Alrighty then!
Referent point
Look if we are going to get anywhere in this discussion on speakers,,,we've been at here now going on 20years +, We need to figure out how we are going to go forward into this 21st C, which now is 21 yrs and going.
Time to establsih some sort of reference posit, a speaker that we can all agree on which is neutral, efficient and worthy to be considered true high fidelity, Last qualification, is that any amp can drive the Speaker, From Jadis JA 800 monos blaocsk a 4 chassis 800 lb amplifier to a 1 watt SET amp.
Sure I realize this is asking for the impossible,
'But really its not.
There is such speakers.
These would be the wide bands.
You know the Fostex/Lowther you atried back in the day and found less than high fidelity.
Well we should not throw the babt out with the bath water.
The wide bands were developed in Berlin and Chicago back in the 1920;s. and IMHO are the finest design in any speaker (exception are the horns).
We can not make the big horns as reference, as few of us here can afford the big guys, + many other issues which make horns not a practical reference point.\
The only speaker i know that can fill the parameters to be designated as The Reference Point, as wide bands.
All speakers must be judged next to a high tech wide band.
Wide bands will expose the glares and flaws in your speaker, which are completely hidden from your ears at the moment.
I mean if we are all seeking true high fidelity its high time to face the facts of
1) bigger is not better
2) throwing money at a speaker will result in great sound
3) thinking outside the box is the creative approach to discovering high fidelity.
4) a lab name means nothing when heard next to a high tech wide band.(We can lay this blame at Sterophiles feet)
Time to establsih some sort of reference posit, a speaker that we can all agree on which is neutral, efficient and worthy to be considered true high fidelity, Last qualification, is that any amp can drive the Speaker, From Jadis JA 800 monos blaocsk a 4 chassis 800 lb amplifier to a 1 watt SET amp.
Sure I realize this is asking for the impossible,
'But really its not.
There is such speakers.
These would be the wide bands.
You know the Fostex/Lowther you atried back in the day and found less than high fidelity.
Well we should not throw the babt out with the bath water.
The wide bands were developed in Berlin and Chicago back in the 1920;s. and IMHO are the finest design in any speaker (exception are the horns).
We can not make the big horns as reference, as few of us here can afford the big guys, + many other issues which make horns not a practical reference point.\
The only speaker i know that can fill the parameters to be designated as The Reference Point, as wide bands.
All speakers must be judged next to a high tech wide band.
Wide bands will expose the glares and flaws in your speaker, which are completely hidden from your ears at the moment.
I mean if we are all seeking true high fidelity its high time to face the facts of
1) bigger is not better
2) throwing money at a speaker will result in great sound
3) thinking outside the box is the creative approach to discovering high fidelity.
4) a lab name means nothing when heard next to a high tech wide band.(We can lay this blame at Sterophiles feet)
84 responses Add your response
wait just a minute. why aren’t you ’Beethovenfan’? instead of Mozartfan? don’t you know that Beethoven is the reference, not Mozart? there will be no agreed upon reference. this is all personal preference. the best we can do is consider which brands and specific models are most popular. and then talk about why or why not. so that is what we do.....and......hopefully have fun and make friends while doing it. |
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@noromance: And a well recorded vocal through the QUAD ESL. Or acoustic guitar, or harpsichord. For acoustic bass, piano, and drumset, it’s a magnetic-planar loudspeaker (Magneplanar Tympani, Eminent Technology LFT-8b, GR Research OB speaker---incorporating Danny Richie’s version of the NEO 3 driver---and OB Sub. |
This is getting REAL close to the "kenjit syndrome" So OP, you like wideband? I guess you do. Say you got a cousin named kenjit? Buddy you've made your point. YOU LIKE WIDE BAND!!! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a lab name means nothing when heard next to a high tech wide band.(We can lay this blame at Sterophiles feet) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They had to go to the same school, had the same teachers, and had to have shared a Grandmother or Grandfather, there is no way around it..:-) The "Wide Band" is taking up a lot of Band Width. All valves (tubes) sound pretty close, right? :-) |
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Kipschhorns ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ My tech has some issues with Klipsch, ,,,,yet is a horn and thus beats low sens box speakers any day on midrange. Klipsch beats Wilsons in midrange I have no doubts about ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And a well recorded vocal through the QUAD ESL. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tech mentions these are a true legendary speaker. yat again, has issues, needs power = possible to use as a reference speaker,,,, but with issues = so we have to cancel Quads. We are looking for a speaker that anyone can employ with any amp, From ARC, To Rotel to A-Z. 1 watt to 1K watts. Voicing 40hz-12khz and no fatigue, no distortion. natural, neutral, clean voice. Big challenge I know. But I’m thinking I may have found such a speaker.. anuyway,,, my vid should be uploaded by now,,and I try to explain everything in the video. All I ask is some consideration, some reflection on what I’m trying to get across. I really thought I was the 1st to make this discovery, but someone here altered me that others also have been working with this wide band + low sens speaker combo. I call speakers low sens, We need to start working with proper characterization. Wide Bnads/Full Range/Point source. I think these should be called The High sens and all other box/xover types as The Low sens. Because that is exactly what they are, low sensitivity speakers. Numbers dont mean anything now. Labs are making specs look as if their speakers are mid sens to high sens. I don’t trust Seas nor Scanspeaks specs. Those nombers have beome meaningless. Yet there are wide bands also that also suffer from sens issues, maybe mid sens at best. 1 db is alot lot, when involved in speaker producing music. Is the speaker a true 87db? Is a wide band a true 92db? When you intergrate a true 92 db wide band, the side speaker , does not matter what the sens really truly is. The main speaker now is the 92 sens wide band. here is where 90% of your music is comming from and is most of what you are hearing. Your Wilson, Vandersteen, Thiel , Sonus Faber are only being employed as helpers, Nada mas. The star of the show, the Soprano and Tenor is the wide band. Yes I am aware I dumping over the apple cart. But its loaded with rotten apples. Needed to be dumped, long over due. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaOiIttqZs8 |
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@onhwy61 i think few mouth-breathing mono-brow audiophiles will know what the Mendoza Line is. and that is not the bottom, more the beginning of the bottom. i was a Mariner fan in the late 70’s and early 80’s, when Mario and his wonder glove roamed the Kingdome. he could pick it and throw it. and hit just enough to stay in the line-up of a perennial second division team like the Mariners. the Bose 901’s are more Triple A.....not really Major League. i owned 901’s from 1976 to 1978. kinda sucked. the bottom of the bottom. best thing about them was i could hang them from the ceiling so my baby daughter and son did not destroy them. |
One day at work boss says You’re going to the Mariner’s game tonight. The company had season tickets they would give away as spiffs usually the owner or a VP or something would go with whoever but this night they were all busy. But I don’t like baseball. Too bad, you’re going! So I tell the guy look baseball is so boring, the King Beers are expensive (it was the King Dome back then), we need to start drinking heavily. We meet at this pub across the street and quaff until the last second. Okay, let’s go. I have no idea where we are going. Turns out the company bought tickets right behind home plate. You can not get any closer. No sooner do we sit down than this new guy Ken Griffey Jr steps up. First pitch, CRACK!!!!! SIZZLE!!!!! LINE DRIVE HOME RUN!!! Okay that was pretty cool. Maybe baseball not so boring after all. Nine boring innings later.... nevermind, had it right to begin with. Until 20 some odd years later Letterman is interviewing the now famous Ken Griffey Jr asking what was it like first time at bat in the Majors. Griffey says, "Well my first at-bat I hit a homer, so pretty good." And it was only then I realized I had seen that first at-bat. It was not until another 20 years had gone by that I bought my first home run speakers, Tekton Moab. And with that he executes the perfect, indeed one might say reference level, off topic post save. |
Is it possible to have a thread without anyone mentioning Tekton? Its like hearing your Ring Doorbell alert you to motion at your front door, you race to the door in expectation of a beautiful Amazon Box but instead you find someone left a dog turd in a brown paper bag. A reference turd. And the dog threatens to sue you for the tort of conversion. |
maybe wide bands are not the perfect speaker for some of you here. But they most certainly deliver to my ears a midrange which i've always been in search of. My tech agrees, most every midraneg he has heard back in the 70's80's 3 ways had this **barking/coughing* muddy midrange. Rendering a bloated image. So I chose the Philiops 2 way with that incredible tweeter, the one with the clear dome with a small protective out front, I note other labs also used this same philips tweeter. The Thors smashed the old faithful 475 Philips The wide band smashed the Thors. Its all about smackdown. You don't know what you have, til you place something else next to what you have. Now after trying out several wide bands, its quite clear to me now the DavidLouis VX8 would be top dawg. All I had to do was study even more closely the construct, which i failed to do. But as i say, these things were completely new to me. I had heard the Fostex and Lowther had some issues, so I avoided both over the years. Regardless which high quality wide band , I am more speaking in general terms. Some member here posted a link which displayed all the fq ranges of classical instruments, human voice. Studying this chart, gave more challenge to finda wide band that was superior to the last. This is when I made the VX8 DavidLouis order. Perhaps the Sonus faber, Wilson, Vandersteen's meet your criteria of high fidelity. And thats cool, I have no issues with your taste, preferences. All I am attempting to do is to bring up the idea of intergrating a wide band as midrange speaker. Based on the exp of a **less than * high fidelity wide band smashed the Thors with new super high tech xovers, only then did I see the light. At the same vol level on the Defy, the Thors sounded likea wet blanket was thrown over , whereas the wide bands with maybe a 91ish db sens, voiced loud and clear at same vol gain point. Amp working less always produces a cleaner, clearer image, Even if I am only at 9 oclock and using only say 10% of the Defy's wattage. With a wide band in the speaker sysytem is almost like I'm using the PP amp as a SET power. Ideally i think best amps for this wide band+ speaker assist. would be the famous EL34 tube amp. Then of course we could also consider the 845 which will drive the wide band beautifully, , but may have issues pushing the low sens speaker in this partnership to achieve high fidelity full range. Just before I clicked post.. I googled **wisde bands as midrange** 1st hit was this link 'from May 2018. I only just read the OP, so I have to read through the chat, see what others think. The OP delineates exactly my experiences. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/crossover-points-and-augmented-wideband-driver-speakers.25401... |
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Remember how we used to cringe our ears when listening to Mahavishnu Orch live Central park 1973? Well not with these new wide bands. Non coloring, no fatigue, easy flowing, neutral like Seas Excel speakers. This success in this test recording, has to do mainly with the high sensitivity factor and a pure intergrative midrange, no xovers, just pure, no breakups. Nice balance of bass.mids.highs, making what was poor into something beautiful. I'd say wide bands are superior to traditional speakers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gGK0YNbREU&t=339s |
Much so confusing. I get the full range driver thing. I’ve built a LOT of them since the pandemic started. The right driver in the right enclosure driven by the right amp, can be magical with the right music. The most successful of the bunch was the Kirishima from the Spawn set of speakers designed by Scott Lindgren I built for a friend. https://www.frugal-horn.com/spawn.html Driver is a Fostex FE208Ez. Wonderful sounding speaker, especially mated w a EL84 amp in PP configuration. Is it a reference speaker? No. Sonic signature is waaaaay to specific. Only thing it can be compared to are other full range drivers. Much like 2 way bookshelves should be compared to… Well, you get the picture. And who is this mythical “tech” you speak of? |
Ah, the whizzer cone collective rises from the past, automotive audio having been where it had laid in wait.... Miso ’fused....I’ve been under the depression that waveforms on an undamped (non-’edge-supported’) cone reflect back up/down that cone, creating IM distortion...? ...or has quantum physics trumped that ’deflect’ ? Just curious....more than just Being curious....*G* ;) ...as well as 'irreferent'.... |
I quit trying anything after 6 month or so.. 50 years! WOW are you hoping your hearing will get bad enough you'll start liking them or what? When the dog leaves the room, it's time to change brands.. There was a few I tinkered with.. Klipsch, Ks, Corners, and La Scala I like WE theaters and VOT too.. Thee fun... |
henry5310 posts09-17-2021 2:43amBeen listening to Klipsch speakers for over 50 years, and each new one I keep trying, however they still sound awful to me. Bright to the point of painful and voices sound like megaphones on football field. Not nearly a reference for a great many audiophiles. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Talking horns with my tech geek, he also has issues with Klipsche. Yet he did go on to say some horns really voice a realistic sound stage. The ones he is refering to are very pricey, and so for all practical purposes, we can not bring in as The Reference Speaker,,, or we could, if we all had access to demo a high tech horn. Most of here do not have that exp and most likely won't. So its back to the future,,that is, the 1920's Berlin and Chicago wide bands as Reference Speakers, Jensen , EV too over that design, but sadly the xover box type jumped in and hijacked the speaker market. So further development money was stolen from wide bands, with onlya few companies trying their luck with wide bands. Fostex , Lowther and one other can't recall the name. I see a pair pop up on ebay now and then. They go for like $800 /pair, They were the bomb of wide bands in their day,, They have a peach(?) colored cone,,anyone know what lab I am looking for? Anyway. Not sure when the davidLouis VX8 and tang band 2145 were developed. In my limited exp, it is these 2 8 inchers which qualify as some sort of reference. The xover box types that Troels Gravesen is working hard at, are dinasaurs. THey suffer from too many handicaps. Wide bands beat xover types in nearly every criterion. |
Great idea of establishing a standard. However, I think this would only work for an individual or small group. Or maybe a store. Too many different tastes, hearing skills, sonic priorities. It’s up there with hearing cats. You know, as an aside, wasn’t that Bose slick marketing scheme? Listen to this bottom level Bose system… doesn’t it sound terrible compared to the 901? |
Does reference mean the best you've heard or just a baseline to compare other speakers to?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Reference defined as:: Complete full midrange, in all its charms and colors, nice gorgeous soundstage, zero fatigue, zero colotation, voice 100% accurate. All amps are acceptable , from 1 watt to 1k watts. Not aggressive. Musicality pure natural, clean, clear, **neutral* Seamless perfection. We are NOT looking for bass below 40-60hz, we are not looking for highs 12k-100k hz. 60 hz will be just fine. 12khz will be just fine. This is what defines a Reference Speaker. NO BLOATED SOUND, NO MUDDYINESS, allowed~~~~ *man how many speakers have I heard witha bloated, muddy soundstage,,I'd bea milliionaire for every speaker I've hard witha bloated midrange. Or eithera crippled midrange, like my Seas Thors. ~~~~~can Klipsche meets these requiremements~~~~~ Not asking for much, but these are the parameters which defibes our word usage of Reference Point. Dont get me wrong here My Seas Thors voice incredible life like vocals, deep 40 hz bass, nice highs...But at what cost... Next to a wide band, can't holda candle. WBer on 1 channel, Thors on the other... hahahahaha, what a joke Seas Thors, POS All xover box speakers suffer this disease in the midrange. |
ghdprentice692 posts09-17-2021 9:54amGreat idea of establishing a standard. However, I think this would only work for an individual or small group. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sensitivity sets apart xover box speakers from new high tech wide bands. Its all about sensitivity and perfection of midrange All box/xover speakers have serious issues in the most critical fq's. = Duds. as they make the amp to work over time vs WBer's where the music is gently coxaed from the amplifier ina most beautiful musical form/ Your Wilson's sound like garbage next to a high tech wide band But one must be honest in the listening session. Bias prejudice won't cut it. |
Right now it appears as if you have no idea what you are talking about
Probably less tha 1% of Agon members have actually heard a high tech wide band This is my point. My messages are now locked in google, In years from now, others googling **wide band** will see my posts and realize there is in fact another alternative to your box/xover things. By chance I hit on the idea, by sheer luck and persistence. I would never go back from where I came. I sought and I found. Box speakers only hold value as helpers to wide bands, Never will be a front center experience. Sorry, once you've heard a high tech WBer, you realize how much music you've been missing all these decades. |