What does this post even mean? What reference? Just buy what sounds good to you....who cares what anyone else thinks is a reference. The only reference that exists is what someone heard with their own ears at a studio....remember, the sound was being played through "monitor speakers", none of which were universally used...therefore, your reference is a hard target to hit, and your ears are different than the person that was actually in the studio...so what is the point in searching for some imaginary reference...if a speaker sounds like sh#t to you, but sounds great to someone else, it is still sh#t, vice versa...it is you that needs to be satisfied.
Referent point
Look if we are going to get anywhere in this discussion on speakers,,,we've been at here now going on 20years +, We need to figure out how we are going to go forward into this 21st C, which now is 21 yrs and going.
Time to establsih some sort of reference posit, a speaker that we can all agree on which is neutral, efficient and worthy to be considered true high fidelity, Last qualification, is that any amp can drive the Speaker, From Jadis JA 800 monos blaocsk a 4 chassis 800 lb amplifier to a 1 watt SET amp.
Sure I realize this is asking for the impossible,
'But really its not.
There is such speakers.
These would be the wide bands.
You know the Fostex/Lowther you atried back in the day and found less than high fidelity.
Well we should not throw the babt out with the bath water.
The wide bands were developed in Berlin and Chicago back in the 1920;s. and IMHO are the finest design in any speaker (exception are the horns).
We can not make the big horns as reference, as few of us here can afford the big guys, + many other issues which make horns not a practical reference point.\
The only speaker i know that can fill the parameters to be designated as The Reference Point, as wide bands.
All speakers must be judged next to a high tech wide band.
Wide bands will expose the glares and flaws in your speaker, which are completely hidden from your ears at the moment.
I mean if we are all seeking true high fidelity its high time to face the facts of
1) bigger is not better
2) throwing money at a speaker will result in great sound
3) thinking outside the box is the creative approach to discovering high fidelity.
4) a lab name means nothing when heard next to a high tech wide band.(We can lay this blame at Sterophiles feet)
Time to establsih some sort of reference posit, a speaker that we can all agree on which is neutral, efficient and worthy to be considered true high fidelity, Last qualification, is that any amp can drive the Speaker, From Jadis JA 800 monos blaocsk a 4 chassis 800 lb amplifier to a 1 watt SET amp.
Sure I realize this is asking for the impossible,
'But really its not.
There is such speakers.
These would be the wide bands.
You know the Fostex/Lowther you atried back in the day and found less than high fidelity.
Well we should not throw the babt out with the bath water.
The wide bands were developed in Berlin and Chicago back in the 1920;s. and IMHO are the finest design in any speaker (exception are the horns).
We can not make the big horns as reference, as few of us here can afford the big guys, + many other issues which make horns not a practical reference point.\
The only speaker i know that can fill the parameters to be designated as The Reference Point, as wide bands.
All speakers must be judged next to a high tech wide band.
Wide bands will expose the glares and flaws in your speaker, which are completely hidden from your ears at the moment.
I mean if we are all seeking true high fidelity its high time to face the facts of
1) bigger is not better
2) throwing money at a speaker will result in great sound
3) thinking outside the box is the creative approach to discovering high fidelity.
4) a lab name means nothing when heard next to a high tech wide band.(We can lay this blame at Sterophiles feet)
84 responses Add your response
Yes open baffle, single driver, no crossover speakers have a unique sound. No one is denying that. I take it you like that sound and it’s the sound you use to measure other speakers by. OK I have no issue with that. Open baffles do some things really well . OK lets look at where you are coming from and the assumptions you state are facts. I mean if we are all seeking true high fidelity its high time to face the facts of 1) bigger is not better This isn’t necessarily true even in the wide band arena. The larger the baffle the more bass you’ll get. Increased bass response is a good thing in a reference speaker 2) throwing money at a speaker will result in great sound Not untrue but typically better components result in better sounding components. There is a 6moons post about building a high end system for $1000 using an open baffle speaker. Since the article was posted the speaker manufacture has started using more expensive drivers which resulted in better sound. 3) thinking outside the box is the creative approach to discovering high fidelity. I can’t agree more but that also includes other speaker designs. 4) a lab name means nothing when heard next to a high tech wide band.(We can lay this blame at Sterophiles feet) Here’s the rub. This statement is vague, mostly untrue and only undermines the purpose of the post. Magazine reviewers are paid by the word and a poor review could cut them off from that manufactures products is true but they also have an audience of listeners who actually pay them and if a product was truly that superior and they didn’t report it they would be out of business If there was ever was truly such a thing as a reference speaker it would probably be the Rogers LS3/5A. It was used in recording studios by the engineers who actually recorded the music you’re listening too. Playback through the Rogers would be a baseline / reference. From how it originally sounded to how it sounds on the new speakers. I get it you are excited but most of us have already been there, done that and moved on. Repeatedly posting something on multiple threads doesn’t make it so. |
OK you say,, well any speaker can play light jazz, like Diana Krall, Sophie Milman. Give us soem full swing blues 'OK You got it Here you will hear the DLVX8 in more complex swing orchestra. I try to further my argument in my case that the new high tech wide banders TB2145 and DLVX* have set the standards for judging all box/xover type speakers. Try to make it through the full 15 minutes. Trust me, the speakers sound exactly as you hear them in this video,. Just pure easy midrange, extremely neutral , and naturally musical. The labs in Chicago/Berlin making these wide bands were the best speaker engineers ever. These guys were like the Einsteins of speaker designs. WE should all follow their lead. Thankfully 2 labs in china did just that. Follow the high fidelity. Both labs deserve the highest awards in all things audio. For w'/o high fidelity speakers, your $$$$$$ amp is worth no more than ,,,Low Fidelity. . Who wants low fidelity? Such as Bose and B&W's type sound. Wilson's are only a step above B&W. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjKBJ90-7M0 |
Higher sensitivity always , in the end gane, wins out. baddest gun slinger in the old wild west WBer 8’s What was once dead and forgotten, buried neath a pile of box/xover/low sens/commercialized/consumerized LOUD speakers,,has now been reborn, like the Phoenix in the fires. Midrangemidrantgemidrange All 3 levels of mids fully represented in glorious colors as per the studio recording. A feat your box speakers can't perform. |
jd555 posts09-19-2021 1:04amOp i like where you going with this but maybe we should collectively pick ten attributes that make the best reference point and and always try to reference those when describing equipment. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Great jd55 So at least you and a few others are on board. Others here want to re-rail this train. Hey new ideas throughtout history always had the resistors, the deniers.. Then 100 yrs later the original idea pops up again, and only then, finds acceptance. The 1929 movie theater huge wide bands were the *bombs* of their day. You had no boxes with drivers of low sens /xovers... Then you can follow the history of speakers through the decades. I wonder had we wide bands on display in our audio shops back in the 70’s/80’s, would some of us chosen WBers over low sens types?? THere were the Jensen’s. in the late 50’s/60’s, But I’ve not heard them. And of course we should not forget the EV/Jensen horns around this time. Some folks still hold onto these old high quality speakers and believe they are as good as it gets. As good as these EV/Jensen wide bands/horns may be, I believe the new high tech wide bands developed in china today, are far superior to these old standards. 10 characteristics/qualities that designate WBers as The Reference Point Speaker. I’ve given most of the top reasons why WBers have earned this emminent award. The 1 most critical factor is ~~~Midrange~~ Fq’s say 300hz-say...3khz... based on my limited exp, these new WBers seem to present music like no box/xover is able to voice. HIgher sensitivity + perfect midrange gives WBers a unique and distinctive place in speaker techology. We have gone full circle, What began as wide banders in Chicago and Berlin , 1929, now has come fulll cicrle back to WBers, as the speaker of choice for high fidelity. High Sens WBers are super amp friendly , La Creme de la creame is under 9 oclock gain on your amp. This is when your amp is not pushing, most happy. WBers with their 92db+ sensitivity allows the musica to be gently coaxed from the amplifier, YOu can actually feel how smooth and delicate is the music played overa WBer speaker vs a box/xover low sens type, The ones in your listening room. You only imagine you've heard your music via the low sens speakers in your system. You've been led astray. Its alla delusion. When you acutally hear a high tech high sens WBer, your ears will be opened, you will hear the light-ness of beautiful music. Especially you jazz fan.s The new high tech WBers is the ONLY speaker you should consider, if you really want to exp lifelike vocals, gorgeous midrange colors, zero dis-coloration (-distortion/= fatigue) For my classical music, now finally all the notes are being fully represented in details and dynamics. The Seas Thors are a joke next to the new high tech WBers. Troels Gravesen's incredible high tech designs are jokes next to a high tech WBers. All has to do with higher sens and midrange. Scanspeak and Seas are hadicaped in both depts next to a WBer. |
stringreen5,988 posts09-18-2021 8:54pmTo these ears what horns do better than most is their ability to get closer to the dynamics of live music. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Of course a big expensive world class horn system is w/o a doubt the only true Reference Point Speaker. Thing here is, how many of us will ever get a opportunity to hear sucha system? And how many of us here have the cash to afford a horn system of that Reference Point quality? For these 2 reasons and many others, horns are disqualified as being chosen as Reference Point. So the next best thing , is.....Wide Banders. WE have to be realistic here. All members have access to a wide bander. There are 3-4 reasons why WBers are the chosen speaker for being designated Reference Point. |
Reference speakers are speakers others have access to. It doesn't have to be a great speaker, it has to be a reference. If your referring to HIGH quality HiFi, there is no reference. There is a matter of opinion and certain preferences about what people like. Nothing more nothing less. The person who has hearing loss from 8K and gone by 12K is NOT going give a hoot about 25khz speakers other than to look at..:-) There is more than one standard being met here too. Looking like something made from surplus cargo containers AND looking like crap isn't in the cards either.. I like what I LIKE. A lot of speakers today are really functional and sound fantastic but are so UGLY. You can't put enough lipstick on some of these designs, no different with great sounding speakers of old to.. JUST UGLY and big. There are reasons for speaker grills. :-) I KEEP hearing this 1920s rant about Chicago and Berlin, 101 year later OP. A reference speaker would NEVER be hard to find or difficult to build. It's a reference. 40hz to18khz Maybe something like a JBL100 without the crazy cost (NOW). It's not a perfect speaker it's a reference.. Regards |
What's the question?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ So we all attend a local audiohiple club meeting. Sponsor has Wilson or vandersteen, Thiel, maybe its the Sonus Faber at the hosts listening room. Everyone is like **oooo, ahhhh, very nice sound..*** But on the way home and next day, we hear tid bits like **I loved everything about our friends ssytem, but the speakers were a bit muddy...*** How often have we heard that? So where's the Reference point speaker?? WE needa Reference Speaker. The only speaker that qualifies to my 40 yrs exp is a high quality wide band, which all began in the 1920's Chicago and Berlin. I can tell you any Wilson speaker after a day or 2 is going to grate on my nerves and I'm going to scream,,**Give me back my wide bands!!!** |
Lets keep it real here folks Take Wilson’s top line speakers. Superior to my Seas Thors? How ? In what regard?? Bigger sound/more spl= plays louder? Yes Wislon’s have more spl. And big deal, the Vandersteen’s play louder, What are we really after here in speakers? Loudness? Or fidelity?? You tell me. Seas Excel line (minus their Crescendo tweeter) is the real deal. And the DavidLouis smacks down the Thors. So I know as a fact the DL VX* will smash your box/xover speaker in every spec, except the loudness thing. Klipsche Horn, sure it plays very loud. But again , what is the only essential important criteria in a speaker?? Of course none of you know the answer The answer was tanged on the 1979 Philips speakers, called **HIgh Fidelity* This is what a speaker purpose is,, and nothing else. **soundstage/presence/bass, highs/details/warm/separation/3D effect*** baloney The only word that describes a speaker’s success or less than is Fidelity. Which was being made in Chicago and Berlin , 1920's. New (low sens/xovers) is not always better, in this case, its not. WE are going full circle. Beginnings wide band, we will end wide band. |
Is it possible to have a thread without anyone mentioning Tekton? Its like hearing your Ring Doorbell alert you to motion at your front door, you race to the door in expectation of a beautiful Amazon Box but instead you find someone left a dog turd in a brown paper bag. A reference turd. And the dog threatens to sue you for the tort of conversion. Hilarious and spot on! Why anyone would totally mess up a great Ken Griffey Jr. story I’ll never know! |
@op You obviously spend time on DIYAudio, where FR drivers are a standard go to. Why do you present this info as though none of us have ever heard a pair? Most of have been there, done that. Many times over. Good for you that they are a part of your journey. But please, stop speaking to us all as though we have never heard a pair. And how many FR drivers have you listened to? In properly executed enclosures? Stop, just please, stop with the redundant and repetitive posts. |
but I have a big room... and a very big very lifelike sound stage with my cornerhorns with only two watts. Where did you get that the average listening room is 10x15x8? Have you been to the Decware forum? Lots of people are enamored with single driver speakers there. The problem with reference is which ones? Lil Audio makes multiple size and drivers with different sound characteristics. Your music, your room your preference, your reference but it probably doesn’t meet my criteria of a reference speaker. Another single driver wide band was a very good speaker made by the The Horn Shoppe. Great midrange but it really need a corner for bass reinforcement. Later they added a Heil AMT driver on top to fill in the other frequencies to get the desired sound. My question is, are you here to tell people what their reference should be or are you asking to learn about the preferences of others? |
I think some of you think I just happened to make up this idea of a Reference Speaker, just out of the blue as if the idea just poped in my head , not based on reality ck. Well acutally this idea has a long history of exp behind it. As I listen to mujsic on the WBer,, ideas get rolling around in my head. I start asking Q's. and Thats how I cam up with this idea of aReference Speaker. A speaker that could be placed next to a challenger and make a valid reference comparison. The only speaker i know that is as neutral as Seas Excel Thor, is this wide band high tech 8. Same neutral, and natural presentation of music, but on a much bigger soundstage (= much higher db sens = Destroys Seas Excel Thors) The Seas Thors were in soem ways my old Reference Speaker, but now surpassed with the new high tech wide bands 8. btw the Excel line is going on 20 yrs+ , and so has fallen behind on in new developments. Seas should have concentrated on making a super high tech wide band. Their current 15 yr old WB model is a bomb. I've not heard their Alnico Full Range, again its 20+ yrs old and no doubt far surpassed by the 2 chinese labs. + Very pricey at $700 each. Seas just never took the initiative to further develope the wide band speaker. Guess the money was not there. Due to the hard cold fact the USA audiophile is obsessed, if not POSESSED , with his traditional box /xover things. Seas has to go where the money is. The Wide band 8's are now finally here and yet no one seems to take note, nor show any serious interest. Speakers have always been my passion. Lucky for me the chinese tech geek figured out the design to deliver what I believe is *Reference Sound* This keeps me off the speaker Merry-Go-Round. |
I can understand why Klipsche horns make a big impression on folks In a 20x20 10 ft ceiling,,oh yeah, what a massive sound stage, HUGE..But what do w e really have going on in the fq spectrum,,really i mean. We have alot of big sound. But are we really after huge sound stage?? Why? Avg listening room is 10x15, 8 foot ceiling. Big Wilson's big Klipsche, big Vandersttens, the weaknesses will be heard clearly ina mid size room. The only speaker that I know that can sound super clean and perfect in all critical midrange fq's are the new high tech wide bands. 'If the room is 8x8x8 or Buckingham Place's listening room, 100x100x100, The WBer will come out as the Reference Point Speaker. The WBer is the ultimate 2nd to none (exception big expensive horns $50G's++ = disqualified) musical experience. |
Reference defined as:: Complete full midrange, in all its charms and colors, nice gorgeous soundstage, zero fatigue, zero colotation, voice 100% accurate. All amps are acceptable , from 1 watt to 1k watts. are you sure that's not what colotation referent means? :) Passive crossovers do inject distortions into the signal and screws with the phase but wide bands have issues too. As much as I like midrange my reference speakers need to have bass and highs and while more recent drivers can come closer, physics just gets in the way. Active speakers are the most likely to get you the reference sound you are looking for. Basically just feeding the driver the frequency band that falls into its sweet spot and using multiple wide bands working in unison can be tuned to provide a flat coherent full frequency speaker. With that you can could build around the amps. Since all amps are acceptable for less than the cost of one decent amp you could use multiple chip amps to accomplish the reference sound. One of the guys in the DIY club did just that and while I haven't heard them they are supposed to sound really good. |
Right now it appears as if you have no idea what you are talking about
Probably less tha 1% of Agon members have actually heard a high tech wide band This is my point. My messages are now locked in google, In years from now, others googling **wide band** will see my posts and realize there is in fact another alternative to your box/xover things. By chance I hit on the idea, by sheer luck and persistence. I would never go back from where I came. I sought and I found. Box speakers only hold value as helpers to wide bands, Never will be a front center experience. Sorry, once you've heard a high tech WBer, you realize how much music you've been missing all these decades. |
ghdprentice692 posts09-17-2021 9:54amGreat idea of establishing a standard. However, I think this would only work for an individual or small group. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sensitivity sets apart xover box speakers from new high tech wide bands. Its all about sensitivity and perfection of midrange All box/xover speakers have serious issues in the most critical fq's. = Duds. as they make the amp to work over time vs WBer's where the music is gently coxaed from the amplifier ina most beautiful musical form/ Your Wilson's sound like garbage next to a high tech wide band But one must be honest in the listening session. Bias prejudice won't cut it. |
Does reference mean the best you've heard or just a baseline to compare other speakers to?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Reference defined as:: Complete full midrange, in all its charms and colors, nice gorgeous soundstage, zero fatigue, zero colotation, voice 100% accurate. All amps are acceptable , from 1 watt to 1k watts. Not aggressive. Musicality pure natural, clean, clear, **neutral* Seamless perfection. We are NOT looking for bass below 40-60hz, we are not looking for highs 12k-100k hz. 60 hz will be just fine. 12khz will be just fine. This is what defines a Reference Speaker. NO BLOATED SOUND, NO MUDDYINESS, allowed~~~~ *man how many speakers have I heard witha bloated, muddy soundstage,,I'd bea milliionaire for every speaker I've hard witha bloated midrange. Or eithera crippled midrange, like my Seas Thors. ~~~~~can Klipsche meets these requiremements~~~~~ Not asking for much, but these are the parameters which defibes our word usage of Reference Point. Dont get me wrong here My Seas Thors voice incredible life like vocals, deep 40 hz bass, nice highs...But at what cost... Next to a wide band, can't holda candle. WBer on 1 channel, Thors on the other... hahahahaha, what a joke Seas Thors, POS All xover box speakers suffer this disease in the midrange. |
Great idea of establishing a standard. However, I think this would only work for an individual or small group. Or maybe a store. Too many different tastes, hearing skills, sonic priorities. It’s up there with hearing cats. You know, as an aside, wasn’t that Bose slick marketing scheme? Listen to this bottom level Bose system… doesn’t it sound terrible compared to the 901? |
henry5310 posts09-17-2021 2:43amBeen listening to Klipsch speakers for over 50 years, and each new one I keep trying, however they still sound awful to me. Bright to the point of painful and voices sound like megaphones on football field. Not nearly a reference for a great many audiophiles. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Talking horns with my tech geek, he also has issues with Klipsche. Yet he did go on to say some horns really voice a realistic sound stage. The ones he is refering to are very pricey, and so for all practical purposes, we can not bring in as The Reference Speaker,,, or we could, if we all had access to demo a high tech horn. Most of here do not have that exp and most likely won't. So its back to the future,,that is, the 1920's Berlin and Chicago wide bands as Reference Speakers, Jensen , EV too over that design, but sadly the xover box type jumped in and hijacked the speaker market. So further development money was stolen from wide bands, with onlya few companies trying their luck with wide bands. Fostex , Lowther and one other can't recall the name. I see a pair pop up on ebay now and then. They go for like $800 /pair, They were the bomb of wide bands in their day,, They have a peach(?) colored cone,,anyone know what lab I am looking for? Anyway. Not sure when the davidLouis VX8 and tang band 2145 were developed. In my limited exp, it is these 2 8 inchers which qualify as some sort of reference. The xover box types that Troels Gravesen is working hard at, are dinasaurs. THey suffer from too many handicaps. Wide bands beat xover types in nearly every criterion. |
I quit trying anything after 6 month or so.. 50 years! WOW are you hoping your hearing will get bad enough you'll start liking them or what? When the dog leaves the room, it's time to change brands.. There was a few I tinkered with.. Klipsch, Ks, Corners, and La Scala I like WE theaters and VOT too.. Thee fun... |
Ah, the whizzer cone collective rises from the past, automotive audio having been where it had laid in wait.... Miso ’fused....I’ve been under the depression that waveforms on an undamped (non-’edge-supported’) cone reflect back up/down that cone, creating IM distortion...? ...or has quantum physics trumped that ’deflect’ ? Just curious....more than just Being curious....*G* ;) ...as well as 'irreferent'.... |