAD?

If so, you can get one with a trial period and refund option.

Listen for yourself in your room and decide !

I have owned the Nuforce Reference 9 SE mono amps for about 6 years.  Bob Smith did the TDSS level 3 upgrades to them about  5 years ago and he then did the latest CapCellBar upgrades to them about 3 years ago.  The level 3 upgrades were very significant, but the CCB upgrades were phenomenal on top of the level 3.  I added the SR Purple fuses to them about 1 year ago.  They had the SR Black, then SR Orange prior to that.  All were easily noticeable and much better sounding in all areas than their prior sound.  These are class D amps from about 2008 or so originally.  The upgrades have made them superior to every amp I've heard them against in most all areas and with several different speakers.  I use them with VMPS RM40 BCSE w/MLS cabinets and all the upgrades except the OXO.  

Bob

OP. For clarification,  class D amps are not "digital. "

@nosleeptilldownload 

I think you have to start with the premise that whatever amp you are now using, a different amp will likely sound different...maybe better and maybe not.  And the reasons for the difference we hear are many...and class d vs class??? is just one of the reasons.  Another is that you may prefer a totally different sound profile from what I prefer.

With that in mind, it is important that you try whatever you are considering in your system with the potential to return if the sound isn't too your liking...and there is nothing wrong with starting out with a class d as there are a number of good choices from good companies...and if you like one of the amps you bring home, class d or not...stop looking and just enjoy it for a while!

Thank you all, some really good info, even products out of the price I’m willing to drop atm are valid as I can look at how they are implementing the technology, which is I think where it can fall down. 
@oldaudiophile I listen loud as often as I can get away with it, I do say if I don’t feel like I’m sitting in Hammersmith Odean pass the remote. Doesn’t help the tinnitus from playing lead guitar at unholy volumes though. The VU meters are just eye candy, I’ll drop them in a heartbeat if needed. I wanted the Yamaha AS1100, brilliant amp and a looker to boot but they replaced it and hiked the price. 
@jeffseight Thank you, shame but a bit of a hop from Dorset. I’ll look out for the feedback though, I’m never hurried in a purchase.

@mitch2 I grew up on technics class AA and couldn’t be shifted from their amps, until everything went digital, threw my lot in with CD and gave my albums to my sister and slowly fell out of love with music. It At the time I thought it was the equipment I could afford, everything went downhill sometime in the mid 90s, my current Onkyo while a compromise with the surround sound, is a very good powerful amps for the money, did have issues with the HDMI and mine now throws an error and turns off in the heat of the summer if I give it the beans, it’s a cooling issue. I probably spent 6-8 months listening to different amps in different listening rooms. I was disappointed to hear Onkyo went under and are now part of Pioneer. 
As others have mentioned, weight is a factor. I have a chronic illness that vocal leave me nailed to the sofa or in bed for days, I can’t lift and clean around this amp anymore, it’s not even a beast like some own. My wife refuses to touch any of my HiFi or guitars, I’m happy with that, even if i make inhuman noises shifting stuff.

Sevenoaks audio have agreed if I want to demo this NAD they will organise a courier to pick it up if I don’t like it, that’s customer service right there.

Apologies for the late reply, I live a complicated little life. 
 

thank you all again

I have been a class A / AB Tube guy since I started in this hobby years ago....Now I'm strictly class D Integrated...Aavik u-150 . This amp made Steve Huff put his Pass and Nagra gear out to pasture. Aavik makes the creme de la creme of class D gear...Then comes GATO, also from Denmark at around 4K ...The  Peachtree GaN 400 for $2500. This is an awsome Smooth Musical amp...but use a tube preamp with it. Starcrimson from Orchard Audio is inexpensive and also very musical.  Good Luck. Class D is here ! A/AB is old school and the people blasting Class D haven't heard how it actually is smoother and more musical and won't keep your A/C running constantly. Good Luck to you..

I think the question is how Class D compares to the better Class A/B amplifiers at the OP's budget.  

I think the OP should ask, how do other integrateds sound in this budget, rather than worry about amp class. :)

My Linkwitz LX521.4 system uses the latest iteration of the HYPEX Class-D amp modules, 5 for each channel, 10 total (!). Without Class-D technology, I would need 5 (!) power amplifiers to drive the LX speakers (one for each speaker cone): simply unaffordable. Class-D amplification gives you a LOT of bang for the buck!

My preamp is a custom-built SUPRATEK Grange, a two chassis affair with 16 vacuum tubes total. My preferred output tube is the Takatsugi 300B single-ended triode. To your question: I find the combination of tubes and Class-D utterly satisfying, whereby the tubes provide me with air and soundstage-precision and the amps with very fast rhythmic response and amazing dynamics. For me, this is a final combo. Class-D amps have come a very long way (the concept stems from the 1950s) and have overcome all the historic shortcomings I am aware of. I think in a good Audio system, the preamp plays a more important role than the amp (unless the latter is really bad, compromising all other components), while of course, the source (an excellent TT, Tonearm and cartridge; and/or a state-of-the-art DAC), and first and foremost the loudspeakers are of much greater impact on the overall musical experience. But again, Class-D has definitely arrived. Coincidentally, my first higher-end system was built around a NAD integrated: solid performance overall, but a bit - how can I phrase this - "boring". This is by no means meant to be a negative, mind you. I am sure our fellow forists (is that a word?) will have ample recommendations for you and your budget. Best of luck!

I think the question is how Class D compares to the better Class A/B amplifiers at the OP's budget.  

I’d much rather listen to street noise than the 2d plastic garbage of any class d amp I’ve ever heard.

@jbuhl - good catch, yes the quote is mistakenly out of context.

Nevertheless, in my system and to my ears, the NC1200 amps did not compare favorably to the Class A and AB amps I was using, for the reasons stated.  I don't know whether NC1200 is now considered older technology but at the time they were around $10K/pair and were being touted as a replacement for Class A.

I have not tried GAN or Ice modules, so I cannot comment on those but all of the Class D versions seem to have their supporters.  Ralph's GAN amps would be interesting to try but not enough power for me.  As stated by several here, the best approach for the OP is to listen and select what he/she believes sounds the best. 

@nosleeptilldownload I couldn't agree more with the statement that your hearing trumps all specs and arguments from critics (professional or otherwise). I also couldn't agree less with your statement that "vinyl is technically an inferior medium". Of course, many things are relative. Given a relatively good turntable with reasonably good arm & cartridge, proper set-up, decent phono stage, clean records and good recordings, incorporated into a relatively good sound system, I haven't heard anything yet that significantly bests the fidelity of good, clean, well recorded vinyl, even in direct A/B comparisons. Admittedly, I haven't heard 7 figure systems catering to digital sound, but I have spent serious seat-time with 6 figure such systems. Some ears prefer digital, some vinyl, and that's just fine. To each his own! Personally, I rely on digital mostly for convenience (dinner parties; doing chores around the house; etc.) but turn to vinyl when I and audiophile friends can park our butts in the proverbial sweat spot(s), enjoy a nice beverage or two, maybe some snacks and just kick back, relax and, as the Dobbie Brothers would say: "Listen to the Music".

As for VU meters, yes, they are very cool. I own a MAC, or should I say, my MAC owns me? My opinion on this is not to be swayed by VU meters. Some are accurate; some, not so much. Regardless, they do nothing for sound fidelity.

With regard to NAD and/or Class D amps in general, I confess I haven't spent much seat-time with many. My last experience was with a 60-watt NAD integrated (can't remember model number), Martin Logan Motion 60xti, Spendor A7, Totem Hawk, Paradigm Prestige 85F & 95F and Qobuz premium streaming service in a relatively good sound room. Finally whittled down the speaker choices to the ML and listened to those for about a half hour or so. After about 10 or 15 minutes at concert volume, the sound became fatiguing. After about 25 minutes and an oncoming low-level headache (my audiophile friend experienced the same) it was time thank the shop owner for his time and get on my way. A couple weeks later, those ML sounded nothing short of fantastic when paired with a Simaudio Moon NEO 340IX and a Marantz CD6005, using the same music and also at concert volume, albeit in another shop's sound room. Was it the sound room influence that made the difference? The Marantz CD? The difference in amplification? I was and still am inclined to think it was the amp.

I've read that Class D and/or other hybrid designs are the future. Maybe so. I don't know much, if anything, about that kind of stuff but I do know what my ears like. Let YOUR EARS be the judge!

I use class D amps in all my car systems, but not in my homes.

The Warp1 from LSA would be one to consider in your price range…

https://www.underwoodhifi.com/products/lsa-amplifiers

My 2 cents for what it’s worth....I sold a Bryston 14B SST and bought an Axiom Audio ADA 1500 in a 4 ch version for tri-amping my speakers. It’s class D with a massive toroidal transformer and huge filter caps and it sounds much better than the Bryston or any other A/B amp I have heard. An amazingly transparent, detailed and neutral sounding amp. IMO. I wouldn’t hesitate to try the NAD.

Crown xti.anthem m1 marantz.d sonic.rotel1092.ps audio 1200.all class d.ice from parts express build your own.teac and more have class d.they are getting better since they first started .there are many models of cars find the one you like.for me it's corvette best bang for the buck.

I am currently using a Peachtree Gan400 paired with a Schitt Freya + and I am driving a pair of Magnepan LRS+ . I have found the system to be very musical and accurate.

Class D with a good power supply can sound wonderful. Try to listen to as many in your price range as you can and let your ears decide.

All the best.

@jeffseight 

What is your room number and time of demonstarion during Saturday?

I could be there.

Thomas

As @fuzztone said, no. Anyone who outright dismisses them is likely either not aware of how class D has changed or made up their minds based on other's subjective reports but have probably never even heard one. 

As your budget is in pounds you likely will be unable to attend my Class D

shootout this weekend in Seattle at the PNW Audiofest. Too bad. I will be offering

a blind listening session with  3 Class D amps vs a Class A integrated. A minute or

two in  my room would answer your question. Check back post event in a week!

I have no need for a class D amp and never had one, so what I said earlier was strictly based on some comments made earlier here. However based on some valid positive takes about it since, I can understand why in the proper setting a class D amp may be just what you need. Goes to show, to each his own, problem is to figure it out.

The first class d amps had some problems. But over the years they have become better and better. Perhaps the ultra costly non class D amps are stil better. But contemporary class D amps are good enough that the same advice on comparing them as for non class D amps is true. Listen to them, preferably blind. Pick the amp you like best. Then check if the amp is class D(or AB or A).