Referent point


Look if we are going to get anywhere in this discussion on speakers,,,we've been at here now going on 20years +, We need to figure out how we are going to go forward into this 21st C, which now is 21 yrs and going.
Time to establsih some sort of reference posit, a  speaker that we  can all agree on which is neutral, efficient and worthy to be considered true high fidelity, Last qualification, is that any amp can drive the Speaker, From  Jadis JA 800 monos blaocsk a  4 chassis 800 lb amplifier to a  1 watt SET amp.
Sure I realize this is asking for the impossible, 
'But really its not.
There is such speakers.
These would be the wide bands.
You know the Fostex/Lowther you atried back in the day and found less than high fidelity.
Well we should not throw the babt out with the  bath water.
The wide bands were developed in Berlin and Chicago back in the 1920;s. and IMHO are the finest design in any speaker (exception are the horns).
We can not make the big horns as reference, as few of us here can afford the big guys, + many other issues which make  horns not a  practical reference point.\
The only speaker i know that can fill the parameters to be designated as The Reference Point, as wide bands.
All speakers  must be judged next to a  high tech wide band.
Wide bands will expose the glares and flaws in your speaker, which are completely hidden from your ears at the moment.
I mean if we are all seeking true high fidelity  its high time to face the facts of 
1) bigger is not better
2) throwing money at a  speaker will result in great sound
3) thinking outside the box is  the creative approach to discovering high fidelity.
4) a  lab name means nothing when heard next to a  high tech wide band.(We can lay this blame at Sterophiles feet)


mozartfan

Showing 7 responses by danager

You're right I don't know the answer.  What's the question?
Is there a question?  Or just a rant?
The reference has been around for 70 years.
Kipschhorns
The used market makes them very affordable

Amp Friendly
Don’t dominate the middle of the room.
All you need are corners.

and for the reference: Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky or the Beatles
That's the issue with reference. Respected reviewers and many here on the forum use the Klipsch as their reference speaker.  

Does reference mean the best you've heard or just a baseline to compare other speakers to?
Reference defined as::
Complete full midrange, in all its charms and colors, nice gorgeous soundstage, zero fatigue, zero colotation, voice 100% accurate. All amps are acceptable , from 1 watt to 1k watts.

are you sure that's not what  colotation referent means?  :)

Passive crossovers do inject distortions into the signal and screws with the phase but wide bands have issues too.  As much as I like midrange my reference speakers need to have bass and highs and while more recent drivers can come closer, physics just  gets in the way.

Active speakers are the most likely to get you the reference  sound you are looking for.  Basically just feeding the driver the frequency band that falls into its sweet spot and using multiple wide bands working in unison can be tuned to provide a flat coherent full frequency speaker. 

With that you can could build around the amps.  Since all amps are acceptable for less than the cost of one decent amp you could use multiple chip amps to accomplish the reference sound.  
One of the guys in the DIY club did just that and while I haven't heard them they are supposed to sound really good.

but I have a big room... and a very big very lifelike sound stage with my cornerhorns with only two watts.

Where did you get that the average listening room is 10x15x8?

Have you been to the Decware forum? Lots of people are enamored with single driver speakers there. The problem with reference is which ones? Lil Audio makes multiple size and drivers with different sound characteristics. Your music, your room your preference, your reference but it probably doesn’t meet my criteria of a reference speaker.

Another single driver wide band was a very good speaker made by the The Horn Shoppe. Great midrange but it really need a corner for bass reinforcement. Later they added a Heil AMT driver on top to fill in the other frequencies to get the desired sound.

My question is, are you here to tell people what their reference should be or are you asking to learn about the preferences of others?
Let me try to understand.
is the question
How often have we heard that?

Or
So where’s the Reference point speaker??

Which one is the darn question?
and do you want an answer to either?
Yes open baffle, single driver, no crossover speakers have a unique sound. No one is denying that. I take it you like that sound and it’s the sound you use to measure other speakers by.
OK I have no issue with that. Open baffles do some things really well .
OK lets look at where you are coming from and the assumptions you state are facts.

I mean if we are all seeking true high fidelity its high time to face the facts of
1) bigger is not better
This isn’t necessarily true even in the wide band arena. The larger the baffle the more bass you’ll get. Increased bass response is a good thing in a reference speaker

2) throwing money at a speaker will result in great sound
Not untrue but typically better components result in better sounding components. There is a 6moons post about building a high end system for $1000 using an open baffle speaker. Since the article was posted the speaker manufacture has started using more expensive drivers which resulted in better sound.

3) thinking outside the box is the creative approach to discovering high fidelity.
I can’t agree more but that also includes other speaker designs.

4) a lab name means nothing when heard next to a high tech wide band.(We can lay this blame at Sterophiles feet)
Here’s the rub. This statement is vague, mostly untrue and only undermines the purpose of the post. Magazine reviewers are paid by the word and a poor review could cut them off from that manufactures products is true but they also have an audience of listeners who actually pay them and if a product was truly that superior and they didn’t report it they would be out of business

If there was ever was truly such a thing as a reference speaker it would probably be the Rogers LS3/5A. It was used in recording studios by the engineers who actually recorded the music you’re listening too. Playback through the Rogers would be a baseline / reference. From how it originally sounded to how it sounds on the new speakers.

I get it you are excited but most of us have already been there, done that and moved on. Repeatedly posting something on multiple threads doesn’t make it so.