Should I steer clear of class D amps

You joined in 2017. There have been dozens of threads on this subject since then which I encourage you to read. There are some points I want to make:

• Your hearing trumps all specs and arguments and critics
• I like some Class D a lot better than I like some megabuck Class A
• Last I looked, NAD was using a hybrid Class D amp in some models which is quite innovative. It’s almost a class H amp, with a little Class A in the middle.

Very true and I am looking back but this amp only hit the shelves a week or so ago, Cambridge audio recently introduced some tech called Hypex Ncore (the word hype isn’t lost on me) nothing more than sales pitch about that, nothing meaningful.

Im not being lazy, this is a new amp and despite asking NAD a bunch of questions via email I’ve had no response. 
Ears do trump all but due to personal circumstances I really want to limit having to return anything, I also am unable to go demo one.

I’ll look into the hybrid tech you mention, I didn’t know about that, thanks for the pointer, it’s not mentioned in the blurb for the C3050 though. 

Check out the Music Fidelity 2si.  A good sounding line level integrated amplifier in your price range I believe. Class A/B. 

OP:

Well most of your post seems related to Class-D in general, and the title was about Class D, not NAD, and those hesitations and questions are roads well traveled here.

NAD has promoted a hybrid-Class D in some amps, but not others, so I’m not sure if it was an experiment that didn’t go far or if it’s become core, or if there wasn’t enough benefit vs the basic Hypex Class D amplifier designs they are using.

Honestly I thought they did a poor job of promoting the hybrid part. My desktop 3020D for instance is one of those hybrid designs and it’s great but I don’t really challenge it.

My suggestion, which was implied in my first post, is to ignore 100% of the literature on Class D and actually listen to the amp you want to buy, preferably with the speakers you want to buy.

If it helps, I went from Parasound to Class D to Luxman.  At no point in using the Class D amp did I think "Oh, well this is a problem unique to class D", or "this sounds like class D."  so I encourage anyone thinking of buying to stop thinking Class D vs. the world and focus on budget, features and sound quality that you can actually hear. 

I am an old audiophile and must admit to being suspicious of this completely new class if amp when released, particularly as they a flea weight.

When first released there was a lot of hype about perfect sound and then a collapse as everyone realized they just didn’t sound that good. Then year by year they got better sounding. I have heard some contemporary Class D in my system. They can sound very good.

But the thing is, it depends on exactly how much you have to spend, your musical taste and system. Say you have $X to spend… maybe there is a class D that would be the very best sounding amp for you… but had your budget been $2X then some class AB would have been the best for you.

So, I would not stay clear of Class D. You need to carefully audition any high end amp to be sure it has the sound you want and fits in with your system.

Class D is good stuff these days. Try it and find out for yourself if interested.

I started with Class D about 14 years ago in part as an experiment prior to adding more tubes and never looked back. It’s even better technology today. All tubes are now gone. No regrets.

I run a Cambridge Evo 150 and an older Bel Canto c5i. Both are always dead quiet …zero noise issues if that helps put your concerns to rest.

Have heard other NAD Class D and can highly recommend.  The new integrated with the meters caught my eye and looks way cool. 
 

If you can certainly audition especially at your rig.

I ran a PS Audio S300 with a tube pre with much satisfaction. Moved to class A/B just to give it a try as I found a deal on a good amp and my speakers are bit sparkely at high levels. But would not hesitate to go back as most of my listening is at lower levels these days. PS Audio has a try and by in the USA but not sure about across the pond. Read the reviews on the Wyred4sound offerings as they have much experience with class D implementations and have units in your price range.

I have even seen the PS Audio M700 Mono blocks used in your price range.

My S300 ran really cool temp.

Also, being that you appear to be in the UK see if you can get in front of a Quad Artera Stereo amp. They can be had used , in the USA anyway, in your price range. Class A/B, but great bang for the buck amp.

@ghdprentice +1, very good answer.

A few years ago, I moved from some nice sounding class A amps to Bruno Putzeys' Class D NC1200 monoblocks that were all the rage at the time.  Unfortunately, as mentioned by @ghdprentice, "everyone realized they just didn’t sound that good", including me.  In essence, they just did not sound natural to me wrt high frequencies, decay, and spatial ambience of the venue and between musicians.  Those amps made me think of individual musicians each playing in their own isolated sound booth. 

I have nothing against class D, but have not heard any examples perform at the same level as the better class A and AB amps I have owned.  However, I do like them powering my subs.

You clearly know what you like - "I currently have an Onkyo TXNR 636 which has served very well."  Therefore, take your time, go listen to some amplifiers, and then pick what sounds good to you, not what others say you should like, or what has the coolest-looking VU meters.

I have owned a Rogue and a Carey Integrated. Both class D and both were sterile and uninvolving. After that, I stay away from class D amps.

FWIW currently using a Luxman 505UX Mark2.

Just my experience.

Regards,

John

I've been using a Pass X250.8 and recently XA30.8 over the last likely 8 years or so at this point.  I really liked both amps.

Recently I wanted to try a Class D GaNFET amp and tried the Atma-Sphere Class D monos.  I've had them for about a year and ended up selling my XA30.8 for them.  They have a very 'Pass Like' sound, midrange centric, natural tone, a hint of warmth, no fatigue, great imaging, etc...   I was amazed how similar they sounded to my Pass amp.   I think they do some things better and I also liked a few things better with my Pass amp, but in the end I found them similar and when you throw in they do not even get warm, weight like 14 pounds, I was happy to keep them.     

If you have not heard the latest Class D offerings, it is worth a listen at least.   You still may not like them, but after owning two others over the last 10 years (one for likely a week or two as I couldn't stand it), things have definitely changed.   I would love to hear the new Hypex Nilai and the latest EIGENTAKT modules.

Do not fear Class D, they are not like the days of yore when D sounded harsh and bright. Some really good stuff out there and as @ghdprentice did you need to hear them in your system. I love the look of the 3050LE but I am yet to hear one.

From posters above it sounds kind of like if it is too good to be true, then Class D may fall in that category.

I've no familiarity with current NAD products. Those I owned were excellent values. "Class D" always sounded a bit like snake oil to me. The data seems to show it.

As to tubes sucking up power, I recently installed a vintage Sophia EL 34-based amp (35/channel) and noticed no change in my electric bill. Remember to trn off the exhaust fan when you leave the bathroom.

Had I the $ I'd have bought this: https://www.primaluna-usa.com/primaluna-evo-100-tube-power-amplifier or, since I know an excellent tech, this: https://www.amazon.com/Willsenton-R8-Integrated-Amplifier-Headphone/dp/B08133TH98/ref=sr_1_3?hvadid=604661045408&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9007539&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=5062205048887958487&hvtargid=kwd-1326307720789&hydadcr=14359_13354852&keywords=willsenton+r8+tube+amplifier&qid=1687221053&sr=8-3&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.765d4786-5719-48b9-b588-eab9385652d5

 Unfortunately, as mentioned by @ghdprentice, "everyone realized they just didn’t sound that good", including me

out of context?

What?

Class D" always sounded a bit like snake oil to me. The data seems to show it.

From posters above it sounds kind of like if it is too good to be true, then Class D may fall in that category.

I think in this case "too good to be true" would be if Class D was hyped as the best sounding amplifiers always. None of us who think that the current crop of Class D amps are very competitive say that. Personally I just feel they’ve reached a level of maturity in the performance that it’s no longer possible to distinguish them as anything other than amplifiers.

If you try to prejudge them by class you’ll do yourself a disservice. As I pointed out, I have had and have left Class D amps. Not because of the class but because of the amp.

I bought a ClassD amp mainly because I wanted an amp I could lift. I was dubious at first but took the plunge and got a Nord Purifi dual mono Class D with Spargo op amps putting out 250wpc. I got a huge surprise when it had burned in for about 100 hours. It was dynamic, open with a solid bass and transparent without glare. My conclusion was that it was as good if not better than any amp I have owned including some ARC, Rogue, EAR and Krell models. As you seem to be in the Uk call Colin North the CEO at Nord Acoustics. He is knowledgeable and easy to talk to and has models well within your price range. Ignore the Class D naysayers on this forum and try Class D for yourself.

No.

The first class d amps had some problems. But over the years they have become better and better. Perhaps the ultra costly non class D amps are stil better. But contemporary class D amps are good enough that the same advice on comparing them as for non class D amps is true. Listen to them, preferably blind. Pick the amp you like best. Then check if the amp is class D(or AB or A).

I have no need for a class D amp and never had one, so what I said earlier was strictly based on some comments made earlier here. However based on some valid positive takes about it since, I can understand why in the proper setting a class D amp may be just what you need. Goes to show, to each his own, problem is to figure it out.

As your budget is in pounds you likely will be unable to attend my Class D

shootout this weekend in Seattle at the PNW Audiofest. Too bad. I will be offering

a blind listening session with  3 Class D amps vs a Class A integrated. A minute or

two in  my room would answer your question. Check back post event in a week!

As @fuzztone said, no. Anyone who outright dismisses them is likely either not aware of how class D has changed or made up their minds based on other's subjective reports but have probably never even heard one. 

@jeffseight 

What is your room number and time of demonstarion during Saturday?

I could be there.

Thomas

Class D with a good power supply can sound wonderful. Try to listen to as many in your price range as you can and let your ears decide.

All the best.

I am currently using a Peachtree Gan400 paired with a Schitt Freya + and I am driving a pair of Magnepan LRS+ . I have found the system to be very musical and accurate.

Crown xti.anthem m1 marantz.d sonic.rotel1092.ps audio 1200.all class d.ice from parts express build your own.teac and more have class d.they are getting better since they first started .there are many models of cars find the one you like.for me it's corvette best bang for the buck.

My 2 cents for what it’s worth....I sold a Bryston 14B SST and bought an Axiom Audio ADA 1500 in a 4 ch version for tri-amping my speakers. It’s class D with a massive toroidal transformer and huge filter caps and it sounds much better than the Bryston or any other A/B amp I have heard. An amazingly transparent, detailed and neutral sounding amp. IMO. I wouldn’t hesitate to try the NAD.

The Warp1 from LSA would be one to consider in your price range…

https://www.underwoodhifi.com/products/lsa-amplifiers

I use class D amps in all my car systems, but not in my homes.

@nosleeptilldownload I couldn't agree more with the statement that your hearing trumps all specs and arguments from critics (professional or otherwise). I also couldn't agree less with your statement that "vinyl is technically an inferior medium". Of course, many things are relative. Given a relatively good turntable with reasonably good arm & cartridge, proper set-up, decent phono stage, clean records and good recordings, incorporated into a relatively good sound system, I haven't heard anything yet that significantly bests the fidelity of good, clean, well recorded vinyl, even in direct A/B comparisons. Admittedly, I haven't heard 7 figure systems catering to digital sound, but I have spent serious seat-time with 6 figure such systems. Some ears prefer digital, some vinyl, and that's just fine. To each his own! Personally, I rely on digital mostly for convenience (dinner parties; doing chores around the house; etc.) but turn to vinyl when I and audiophile friends can park our butts in the proverbial sweat spot(s), enjoy a nice beverage or two, maybe some snacks and just kick back, relax and, as the Dobbie Brothers would say: "Listen to the Music".

As for VU meters, yes, they are very cool. I own a MAC, or should I say, my MAC owns me? My opinion on this is not to be swayed by VU meters. Some are accurate; some, not so much. Regardless, they do nothing for sound fidelity.

With regard to NAD and/or Class D amps in general, I confess I haven't spent much seat-time with many. My last experience was with a 60-watt NAD integrated (can't remember model number), Martin Logan Motion 60xti, Spendor A7, Totem Hawk, Paradigm Prestige 85F & 95F and Qobuz premium streaming service in a relatively good sound room. Finally whittled down the speaker choices to the ML and listened to those for about a half hour or so. After about 10 or 15 minutes at concert volume, the sound became fatiguing. After about 25 minutes and an oncoming low-level headache (my audiophile friend experienced the same) it was time thank the shop owner for his time and get on my way. A couple weeks later, those ML sounded nothing short of fantastic when paired with a Simaudio Moon NEO 340IX and a Marantz CD6005, using the same music and also at concert volume, albeit in another shop's sound room. Was it the sound room influence that made the difference? The Marantz CD? The difference in amplification? I was and still am inclined to think it was the amp.

I've read that Class D and/or other hybrid designs are the future. Maybe so. I don't know much, if anything, about that kind of stuff but I do know what my ears like. Let YOUR EARS be the judge!

@jbuhl - good catch, yes the quote is mistakenly out of context.

Nevertheless, in my system and to my ears, the NC1200 amps did not compare favorably to the Class A and AB amps I was using, for the reasons stated.  I don't know whether NC1200 is now considered older technology but at the time they were around $10K/pair and were being touted as a replacement for Class A.

I have not tried GAN or Ice modules, so I cannot comment on those but all of the Class D versions seem to have their supporters.  Ralph's GAN amps would be interesting to try but not enough power for me.  As stated by several here, the best approach for the OP is to listen and select what he/she believes sounds the best. 

I’d much rather listen to street noise than the 2d plastic garbage of any class d amp I’ve ever heard.

I think the question is how Class D compares to the better Class A/B amplifiers at the OP's budget.  

My Linkwitz LX521.4 system uses the latest iteration of the HYPEX Class-D amp modules, 5 for each channel, 10 total (!). Without Class-D technology, I would need 5 (!) power amplifiers to drive the LX speakers (one for each speaker cone): simply unaffordable. Class-D amplification gives you a LOT of bang for the buck!

My preamp is a custom-built SUPRATEK Grange, a two chassis affair with 16 vacuum tubes total. My preferred output tube is the Takatsugi 300B single-ended triode. To your question: I find the combination of tubes and Class-D utterly satisfying, whereby the tubes provide me with air and soundstage-precision and the amps with very fast rhythmic response and amazing dynamics. For me, this is a final combo. Class-D amps have come a very long way (the concept stems from the 1950s) and have overcome all the historic shortcomings I am aware of. I think in a good Audio system, the preamp plays a more important role than the amp (unless the latter is really bad, compromising all other components), while of course, the source (an excellent TT, Tonearm and cartridge; and/or a state-of-the-art DAC), and first and foremost the loudspeakers are of much greater impact on the overall musical experience. But again, Class-D has definitely arrived. Coincidentally, my first higher-end system was built around a NAD integrated: solid performance overall, but a bit - how can I phrase this - "boring". This is by no means meant to be a negative, mind you. I am sure our fellow forists (is that a word?) will have ample recommendations for you and your budget. Best of luck!

I think the question is how Class D compares to the better Class A/B amplifiers at the OP's budget.  

I think the OP should ask, how do other integrateds sound in this budget, rather than worry about amp class. :)

I have been a class A / AB Tube guy since I started in this hobby years ago....Now I'm strictly class D Integrated...Aavik u-150 . This amp made Steve Huff put his Pass and Nagra gear out to pasture. Aavik makes the creme de la creme of class D gear...Then comes GATO, also from Denmark at around 4K ...The  Peachtree GaN 400 for $2500. This is an awsome Smooth Musical amp...but use a tube preamp with it. Starcrimson from Orchard Audio is inexpensive and also very musical.  Good Luck. Class D is here ! A/AB is old school and the people blasting Class D haven't heard how it actually is smoother and more musical and won't keep your A/C running constantly. Good Luck to you..

Thank you all, some really good info, even products out of the price I’m willing to drop atm are valid as I can look at how they are implementing the technology, which is I think where it can fall down. 
@oldaudiophile I listen loud as often as I can get away with it, I do say if I don’t feel like I’m sitting in Hammersmith Odean pass the remote. Doesn’t help the tinnitus from playing lead guitar at unholy volumes though. The VU meters are just eye candy, I’ll drop them in a heartbeat if needed. I wanted the Yamaha AS1100, brilliant amp and a looker to boot but they replaced it and hiked the price. 
@jeffseight Thank you, shame but a bit of a hop from Dorset. I’ll look out for the feedback though, I’m never hurried in a purchase.

@mitch2 I grew up on technics class AA and couldn’t be shifted from their amps, until everything went digital, threw my lot in with CD and gave my albums to my sister and slowly fell out of love with music. It At the time I thought it was the equipment I could afford, everything went downhill sometime in the mid 90s, my current Onkyo while a compromise with the surround sound, is a very good powerful amps for the money, did have issues with the HDMI and mine now throws an error and turns off in the heat of the summer if I give it the beans, it’s a cooling issue. I probably spent 6-8 months listening to different amps in different listening rooms. I was disappointed to hear Onkyo went under and are now part of Pioneer. 
As others have mentioned, weight is a factor. I have a chronic illness that vocal leave me nailed to the sofa or in bed for days, I can’t lift and clean around this amp anymore, it’s not even a beast like some own. My wife refuses to touch any of my HiFi or guitars, I’m happy with that, even if i make inhuman noises shifting stuff.

Sevenoaks audio have agreed if I want to demo this NAD they will organise a courier to pick it up if I don’t like it, that’s customer service right there.

Apologies for the late reply, I live a complicated little life. 
 

thank you all again

@nosleeptilldownload 

I think you have to start with the premise that whatever amp you are now using, a different amp will likely sound different...maybe better and maybe not.  And the reasons for the difference we hear are many...and class d vs class??? is just one of the reasons.  Another is that you may prefer a totally different sound profile from what I prefer.

With that in mind, it is important that you try whatever you are considering in your system with the potential to return if the sound isn't too your liking...and there is nothing wrong with starting out with a class d as there are a number of good choices from good companies...and if you like one of the amps you bring home, class d or not...stop looking and just enjoy it for a while!

OP. For clarification,  class D amps are not "digital. "

I have owned the Nuforce Reference 9 SE mono amps for about 6 years.  Bob Smith did the TDSS level 3 upgrades to them about  5 years ago and he then did the latest CapCellBar upgrades to them about 3 years ago.  The level 3 upgrades were very significant, but the CCB upgrades were phenomenal on top of the level 3.  I added the SR Purple fuses to them about 1 year ago.  They had the SR Black, then SR Orange prior to that.  All were easily noticeable and much better sounding in all areas than their prior sound.  These are class D amps from about 2008 or so originally.  The upgrades have made them superior to every amp I've heard them against in most all areas and with several different speakers.  I use them with VMPS RM40 BCSE w/MLS cabinets and all the upgrades except the OXO.  

Bob

@nosleeptilldownload

Don’t Audio advisor and Crutchfield sell NAD?

If so, you can get one with a trial period and refund option.

Listen for yourself in your room and decide !

Based on the OP musical taste and high sensitivity a class D may just be the ticket ....

Regards ...

My understanding was class D never really took off, despite the power efficiency due to the HF noise caused by the PWM. Times change things improve but I can’t find much about how they have mitigated this, in fact an article in EETimes refers to how the tests performed for THD etc are quite irrelevant in a digital amp and quoted figures may be very different in real life. In essence, the way of testing makes them look better than they are. This may be true but do they sound good? We all know vinyl is technically an inferior medium but I certainly prefer it’s sound.

@nosleeptilldownload Your impression above is incorrect. Class D really took off and is used nearly everywhere.

What makes an amplifier musical or not is its distortion and nothing else! Literally the distortion signature of any amplifier is also its ’sonic signature’. The trick to getting an amplifier to sound musical (for example many tube amplifiers) is to have a benign distortion signature which the ear does not find irritating.

Since this is all about understanding that fact and also engineering, its possible to build an amp that will sound like music if you have the expertise.

Cutting to the bottom line there are class D amps out there that sound every bit as musical as the best class A tube or solid state amps. Because you’ve not heard an example of that yet does not mean they do not exist! IME class D amps vary as much in sound as tube amps do- from the worst to the very best.

I’ve been playing a set of class D amps in my own system the last 2 years and do not miss the class A triode tube amps they replaced at all.

I have a Boxem Arthur 4215 which uses Purifi Eigentakt modules. I picked it since my KEF LS50 Metas need a bit of power. It is a really great balance that provides more than enough power at 4ohms, clean, with a neutral balance. In other words the amp is not really heard in the system at all as my room tuning is really the key.

@atmasphere.....Very nicely stated. Class D detractors are obviously people that have not Heard the NEW group of class D electronics. I've ditched virtually all my beloved tube gear.  I bring out Mr. Decware from time to time with my tube pre amp...but I just love the sound of class D done Right!....ps. I've also noticed how friendly Class D is with All my speaker brands.

+1 @atmasphere and yes Class D can drive most any speaker well so best of both worlds there.  
 

These are two key factors that have kept me firmly planted in Class D amp land for a number of years now. 

I have been looking into a 3 channel Hypex Ncore Class D amp that has a number of very good reviews made by a company called Buckeye. I like there prices also. 

I am an electrical engineer and listened to a number of class D amps in the 1970s. As others have said, they sounded awful. For decades I harbored this opinion that all class D amps chop up the signal and don't put it back together well. Several years ago I listened to a Bel Canto e1x class D amp. It was as neutral, transparent, and sweet as any class AB or class A amp I'd ever listened to. Class D technology has come of age. 

When looking at major brand Class D amplifiers that use amplifier modules from the big three manufacturers (Hypex, Purifi and ICE), be sure that you're getting the very latest and best sounding designs of these boards.

It is our opinion that the Hypex Nilai 500 and Hypex NCx500 (not NC500) are the current Best in Class.  Be sure to take a look at the reviews on these products.

The power supply used in these designs is also a very significant contributor to the overall audio performance.  Be sure that the power supply is one that has been designed or approved by the board manufacturer to be able to fully power the modules.  One common issue with third-party designs is they use multiple amplifier boards with a single power supply, which can severely limit the power output when all channels are driven.  It’s important to read the specs carefully. 

Deer Creek Audio is an authorized Hypex dealer.  We sell Hypex amplifiers that are pure Hypex designs with proven performance and reliability.  Check us out at deercreekaudio.com