Thank you for your considerate answer, I never rush into a compulsive purchase. I research and save the cash for some months before. I had a good experiance with SONY when living in London, they deserve a better standing. I am a recent observer on this site, but singurlaly refuse to buy used kit, I've been stung before. I digress. I own a CD play/recorder (TASCAN pro CDRW900SX) It's for the car, I make mix discs and album copies.
I will take your advice and think it through. A £4k sacd will be the most I have spent on a component thus far. But now it's on hold.
THANKS,
IAN.
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@irjones
You asked for my opinion, so my apologies for the delay in replying! I have not had time to write a short answer, so please forgive me for a long one.
I absolutely support buying a SACD player. Results are far better than any current streaming service I am aware of. SACD is alive and well. I counted over 6000 titles currently available from Presto, covering classical and jazz.
There are two or three big questions though.
The first question is: where should the digital to analogue conversion be done? I think there are good reasons today for this task to be done by a dedicated DAC, pre-amp, AV pre-processor or even active loudspeakers.
The second question is: what about support for other disk formats? When CD was released in 1982, it was absolutely state-of-the-art and pre-dated both the internet and mobile phones. SACD with its Direct Stream Digital underpinning came in 1999, so it is 25 years old. HDMI only appeared in 2004. Since then, much higher density disks have appeared, including 4K video disks and Blu-ray audio formats.
The third question is: how many channels of audio should you consider? SACDs usually have 5 channel audio, with or without an extra subwoofer channel. They also contain a ‘stereo’ section and most are also hybrid with a standard CD layer. This is nowhere near state-of-the-art. For example Dolby Atmos provides for up to 32 virtual sound sources which can independently move in 3-d space.
Is this relevant for music? I would answer yes. Many films are about music and have brilliant soundtracks. If you dig classical, some orchestras like LSO Live routinely deliver SACD and Blue-ray video, the Berlin Philharmonic with its digital concert hall has absolutely stunning recordings of classical concerts including video options. Opera and ballet without video provide less than half the picture (pun intended). Audio-only rock recordings can be equally impressive – try Dire Straits’ Brothers in Arms in 5-channel SACD or Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon in Atmos. For state-of-the-art recordings go to Norwegian company 2L, website 2L.no, where their newer offerings contain 2 disks per pack, for example: a full SACD plus a Pure Audio Blu-ray. The later includes: 2.0 LPCM 192/24; 5.1 DTS HD-MA 192/24; 7.1.4 Auro-3D 96kHz; 7.1.4 Dolby Atmos 48kHz.
You can see where this is leading. My recommendation is to buy a universal disc player which can handle SACD and also 4k, Blu-ray, DVD and CD. There is a caveat though. Unlike the brilliant Oppo players, now only available second-hand, the DACs on universal Reavon and some Magnetar players do not natively handle DSD. The exception is the Magnetar UDP900.
The cheap Sony assumes you will output HMDI, and like the other players, provides for a separate audio-only HDMI connection. You won’t get an audiophile pride-of-ownership feeling from this transport, but I doubt that there is any discernible difference in the quality of HDMI audio output compared with the more expensive players, provided you use the recommended 40-Gbps Ethernet-enabled HDMI cable. This means you only need a disk transport, thereby saving a heap on analogue cabling. Lasers do not last forever, and transports are cheaper to replace than players.
My story (all prices approximate in Australian dollars): I have been reading the Gramophone magazine for about 7 decades, and take note of what they provide their reviewers. When the laser burnt out on my $3000 Marantz CD player, I bought a $3000 Marantz universal disk player which did great service until its laser suddenly gave out. By then, its analogue outputs were feeding a $6000 Marantz 8802A audio-visual pre-processor. I also had a $1000 Panasonic 4k player (no SACD ability) and a very good $2000 Sony CD player with balanced outputs. My main speakers were Quad electrostatics – $20,000 ESL-2905 – fed by a $8000 Krell KSA-80 plus an 18” Velodyne sub about $7000.
I had just got the Quads working after replacing panels, so the failure was annoying. I just had time to visit a couple of HiFi shops in Canberra. The first scoffed at why I wanted to play SACDs and pushed me towards records. I did not have the heart to say I had about 70 SACDs just in my motorhome (where I have the cheap $250 Sony transport). I left him demonstrating techno to an unsuspecting prospect.
The second shop listened to my tale of woe, and said they might have just the thing – the then brand new $3000 Reavon UBR-X200. I’d never even heard of Reavon, but they guaranteed it would play CDs as well or better than my Sony CD player, would play 4k video better than my Panasonic, and SACD better than my Marantz. I splashed the cash there and then, took it home and connected the analogue outputs, including 2-channel balanced. Set the options according to the manual. Put on the CD I always use for evaluating speakers – Decca’s 1969 ADD recording of Britten conducting his “Young Person’s Guide to the Orchestra”. Apart from highlighting most orchestral instruments, the finale of this piece builds from the faintest triangle strokes to the most complex percussion cross-rhythms and awesome brass overlays.
Did the Reavon match sound-wise? Tick. Then West Side Story on 4k. Was it better than the Panasonic? Certainly started 10 times faster. Better picture. Tick. Now for SACD. I test with the second movement of Shostakovich’s Second Piano Concerto on Hyperion, where the soft piano notes can just hang in the air.
What I heard was full volume pink (or white?) noise. WTF. Checked all the cables, checked the manual. Eventually changed the settings to the opposite – not easy as the machine has to be rebooted. Success – at least I was hearing 5-channel sound. Did the piano notes hand in the air? No. WTF. Check the specifications of the Texas Instruments Burr-Brown DACs, one for the balanced CD output, the other for multi-channel output. Neither mentioned DSD. Email Reavon support. No, our multi-channel SACD is down-converted to CD quality. WTF. Wait a minute, what about 2-channel SACD through the balanced output? Sorry, that’s CD quality too.
The discontinued Oppo players use Sabre ESS DACs and as it happens, my Marantz AV pre-processor contains no less than eight 2-channel DACs from Japanese company Asahi Kasei Microdevices. These have almost identical specifications to the Sabre DACs. Setting up the Reavon to output over HDMI gave stunning results, and there’s no need to reboot.
Oddly, the Sony is fed 12V DC from a wall-wart, so it would be simple to power it from a battery, eliminating any desire for mains filtering. So to me, the choice boils down to the cheap $250 Sony transport, the $2000 Reavon UBR-X110 (no analogue) transport or the $5000 Magnetar UDP900 player if you really want on-board DACs. The latter two have a big steel plate in the base, so at least feel audiophile grade!
My head says Sony, my heart Reavon or Magnetar.
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I use McIntosh amplification (two systems) and settled on the Philips 963SA. I have found no flaws with the SACD playback, and my redbook cds have never, ever sounded better. Plus this deck is no more than $300 on the used market.
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First thing to be aware of is that most SACDs contain both muti-channel and two-channel (stereo), as well as a completely separate CD layer.
"Most"? That has not been my experience in the time I have been buying SACDs. I'd go with "some."
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I purchased a used Meitner/EMM Labs XDS1 and could not be happier. It is by and far the best SACD player I have ever heard. It is as close to vinyl as you can get. Google it for plenty of reviews.
Mike
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Dear fellow audiophile,
Whatever you get, make sure it has user adjustable digital output filters. The filters have a subtle effect on the overall tone. A little like tone controls. I have two sacd players. I like some filters more than others.
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@wturkey
Hi.. I received MCT500 yesterday and I spent some time listening to my old CD's and newly acquired SACDs and all I can cay is that I am beyond impressed. Even the old CDS sound so much better than FLAC and Streaming. The integration between the MCT500 and MA5300 was as simple as it gets with the DIN cable. I am super happy with my purchase and I can truly say that I have never heard my CDs sound this good.
I also wanted to reiterate one point here. There are so many great CD/SACD players in the market, however my use case was simply sending the raw DSD layer from SACD to my Amp and not PCM (to get the best possible sound). PS Audio SACD transport and a PS Audio DAC via I2S connection or McIntosh SACD transport and McIntosh DAC via MCT/DIN connection are the only way to accomplish this.
I was able to accomplish this with the least amount of $ spent since I already own a McIntosh MA5300 with DA1 module. Oh, and the MCT500 I purchased was preowned and it looks virtually new.
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Japan is the home of SACD production and listening today. As a result they have the most quality players available. Marantz is a quality brand with high quality players from $3K to $12K. Available on the used market as well
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Oppo 105d should do the trick. You can only buy them used.
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The 105 also has the HDCD chip and the HDCDs sound really good too. The 205 sounds better than the 105, but no HDCD chip. I prefer the 205. I recommended oppo to a friend of mine and he bought a used 103 which he loves and it was cheap. Read about the features of each player if you are interested.
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I have an Oppo 205 and it sounds really good, especially with high quality SACDs like Mofi. They still service these players, just in case you need it. I have owned two Oppo players and they are really well built and I never had any problems with either one. I also use it for watching concert Blue rays or Dvds with sound going through my stereo. It's also made for surround.
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@rlsammie
Congrats on the purchase. Please share feedback on the setup experience.
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Hi, I too am looking to upgrade to SACD. I'm not looking at home theatre, I mainly watch the news channels, and soccer. A sound bar will suffice. But I learned a lot reading this post. And as I'm saving to buy something permanent. It is the Marantz AS30 or 10, I am chiefly interested in. Am I wrong in this train of thought? RICHARDBRAND, What do you think?
Thanks IAN.
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FWIW I have an OPPO 105D into a Bryston DAC3 and I hear no difference between the 2
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Get the Mac. You already have Mac stuff. Stick with the stuff you know and love.
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Great machine. Enjoy. The MCT connection is the way to go if you listen to SACD
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It looks like a FW connection with 8 pins. As I mentioned such a connection can sound very impressive. Both my above mentioned players sounded much better that I would have expected from AVRs and other components inputting by conventional means into the Sony and Pioneer AVRs were distinctly less vivid. Hopefully McIntosh will continue to support such a format going forward
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@upstateaudiophile
I am really happy to know, I am also glad that I went with the MCT500. It simplifies things with my setup and leaves some extra money on my account. I am super excited to hook it up and spend some time with it over the weekend.
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@richardbrand
:) It's all good. My surround system is a very basic Dolby Atmos Yamaha receiver. Thank you for the suggestions. I will definitely check them out.
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What kind of a connection is that between the 2 McIntosh components? I used to have a Sony SACD player that had a proprietary connection to a Sony AVR and then later a Pioneer Elite DVD/SACD player with a similar link to a Pioneer AVR. These links were FireWire and sounded very good indeed
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I have the McIntosh 8950 and MCT500. The pairing is amazing. I now strongly prefer to listen to cd over streaming. Using the DA2 DAC I’m the 8950 for everything. Flipping between optical and the MCT din cable, the din cable sounds best. It was a little finicky at first where if I push it in too far it can drop signal. McIntosh said this cable is like that. It was not a short in the cable either as I have 2z
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@rlsammie I only have one system for both music and video ;-(. Probably the only Dolby Atmos capable system in the world with no center channel!
There are some seriously good Atmos sound recordings available too. If you like classical then Norwegian label 2L at www.2l.no has some stunning disks. In my opinion, they are world leaders in how to do digital properly. Elsewhere, Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon in Atmos is amazing.
For others embarking on the high-resolution disk journey, HDMI can be used to mix and match transports and DACs from different manufacturers, and supports high resolution audio including multi-channel DSD and Atmos. Mcintosh is an exception, and the MCT500 SACD transport is 2-channel only!
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@richardbrand
I am with you. I also have a Sony Blue-ray player connected to my home theater system that supports DSD multilayer. With the HDMI out from the Blue-ray player I am able to enjoy multichannel music. However, my home theater system fairly basic and is not my reference audio system.
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@curiousjim
Agreed and It's the same with MCT500 transport. They key here is that both the transport and DAC needs to be from the same manufacturer.
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@rlsammie I understand that you have gone down the Mcintosh route, but I’d like to comment for others wishing to go down the SACD path.
First thing to be aware of is that most SACDs contain both muti-channel and two-channel (stereo), as well as a completely separate CD layer. Many "audiophile" SACD players only play two-channel stereo so are quite restrictive. I personally do not believe in the argument that because we only have two ears, we cannot hear surround sound, let alone the immersive sound now available on Blu-Ray with even more channels (eg Dolby Atmos).
One route is to buy a universal player which can play (most) silver disks including CD, DVD, Blu-Ray, 4K and SACD. Manufacturers like Panasonic do not want to pay royalties to Sony for SACD, but that is not an issue for Sony. The cheapest Sony universal player starts at about A$250, or for about 10 times as much you get into Reavon and Magnetar. The latter pair are built around the same System on a Chip (SoC) as defunct Oppos, hence the familiar menu structure.
I have Marantz, Sony and Reavon universal players which all play multi-channel and stereo SACD. The Marantz and Reavon have both digital (HDMI) and analogue outputs. I mainly feed a Marantz 8800A AV Preprocessor which has 8 very high quality two-channel DACs.
Astonishingly, the Reavon 200 has one DAC for CD playback and another for multi-channel analogue playback. Neither of these DACs is state-of-the-art. Worse yet, the SACD playback is down-converted to CD quality so you lose all the benefits of Direct Stream Digital (DSD). This is clearly audible!
The saving grace is that you can effectively use the Reavon 200 as a transport, passing DSD over HDMI, just like the far cheaper Sony. My Marantz does a superb job of decoding the DSD!
The Reavon is available without analogue outputs but with SACD playback as the 110 model at a much lower cost. I am not sure if there is an impact on video quality. Anyway, hope this helps somebody
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@risammie
The beauty of going with PS Audio, is that they are one of a very few who can transfer the DSD layer from their transport to their upgradable DAC. Most others have to use a built in DAC that can be of poor quality.
All the best.
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Thank you everyone for your feedback and advice. Since I already own and love the MA5300 integrated amp, I have opted to stay within the Mcintosh ecosystem. I ended up purchasing a preowned MCT500. This is the easiest and the most straight forward way for me to send raw DSD layer from SACD using the DIN cable.
I should be receiving it over the weekend and report back.
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Magnetar universal players are basically the successor to Oppo. I believe the company was founded by the Oppo engineers that designed their UDPs. Their menus are identical to Oppo and you can either play the SACD with the internal DAVs or use them as transports to export the DSD over HDMI to a DAC such as the Bryston DAC3
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I've had the McIntosh MCD85 for two years and am really pleased with the CD and SACD performance. Not sure if the retro MCD chrome will match your set up but it is a classic look.
One thing to note; the availability of SACDs is limited; several good sources have been previously noted on this site. Also, not all SACDs are created equal. Some rival the warmth and detail of vinyl, others just sound similar to a CD version.
Also, I use the MCD85 more for streaming than SACDs. I prefer the MDC85 DAC, so I have my Marantz NA6005 connected to the MDC85 optical input. Output to my McIntosh MA352 IA is via balanced cables. I find this set up to give me optimal streaming sound quality.
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McIntosh and enjoy the music.
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I would stay with McIntosh. More flexibility
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Thank you for all the feedback, ideas and suggestions. I will stick with the McIntosh ecosystem and go with a preowned MCT500. It's the quickest and easiest was for me to extract raw DSD layer from SACD to my Amp. I plan on keeping my MA5300 and in the future even upgrading to another McIntosh integrated amp.
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I use a Yamaha CD S1000 ($850-950 used) for excellent results.
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I think if you are happy with your current MA5300 then it seems like auditioning the MCT500 makes the most sense. You didn't mention if you wanted new or used but there's a good chance a McIntosh dealer in your area can probably help get you set up with a unit to try out.
As for upgrading your DA1 to DA2, I personally didn't notice much sound difference between them. The DA2 has some upgrades as far as features and functionality but the sound shouldn't change much if at all. So if you are happy with the DA1 just stick with that.
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I might catch some shade for this but Sony's top blu-ray does SACD and is a really good unit. Maybe just check it out a bit. Good luck!
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OP,
Have you thought of picking a used Sony/Pioneer bluray players from eBay and using that to extract DSF/DFF files from your SACD and then using an external DAC to play them? The initial outlay for the bluray player should be between $30-$100 depending on the condition. Then you can get a great DAC in your budget.
The only part that needs a bit of time is to understand the process of how to rip the SACDs using the bluray player. It's not that difficult.
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I've been looking at SACD for a long time, wasn't sure which way to go. For now, I've settled on the McIntosh 8950 and the MCT500. Full disclosure, I have not heard either yet. For me, it would make sense to use both McIntosh pieces so that you can use the proprietary connection to get full DSD. I would also look to upgrade the DA1 to the DA2, which you can do by swapping them out on your MA5300. When McIntosh comes out with the DA3, then you can upgrade again. For me, that is the reason why I'm going with McIntosh. Upgradeable DAC.
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Maybe just get your foot in the door so to speak with a used Harmon Kardon DVD 47 or something to see how it sounds before settling on a unit that does DSD.
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rlsammie
Well, I’d say neither McIntosh nor PS Audio. As suggested, Esoteric (better a pair\combination of their SACD transport and SACD DAC like P-0X and D-0X) would be a good solution but price might be a bit out of budget. A Marantz SACD 30n mentioned by brge here highly likely would also be a choice for its ~$3000 and I’d vote for it. Try to listen to one at your local Hi-Fi store if possible; would not buy any component without your own audition.
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@OP The build quality of the Esoteric K-05XD is in a different class to the McIntosh and PS machines and it's much better sounding than the McIntosh. I haven't a/b'd it with the PS, so can't comment there.
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I am the owner of a PS Audio Directstream DAC MK1 (including output transformer upgrade): it is a great DAC, but I noticed that over time, I could get some listening fatigue. At one point, my old Micromega CDF1 CD player gave out - I was only using it very sparingly with most of my listening being done through the DSD MK1 DAC. After some shopping around for a new CD player, I was intrigue by the Marantz SACD 30n: it was both a CD player and a DAC accepting USB input, and was doing a DSD conversion (which I found much smoother than PCM when properly implemented) using the Marantz Musical Mastering (MMM) digital-to-analog converter as a lesser version than the one available on their Reference SACD and CD Player SA-10. To this day, I have not found one single PCM implementation that did not cause me listening fatigue (be it DAC chips, R2R, Chord pulse-array). To my surprise, after some serious listening, I found that the Marantz SACD 30n provided me with more details, more natural tones, and warmer/richer medium frequencies than the DSD MK1 DAC, so much so that I sold the DSD MK1 DAC and replaced it permanently with the Marantz 30n.
I strongly suggest that you would take time to listen to the Marantz SACD 30n.
Note: I listen almost exclusively to Sacred Choral chants and listening fatigue can come very quickly if the high frequencies (sibilance) are too present. I am now retired, bought my Marantz 30n back in March 2022 (Capitalsound.ca for CAD$3,800), and do not plan to upgrade my sound system any time soon.
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If you’re open to discontinued products OPPO 205’s are still available both used and occasionally NIB on EBay. As of Sept 2024.
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I don't think Esoteric players are much more expensive than those options, if you're looking at a K05XD. The discrete DAC on the Esoteric alone will be significantly better than those options.
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Thank you for responding. I will go over to PS Audio forum and post this.
Esoteric is out of my budget :)
Shanling won't send the DSD layer to the DAC
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I would look at Esoteric disc players
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