Referent point

Kipschhorns
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My tech has some issues with Klipsch, ,,,,yet is a horn and thus beats low sens box speakers any day on midrange. Klipsch beats Wilsons in midrange I have no doubts about

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And a well recorded vocal through the QUAD ESL.


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Tech mentions these are a true legendary speaker.
yat again, has issues, needs power = possible  to use as a reference speaker,,,, but with issues =  so we have to cancel Quads. 
We are looking for a speaker that anyone can employ with any amp,
From ARC, To Rotel to A-Z. 1 watt to 1K watts.
Voicing 40hz-12khz and no fatigue, no distortion. natural, neutral, clean voice. 

Big challenge I know.
But I’m thinking I may have found such a speaker..
anuyway,,, my vid should be uploaded by now,,and I try to explain everything in the video.
All I ask is some consideration, some reflection on what I’m trying to get across.
I really thought I was the 1st to make this discovery, but someone here altered me that others also have been working with this wide band + low sens speaker combo.
I call speakers low sens,
We need to start working with proper characterization.
Wide Bnads/Full Range/Point source.
I think these should be called
The High sens
and all other box/xover types as
The Low sens.
Because that is exactly what they are, low sensitivity speakers.
Numbers dont mean anything now.
Labs are making specs look as if their speakers are mid sens to high sens.
I don’t trust Seas nor Scanspeaks specs.
Those nombers have beome meaningless.
Yet there are wide bands also that also suffer from sens issues, maybe mid sens at best.
1 db is alot lot, when involved in speaker producing music.
Is the speaker a true 87db?
Is a wide band a true 92db?
When you intergrate a true 92 db wide band, the side speaker , does not matter what the sens really truly is.
The main speaker now is the 92 sens wide band.
here is where 90% of your music is comming from and is most of what you are hearing.
Your Wilson, Vandersteen, Thiel , Sonus Faber are only being employed as helpers, Nada mas.
The star of the show, the Soprano and Tenor is the wide band.
Yes I am aware I dumping over the apple cart.
But its loaded with rotten apples.
Needed to be dumped, long over due.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaOiIttqZs8

maybe wide bands are not the perfect speaker for some of you here. 
But they most certainly deliver to my ears a  midrange which i've always been in search of.

My tech agrees, most every midraneg he has heard back in the 70's80's 3 ways had this **barking/coughing* muddy midrange. Rendering a  bloated image.
So I chose the Philiops 2 way with that incredible tweeter, the one with the clear dome with a  small protective out front, I note other labs also used this same philips tweeter.
The Thors smashed the old faithful 475 Philips
The wide band smashed the Thors.
Its all about smackdown.
You don't know what you have, til you place something else next to what you have.
Now  after trying out several wide bands, its quite clear to me now the DavidLouis VX8  would be top dawg.
All I had to do was study even more closely the construct, which i failed to do.
But as i say, these things were completely new to me.
I had heard the Fostex and Lowther had some issues, so I avoided both over the years.
Regardless which high quality wide band , I am more speaking in general terms. 
Some member here posted a  link  which displayed all the fq ranges of classical instruments, human voice.
Studying this chart, gave more challenge to finda  wide band that was superior to the last.
This is when I made the VX8 DavidLouis order. 

Perhaps the Sonus faber, Wilson, Vandersteen's meet your criteria of high fidelity. 
And thats cool, I have no issues with your taste, preferences.
All I am attempting to do is to bring up the idea of intergrating a  wide band as midrange speaker. 
Based on the exp of a  **less than * high fidelity wide band smashed the Thors with new super high tech xovers,  only then did I see the light. 

At the same vol level on the Defy, the Thors sounded likea  wet blanket was thrown over , whereas the wide bands with maybe a  91ish db sens, voiced loud and clear at same vol gain point.
Amp working less always produces a  cleaner, clearer image, 
Even if I am only at 9 oclock and  using only say 10% of the Defy's wattage.
With a  wide band in the speaker sysytem is almost like I'm using the PP amp as  a SET power. 
Ideally i think best amps for this wide band+ speaker assist. would be the famous EL34 tube amp.
Then of course we could also consider the 845 which will drive the wide band beautifully, , but may have issues pushing the low sens speaker in this partnership to achieve  high fidelity full range.

Just before I clicked post.. I googled
**wisde bands as midrange**
1st hit was this link
'from May 2018.
 I only just read the OP, so I have to read through the chat, see what others think.
 The OP delineates exactly my  experiences. 


https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/crossover-points-and-augmented-wideband-driver-speakers.25401...

Remember  how we used to cringe our ears when listening to Mahavishnu Orch live Central park 1973?
Well not with these new wide bands.
Non coloring, no fatigue, easy flowing, neutral like Seas Excel speakers.
This success  in this  test recording,  has to do mainly with the high sensitivity factor and a  pure intergrative midrange, no xovers, just pure, no breakups. Nice balance of bass.mids.highs, making what was poor into something beautiful.
I'd say wide bands are superior to traditional speakers.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gGK0YNbREU&t=339s

henry5310 posts09-17-2021 2:43amBeen listening to Klipsch speakers for over 50 years, and each new one I keep trying, however they still sound awful to me. Bright to the point of painful and voices sound like megaphones on football field. Not nearly a reference for a great many audiophiles.

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Talking horns with my tech geek, he also has issues with Klipsche.
Yet he did go on to say  some horns really voice a  realistic sound stage.
The ones he is refering to are very pricey, and so for all practical purposes, we can not bring in as The Reference Speaker,,, or we could, if we all had access to demo a  high tech horn. Most of here do not have that exp and most likely won't.
So its   back to the future,,that is, the 1920's Berlin and Chicago wide bands as Reference Speakers, 
Jensen , EV  too over that design, but sadly the xover box type jumped in and hijacked the speaker market. 
So further development money  was stolen from wide bands, with onlya  few companies trying their luck with wide bands.
Fostex , Lowther and one other can't recall the name. I see a  pair pop up on ebay now and then.
They go for like $800 /pair, They were the bomb of wide bands in their day,, They have a  peach(?) colored cone,,anyone know what lab I am looking for?
Anyway.
Not sure when the davidLouis VX8 and tang band 2145 were developed.
In my limited exp, it is these 2 8 inchers which qualify as some sort of reference.
The xover box types that Troels Gravesen is working hard at, are dinasaurs. 
THey suffer from too many handicaps. 
Wide bands beat xover types in nearly every criterion. 

Does reference mean the best you've heard or just a baseline to compare other speakers to?

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Reference defined as::
Complete full midrange, in all its charms and colors, nice gorgeous soundstage, zero fatigue, zero colotation, voice 100% accurate. All amps are acceptable , from 1 watt to 1k watts.
Not aggressive.  Musicality pure natural, clean, clear, **neutral* Seamless perfection.
We are NOT looking for bass below 40-60hz, we are not looking for highs 12k-100k hz. 
60 hz will be just fine. 12khz will be just fine.
This is what defines a  Reference Speaker.
NO BLOATED SOUND, NO MUDDYINESS, allowed~~~~
*man  how many speakers have I heard witha  bloated, muddy soundstage,,I'd bea  milliionaire for every speaker I've hard witha  bloated midrange. Or eithera  crippled midrange, like my Seas Thors. 

~~~~~can Klipsche  meets these  requiremements~~~~~

Not asking for much,  but these are the parameters which defibes our word usage of 
Reference Point.

Dont get me wrong here
My Seas Thors voice incredible life like vocals, deep 40 hz bass, nice highs...But at what cost...
Next to a wide band, can't  holda  candle.
WBer on 1 channel, Thors on the other...
hahahahaha, what a   joke Seas Thors, POS
All xover box speakers suffer this disease in the midrange. 

ghdprentice692 posts09-17-2021 9:54amGreat idea of establishing a standard. However, I think this would only work for an individual or small group.

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Sensitivity sets apart xover box speakers from new high tech wide bands.
Its all about sensitivity and perfection of midrange
All box/xover speakers  have serious issues in the most critical fq's. 
= Duds. as they make the amp to work over time
vs WBer's where the music is gently coxaed from the amplifier ina  most beautiful musical form/ Your Wilson's sound like garbage next to a  high tech wide band
But one  must be honest in the listening session.
Bias prejudice won't cut it.

Right now it appears as if you have no idea what you are talking about

Probably less tha 1% of Agon members have actually heard a  high tech wide band

This is my point.
My messages are now locked in google, In years from now, others googling **wide band** will see my  posts and realize there is in fact another alternative to your box/xover things.
By chance I hit on the idea, by sheer luck and persistence.
I would never go back from where I came.
I sought and I found.
Box speakers  only hold value as helpers to wide bands, 
Never will be  a front center experience.
Sorry, once you've heard a  high tech WBer,  you realize how much music you've been missing all these decades.

Just visited some YT uploads of the Klipsche Horns
No thanks....
wow issues all over the fq spectrum. 
Klipschehorns  could never qualify as Reference Point speaker.

I can understand why Klipsche horns make a big impression on folks
In a  20x20 10 ft ceiling,,oh yeah, what a  massive sound stage, HUGE..But what do w e really have going on in the fq spectrum,,really i mean.
We have alot of big sound.
But are we really after huge sound stage?? 
Why?
Avg listening room is 10x15, 8 foot ceiling.
Big Wilson's big Klipsche, big Vandersttens, the weaknesses will be heard clearly ina  mid size room.
The only speaker that I know that can sound super clean and perfect in all critical midrange fq's are the new high tech wide bands. 
'If the room is 8x8x8 or Buckingham Place's listening room, 100x100x100, The WBer will come out as the Reference Point Speaker.
The WBer is the ultimate 2nd to none (exception big expensive horns $50G's++ = disqualified) musical experience. 

I think some of you  think I just happened to make up this idea of a  Reference Speaker, just out of the  blue as if the idea just poped in my head  , not based on reality ck.
Well acutally this idea has a long history of exp behind it.
As I listen to mujsic on the WBer,, ideas get rolling around in my head.
I start asking Q's. and Thats how I cam up with this idea of  aReference Speaker. A speaker that could be placed next to a  challenger and make a  valid reference comparison.
The only speaker i know that is as neutral as Seas Excel Thor, is this wide band high tech 8.
Same neutral, and natural presentation of music, but on a  much bigger soundstage (= much higher db sens = Destroys Seas Excel Thors)

The Seas Thors were in soem ways my old Reference Speaker, but now surpassed with the new high tech wide bands 8.
btw the Excel line is going on 20 yrs+ , and so has fallen behind  on in new developments.
Seas should have concentrated on making a  super high tech wide band.
Their current 15 yr old WB model is a  bomb. I've not heard their Alnico Full Range,  again its 20+ yrs old and no doubt far surpassed by the 2 chinese labs. 
+ Very pricey at $700 each. 

Seas just never took the initiative to  further develope the wide band speaker.  Guess the money was not there. 
Due to the hard cold fact the USA audiophile  is obsessed, if not POSESSED , with his traditional box /xover things.
Seas has to go where the money is.

The Wide band 8's are now finally here and yet no one seems to take note, nor show any serious interest.
Speakers have always been my passion. 
Lucky for me the chinese tech geek figured out the design to deliver what I believe is 
*Reference Sound*
This keeps me off  the speaker Merry-Go-Round. 

Lets keep it real here folks
Take Wilson’s top line speakers.
Superior to my Seas Thors?
How ?
In what regard??
Bigger sound/more spl= plays louder?
Yes Wislon’s have more spl.
And big deal, the Vandersteen’s play louder,
What are we really after here in speakers?
Loudness?
Or fidelity??
You tell me.
Seas Excel line (minus their Crescendo tweeter) is the real deal.
And the DavidLouis smacks down the Thors.
So I know as a fact the DL VX* will smash your box/xover speaker in every spec, except the loudness thing.
Klipsche Horn, sure it plays very loud.
But again , what is the only essential important criteria in a speaker??
Of course none of you know the answer
The answer was tanged on the 1979 Philips speakers, called
**HIgh Fidelity*
This is what a speaker purpose is,, and nothing else.
**soundstage/presence/bass, highs/details/warm/separation/3D effect***

baloney
The only word that describes a speaker’s success or less than is
Fidelity.
Which was being made in Chicago and Berlin , 1920's. 
New (low sens/xovers) is not always better, in this case, its not. 
WE are going full  circle. Beginnings wide band, we will end wide band. 

What's the question?

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So we all attend a  local audiohiple club meeting.
Sponsor has Wilson or vandersteen, Thiel, maybe its the Sonus Faber at the hosts listening room.
Everyone is like **oooo, ahhhh, very nice sound..***
But on the way home and next day, we hear tid bits like **I loved everything about our friends ssytem, but the speakers were a  bit muddy...***
How often have we heard that?

So where's the Reference point speaker??
WE needa  Reference Speaker. 
The only speaker that qualifies to my 40 yrs exp is a  high quality wide band, which all began in the 1920's Chicago and Berlin.
I can tell you any Wilson speaker after a  day or 2 is going to grate on my nerves and I'm going to scream,,**Give me back my wide bands!!!**

stringreen5,988 posts09-18-2021 8:54pmTo these ears what horns do better than most is their ability to get closer to the dynamics of live music.

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Of course a  big expensive world class horn system is  w/o a  doubt the  only true Reference Point Speaker.
Thing here is, how many of us will ever get a  opportunity to hear sucha   system?
And how many of us here have the cash to afford a  horn system of that Reference Point quality?
For these 2 reasons and many others, horns  are disqualified  as being chosen as Reference Point.
So the next best thing , is.....Wide Banders.
WE have to be realistic here. 
All members have access to a wide bander. 
There are 3-4 reasons why WBers are the chosen speaker for being designated Reference Point.

Higher sensitivity always , in the end gane, wins out.
baddest gun slinger in the old wild west
WBer 8’s
What was once dead and forgotten, buried neath a pile of box/xover/low sens/commercialized/consumerized LOUD speakers,,has now been reborn, like the Phoenix in the fires.
Midrangemidrantgemidrange
All 3 levels of mids fully represented in glorious colors as per the studio recording.
A feat your box speakers can't perform. 

jd555 posts09-19-2021 1:04amOp
i like where you going with this but maybe we should collectively pick ten attributes that make the best reference point and and always try to reference those when describing equipment.


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Great jd55
So at least you and a few others are on board.
Others here want to re-rail this train.
Hey new ideas throughtout history always had the resistors, the deniers.. Then 100 yrs later the original idea pops up again, and only then, finds acceptance.
The 1929 movie theater huge wide bands were the *bombs* of their day.
You had no boxes with drivers of low sens /xovers...
Then you can follow the history of speakers through the decades.
I wonder had we wide bands on display in our audio shops back in the 70’s/80’s, would some of us chosen WBers over low sens types??
THere were the Jensen’s. in the late 50’s/60’s, But I’ve not heard them.
And of course we should not forget the EV/Jensen horns around this time.
Some folks still hold onto these old high quality speakers and believe they are as good as it gets.

As good as these EV/Jensen wide bands/horns may be, I believe the new high tech wide bands developed in china today, are far superior to these old standards.

10 characteristics/qualities that designate WBers as The Reference Point Speaker.

I’ve given most of the top reasons why WBers have earned this emminent award.
The 1 most critical factor is ~~~Midrange~~ Fq’s say 300hz-say...3khz...
based on my limited exp, these new WBers seem to present music like no box/xover is able to voice.
HIgher sensitivity + perfect midrange gives WBers a unique and distinctive place in speaker techology.

We have gone full circle,
What began as wide banders in Chicago and Berlin , 1929, now has come fulll cicrle back to WBers, as the speaker of choice for high fidelity.

High Sens WBers are super amp friendly , 
La Creme de la creame is under 9 oclock gain on your amp.
This is when your amp is not pushing,  most happy.
WBers with their 92db+ sensitivity allows  the musica to be gently coaxed from the amplifier, YOu can actually feel how smooth and delicate is the music played overa  WBer  speaker vs a  box/xover low sens type, 
The ones in your listening room. 
You only imagine you've heard your music via the low sens speakers in your system.
You've been led astray. 
Its alla  delusion.
When you acutally hear a  high tech high sens WBer, your ears will be opened, you will hear the light-ness of beautiful music.
Especially you jazz fan.s
The new high tech WBers is the ONLY speaker you should consider, if you really  want to exp lifelike vocals, gorgeous midrange colors, zero dis-coloration (-distortion/= fatigue)
For my classical music, now finally all the notes are being fully represented in details and dynamics. 
The Seas Thors are a  joke next to the new high tech WBers. 
Troels Gravesen's incredible high tech designs are jokes next to a  high tech WBers.
All has to do with higher sens and midrange. 
Scanspeak and Seas are hadicaped in both depts next to a  WBer. 

OK you say,, well any  speaker can play light jazz, like Diana Krall, Sophie Milman.
Give us soem full swing blues
'OK 
You got it
Here you will hear the DLVX8 in more complex swing orchestra.

I try to further my argument in my case that the new high tech wide banders
TB2145 and DLVX* have set the standards for judging all box/xover type speakers.

Try to make it through the full 15 minutes.
Trust me, the  speakers sound exactly as you hear them in this video,.
Just pure easy midrange, extremely neutral , and  naturally musical.
The labs in Chicago/Berlin making these wide bands were the best speaker engineers  ever.
These guys were like the Einsteins of speaker designs. 
WE should all follow their lead.
Thankfully 2 labs in china did just that. Follow the high fidelity.
Both labs deserve the highest awards in all things audio.
For w'/o high fidelity speakers, your $$$$$$ amp is  worth no more than ,,,Low Fidelity. .
Who wants low fidelity? Such as Bose and B&W's type sound.
Wilson's are only a  step above B&W.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjKBJ90-7M0