Question for Atma-sphere, will expensive power cables improve your amplifiers?

Yes indeed. Believe me, I would rather spend less than more, but experience has taught me that often spending more pays dividends equal to or exceeding this extra expenditure. I dont understand the motive behind getting us to deny the validity of our senses. 
 

@audition__audio  +1  My sentiments exactly. 

claiming as thicker than 100ft house wiring 3ft PC will tangibly affect sound is not justified! 

@westcoastaudiophile As I explained earlier the wiring in the walls is far higher performance than most power cords so Voltage drops in it are less of a problem unless you're really drawing some current. Some audiophiles have 20Amp circuits installed on this account.

Yes indeed. Believe me, I would rather spend less than more, but experience has taught me that often spending more pays dividends equal to or exceeding this extra expenditure. I dont understand the motive behind getting us to deny the validity of our senses. 

This weekend our audio group compared DACs in a single blind setting. The DACs were: Thor Audio/Audio Logic DAC (over 20 years old), an Audio Note entry level kit DAC and a new Chinese resistor ladder S.S. DAC. They all sounded very different. Most thought the Audio Note the best with the Chinese coming in second. Guess which DAC probably measured the best?

Then we listened to all of the same music on analog. 

 

@jl35 +1 on focusing and testing in details any changes, sometimes negative upgrades etc! 

thanks audition__audio! btw, after few decades of being sound/analog designer, a.s.r. is not my reference or guide at all! 

enjoy the audio-hobby!

I enjoy reading about the listening experiences of others. I did extensive blind testing before choosing my Cerious power cords. Now I choose by just listening 

He is entitled to his opinion if this opinion is based on listening experience. Not so sure I would feel comfortable taking advice on equipment from a source that places so little value on the actual event. ASR has gone from an irritant to a joke.

@soix enjoy your ears! pathetic unsubstantiated comments will not help you here at AG! 

@westcoastaudiophile Three words — Audio Science Review. Go there. You’ll love it.  They’re your peeps. 

The more things change the more they stay the same.

@soix would love to see your blind test report results! 

claiming as thicker than 100ft house wiring 3ft PC will tangibly affect sound is not justified!

@westcoastaudiophile It is absolutely justified if just you use your ears.

"that a power cord needs to be of significant gauge to handle amplifier voltage drop” 

claiming as thicker than 100ft house wiring 3ft PC will tangibly affect sound is not justified! 

@jetter

Honestly @atmasphere deserves a lot of credit for being so forthcoming while being somewhat unfairly put on the spot by a question that applies not just to him but to every manufacturer on the planet, assuming of course that that question had value in the first place.

I believe that you (and maybe Atmasphere if I misinterpreted his post) are implying that power cables of the same gauge can carry different amounts of voltage from each other?

@jetter @devinplombier No, I was responding to the general assertion made that power cables make no difference in sound and can’t be verified with science or physics, which is pretty much absurd on any level. I just mentioned voltage drop as one aspect because it was mentioned earlier in this thread and is measurable, but obviously things like capacitance, resistance, etc. can also be measured and can affect cable performance and sound. I usually avoid responding to the flat earthers here, but this one was so broad and silly I felt compelled. That said, there are variables like geometry, conductor (silver, copper), shielding, connectors, etc. that can all make a difference so that even cables of the same gauge can and will sound different. One only need compare 10AWG cables between different manufacturers or even two different lines within the same manufacturer to hear that this is the case. If you think all 10AWG PCs sound the same then we’ll just agree to disagree. Anyway, hope this clarifies things.

In fairness though, the actual voltage drop across a power cable is going to be as insignificant as its resistance and in any event, wouldn't mitigation consist of heavier gauge conductors (ref. Ohm's law)?

I am not suggesting power cables do not make a difference in sound quality, merely that voltage drop may not be the best explanation, unless of course the conductors are improperly sized. After all, some big amps can pull 50 or 60A from the wall during transients.

@soix 

I came away thinking that Atmasphere cleverly skirted answering the question of whether or not expensive power cables of the SAME gauge will improve the sound of an amplifier versus their less expensive counterparts.

Instead, I thought that what he was writing is that a power cord needs to be of significant gauge to handle amplifier voltage drop.

I believe that you (and maybe Atmasphere if I misinterpreted his post) are implying that power cables of the same gauge can carry different amounts of voltage from each other?  

Why are you asking ’opinions’ about power cables instead of just asking what science and physics say, with quantifiable facts. POWER CABLES DO NOT CHANGE SOUND.

@squared80 All one need do is use your ears you you can easily hear differences between most power cables. Earlier in this thread Ralph from Atmasphere explained that one aspect that is easily measurable and affects sound is how a given power cable handles the voltage drop between the wall and the amp — the more power hungry the amp the more significant the voltage drop and the more important the cable becomes. He said some power cables handle this drop better than others and again this can easily be measured, and this is just one aspect of why power cables can and do sound different let alone shielding, quality of the connectors, etc. If you wanna stick with cheap power cords and deny they make a difference have at it, but you are in the vast, vast minority here as most hear very significant differences between PCs and at least some of it absolutely is measurable according to science and physics.

Protecting customers against...?

Why are you asking 'opinions' about power cables instead of just asking what science and physics say, with quantifiable facts. POWER CABLES DO NOT CHANGE SOUND. Shame on anyone who says otherwise and perpetuates the marketing lies. I'm amazed there aren't laws protecting customers at this point. 

 

Why is solid core wire illegal in a power cord?

@immatthewj They can be a significant fire or shock hazard for the reasons @61falcon and others laid out.

I finally bit the bullet and bought the long delayed power cords for my good stereo system. I have long believed that power cables make a difference as I’ve heard the difference, but deciding on which ones to buy is not so easy.
I’ve been delaying this purchase for years for fear of foolishly spending too much money on “snake oil” cables. Finally, I just couldn’t stand the mess behind my system any longer, All the cables were too long, crossing each other, coiled to shorten them. Most stock power cables are five or six feet long. With one exception of 54” all my cables should be under three ft. I finally decided on Iconoclast because I know for sure they are well made, and that!s important. But the other reason also has little to do with sound quality. It’s because I could get them to the exact inch I needed to reduce clutter, crossing power cords,and coils of excess power cords.I know of no other cables that can be ordered by the inch. Now all my power cables are no longer touching any other power cables (or interconnects) and I don’t need cable lifters because they are all off the floor because they are the right length. Whether this improves my amplifier I can’t say, but I can say my system does sound improved for every source.

With my experience an expensive supposedly good power cord used for an amplifier gives you a little bit more power. I would not say that it really affects the sound quality, either in SS or tubes. 

Regarding the optimal power cord, one of the manufacturers (I seem to remember maybe Steve Nugent with Empirical Audio) used to say that Romex would actually make a pretty good power cord and that twisted 10 awg THHN would be better since twisting would reduce inductance. It seems twisted THHN in conduit would make a good in-wall wire for a dedicated line.

Chris at VH Audio offers his star quad 12 awg x 4 (stranded copper) bulk power cable because the star quad geometry reduces inductance even more than with a twisted pair.  Reducing inducance is a good thing for power cables and speaker cables.

My DIY 1M long power cables feeding my amplifiers also have a star quad geometry using four runs of 10 awg NOS Western Electric tinned copper wire for an aggregate total of 7 awg per pole.  Ground is also 7 awg.  I don't lose sleep over voltage drop.

@devinplombier +1 the best PC is no PC/IEC! House wiring and quality of power supplied to the house is the key!

@devinplombier I pretty sure that hardwired appliances have to have a disconnect of some kind. This may have not been the case in the past.

This is a keeper.

 

1971gto455ho

520 posts

03-15-2025 at 06:20pm

Such BS for the supposedly educated elderly. Perhaps marketing thinks many are lonely, ignored, and have little more than hobbies to pass their time away. So nail them with Unsubstantiated incredibly expensive BS.

 

No, that could create another problem. No power disconnecting means at the hard wired piece of equipment.

Is a disconnect required at permanently connected appliances? Generally, electric cooktops, dishwashers and the like don't have a disconnect at the appliance, just at the panel. That's also why they have to have dedicated circuits.

Like I said, for this to be kosher you'd have to "permanently install" your amps. That may be inconvenient, though only mildly so by audiophile standards.

And again I would not recommend Romex for this application but rather EMT or MC, which provide insulated ground as a bonus. I don't disagree that the latter, like so many other things, is misunderstood by many audiophiles but it does provide some benefits.

 

@immatthewj said:

@jea48 , but I thought that what I was getting out of this discussion was that the reason after market cords could be an improvement was due to less voltage drop. Which made me think that the voltage drop to be concerned about would be that which occurs AFTER the wall branch circuit? Was I thinking about this incorrectly? Because if I was thinking about this correctly, I was also thinking that completely eliminating the power cord between the gear and the in wall branch circuit would be the best way to eliminate voltage drop?

.

In response to my post:

Not really. It would merely be an extension of the in wall branch circuit wiring.

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I thought that what I was getting out of this discussion was that the reason after market cords could be an improvement was due to less voltage drop.

That’s definitely important for feeding a power amplifier.

Not really an issue feeding a solid state DAC though. But with that said in 1998-1999 I bought a new Arcam alpha 9 CDP that Stereophile gave, as I recall, a B+ review rating. It would have been A- except for,... which I can’t remember.

I swear the power cord at best was 16awg wire. A flimsy looking cheap power cord. Ya, plenty big for a unit that says on the rear panel by the IEC inlet 20VA max. (20 watts max). For the heck of it I had an unused OEM 14/3 power cord that came with an ARC amp. I hooked it up to the Apha 9. The CDP sounded better to me. Why? Beats the heck out of me. Don’t knock it, until you try it!

.

Which made me think that the voltage drop to be concerned about would be that which occurs AFTER the wall branch circuit?

Like I said, i don’t think of the power cord as an extension of the branch circuit wiring. It is said the power cord is not an extension of the in wall branch circuit wiring, but rather an extension of the audio equipment AC power wiring. Some say it’s the last 5ft to 6ft of the power wiring feeding the equipment.

What ever an aftermarket power cord does, at least from my personal, and umpteen other audiophiles listening experiences, they do hear differences from aftermarket power cords. Some power cords for the better, and others for the worse. I think it has a lot to do with the equipment it is connected to.

I get kick out of posts where a guy says there can’t possibly be a difference in power cords. If the wire gauge is big enough for the connected load of the equipment that’s all that matters. But then they say, they tried a so called audiophile power cord and their OEM power cord sounded better. What??? A power cord can’t possibly make a difference but the audiophile power could did not sound as good as the OEM cord that came with the equipment. Can’t have it both ways.

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In other words, eliminate (a) the amp’s IEC receptacle, (b) the power cord, and (c) the wall receptacle altogether.

No, that could create another problem. No power disconnecting means at the hard wired piece of equipment. A plug and receptacle is an approved disconnecting means.

Also, imo, the hard wired Romex in no way could be considered as a power cord.

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Oh and that wiring method would yield you an isolated ground, by definition

Probably one of the most miss understood grounds by audiophiles.

The Isolated Ground

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Oh and that wiring method would yield you an isolated ground, by definition

My point was merely that you could, if you really wanted to of course, connect an amp’s power supply DIRECTLY to the electrical panel.

In other words, eliminate (a) the amp’s IEC receptacle, (b) the power cord, and (c) the wall receptacle altogether.

Home run from PCB board to panel.

 

Not really. It would merely be an extension of the in wall branch circuit wiring.

Example of a solid core wire power cord.

@jea48 , but I thought that what I was getting out of this discussion was that the reason after market cords could be an improvement was due to less voltage drop.  Which made me think that the voltage drop to be concerned about would be that which occurs AFTER the wall branch circuit?  Was I thinking about this incorrectly?  Because if I was thinking about this correctly, I was also thinking that completely eliminating the power cord between the gear and the in wall branch circuit would be the best way to eliminate voltage drop?

As far as your examples of where it is acceptable to run exposed NM cable, I am thinking that the attic would be included?

I suppose that, theoretically, you could bolt down your amps to make them "permanently connected appliances" per UL 749 (appliances that are connected to the electrical supply by means of other than a supply cord and an attachment plug), get rid of your IEC receptacles at the rear of your amps and solder 12awg wire directly on to your power supply PCBs, and run single uninterrupted runs of wire to your panel.

You could not use Romex in this application because it is only allowed inside walls. You would have to install appropriately secured, listed conduit in the prescribed manner.

 

 

@aberyclark , take a real of this link

• https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-i-have-found-makes-a-good-cable

It explains about cable design choices

Regards

@immatthewj Said:

I guess if one was to run Romex straight out of the wall and connect it to a IEC connector and connect one’s gear to household AC in that manner, that would be the best solution?

Not really. It would merely be an extension of the in wall branch circuit wiring.

Example of a solid core wire power cord.

Pangea Audio AC 9SE MKII Signature Power Cable 2 Meter

Click on left side #7 image.

 

 

Thank you, @61falcon  and @mclinnguy ; that makes sense.

If voltage drop is the reason/advantage of after market power cords, on a strictly hypothetical (or strictly theoretical) basis, I guess if one was to run Romex straight out of the wall and connect it to a IEC connector and connect one's gear to household AC in that manner, that would be the best solution?

And I did typed "hypothetical" and "theoretical": I am, in no way, intending to try this.

edit: what he said ^ just in different words: 

@immatthewj

Why is solid core wire illegal in a power cord?

It is quite possible (and rather likely) that after multiple handling and installations it could get bent back and forth enough times for one of the solid copper "rods" to break, which then would be a fire hazard. The same copper wires in your walls of course are static and are not flexed back and forth after initial installation.

I'm not atmosphere, but I'll take a stab @immatthewj question:

Standed wire in cords allows it to be flexible cord. If you used one solid strand of copper, it would be inflexible and prone to damaged if flexed too much. single strand in the walls is fine because it is a permanent installation and not subject to flexing.

@aberyclark +1 

Yep, fuse resistance is significant impactor of IR (voltage) drop in amp’s power supply. Major problem with amp’s internal power quality is power transformer/rectifier/capacitors, not PC! 

if outlet wiring exceeds 20ft length, PC becomes less relevant to listenable IR drop issue..

solid core wire for a power cord is illegal and for a good reason! 

@atmasphere , this is a stupid question I am sure, but since I don't know the answer I have to ask it.  Why is solid core wire illegal in a power cord?  Thanks.  

Such BS for the supposedly educated elderly. Perhaps marketing thinks many are lonely, ignored, and have little more than hobbies to pass their time away. So nail them with Unsubstantiated incredibly expensive BS. 

No, they did not explain exactly how it would cause that. They did ask for a good description of the cord and wanted to ensure it was a Bryston OEM cord. That's why I was wondering what the exotic cords to to the AC signal that could create an issue e.g. greater capacitance or maybe a lot of inductance?

@61falcon 

Did the Bryston folks explain why aftermarket cables would throw their amps into protection? That's interesting

@aberyclark 

Way to yank the dog's chain, man!

NOW, what about expensive "exotic" aftermarket fuses. What is one gaining (besides the case) with this $300 fuse?

https://www.thecableco.com/accessories/masterpiece-m1-fuse.html

 

 

@61falcon The Bryston reply is interesting. Bryston seems to have others with issues and the cord was the culprit in some cases. It goes to show, if you are having some kind of electrical issue, try the stock cords and fuses before contacting the manufacturer. 

Some of the power cables I've seen pictures of are really thick and exotic looking. What could those manufacturers be doing in those designs? Are they adding capacitance or inductance that affects sound? I think most posts on this thread are just concerned with voltage drop so if you have proper gauge, that shouldn't be an issue. Most of my big class A/B amplifiers draw well under 6 amps so 14 gauge, 6' power cord should cover my needs.

Some years ago, I had a Bryston 4BSST2 amplifier that would occasionally go out on a safety fault. I contacted Bryston technical support and the first concern they had is if I was using a non-OEM power cord. They explained that some of the "hopped up" cords could cause that condition and really frowned on the after market cords. It turned out to be a ground loop but I found the manufacturer's concern interesting.