Had the pleasure of listening to 4 hi end preamplifiers this weekend. And each preamp sounded very nice. But they were different. Each preamplifier has different circuitry and within the frequency spectrum there was more vibrancy in some areas versus other areas. Amplifiers are the same way.
It takes a while to appreciate sound differences between preamplifiers. And then you got the issue of Breakin which further changes the color.
clearly designers are playing around with all the internal circuitry in a manner that hopefully will be appealing. Clearly, these units do not get out of the way when it comes to moving a signal through the box.
I think solid state is more susceptible to coloring versus tubes. Tubes color sound as well.
It's all about marketing different ways to color Music. This isn't necessarily bad but it's never really talked about this way.
@jumia (I dunno) … all things equal, and cost not being a consideration, then IME (and in theory) one would want mono blocks are shorter speaker cables… especially for cable capacitance.
Some of the Linz designs (or weaving patterns) are pretty low in inductance.
But I think it is probably mostly lost when one hits the passive crossover, as there is a lot happening there, and the amp should generally be able to overcome capacitance and inductance.
However an active crossover should be a lot easier to damp and control.
How “hearable” it is, is uncertain, as sometimes I can believe I hear it, and at other times then sometimes I do not believe it. So i am not 100% certain.
With respect to ICs, the shorter the better, and especially with cart to phono stage.
If one is pushing a long distance between a preamp and amp(s) then they probably don’t want high capacitance cable and a passive preamp. If they are using a passive preamp, then they probably want to have the volume cranked up it, which means lower amp gain… if it needs to play quiet and loud, depending on the day and time, then a passive is not as ideal as an active preamp (IMO).
In your case, I’d suggest just putting a couple of 3’ pieces of speaker wire and try it. If it works, then sell the 12’ ones. I just got some cotton covered stuff from Jupiter Capacitor to try, but I could not find any bananas, so it’ll have to wait… and I am literally still running the lamp cord that I put in a year ago.
That 12ga cotton covered copper stuff is cheap enough to try.
But I am also trying to sell a couple of tube amps (mono block pair and a stereo amp), and if so I will go to XLR based mono blocks.
Clearly you understand impedance and volts and ohms, with respect to their relationships to all the various pieces of gear. This is quite a feat to accomplish in my opinion.
Not really… a couple of electronics courses and most gear is designed to work as designed.
But it is not like, say a ski binding with a DIN7880 standard where they all conform.
Ideally all the sources would be some DIN with say 600 ohms output impedance, and all amps using another DIN specifying say 100k ohms input impedance.
However it is more like the Wild West with RCAs, and more standardised with XLRs and pro audio.
Adding in high capacitance cables, and long cables, are ways to coulor the sound… and totally ignoring what is happening inside of the preamp, the input and output impedances make a difference.
But the speakers are usually doing way more in terms of distortion, so I think starting there is generally more wise… and the more things that are lower distortion in the chain, seem to make it easier than trying to correct things with cables and coloured preamps.
Clearly you understand impedance and volts and ohms, with respect to their relationships to all the various pieces of gear. This is quite a feat to accomplish in my opinion.
Are you of the school that sees a difference between a longer speaker cable? I say this because I have 12 foot transparent speaker cables, and then I bought mono blocks which means I could've used a 1 m speaker cable. After spending $2500 for a speaker cable I wish I would've waited. Also interconnects, the shorter the better?
do the lengths when they are 12 feet or less really matter when it comes to speaker or interconnect cables?
holmz ...The source output impedance is VERY low according to what I see listed for my ModWright 9.0X phono stage. Couldn`t find anything showing exactly what it is.
The amp`s input impedance is 28K ohms
The most important here is the listening level, and whether the interconnects to the amp is short or not.
Much easier if the passive to amp is a stereo amp and short ICs, then a long length to mono blocks across the room.
Every amp I own, and have owned, is / has been rated to reach full power with less than 2 volts at the input. If you have a good 2 volts to work with, impedances are well matched, and the system caters to your desired volume level ( s ), when does the preamp’s additional voltage kick in? Most preamps in most systems are still used in attenuation mode, ime.
Actually an amp requiring 5V would be better and the preamp needs to use less attenuation. Basically the lower the amp gain, the better.
Or the closer the preamp runs towards 0dB attenuation, the better.
Correction, they offer one solid state preamplifier with no phono stage , but no pure lion stage tube preamps
They always like to stuff things with a photo stage or headphone amplifier.
Not interested in solid state preamplifiers hey sixfrom McIntosh. Have Mono blocks that are solid state I wish I could get them with tubes. I think McIntosh is good for amplifiers but not much else. The processors they sell basically are marantz put into a Macintosh box.
Friday I bought a DVD/CD player for a friend at a rummage sale, $15..
Saturday a different friend brought his expensive CD player to compare with my Sony xa5400ES.
Both friends units directly to my Cayin Integrated Tube amp using it’s 6sn7s and 6sl7s for gain, KT88’s for power.
Both sounded very good.
Played my Sony, via McIntosh Tube preamp, bunch of 12...s, volume at 50 then off to the Cayin for remote volume via the 6’s. it sounded great. Just slighty preferred to the two others, but that is what I am used to and chose over others. Friend agreed it sounded darn good, no sense it was digital.
Next try my Sony direct to the Cayin. Without the mx110z, it sounded thin, not harsh or digital, just thin if you catch my description.
Next try friends fancy CD player via my mx110z: it sounded bloated, too much bass,
Taught me much unknown about my CD player and Preamp.
mx110z’s MM Phono stage always sounds better than any other phono stage I have compared it to.
Prior McIntosh SS C28 MM Phono sounded worse than any other phono I compared it to, so I sold it.
when does the preamp’s additional voltage kick in? Most preamps in most systems are still used in attenuation mode, ime.
In attenuation mode, all a pre does is add distortion if impedances are properly matched.
All volume control systems, whether active or passive, attenuate the signal from a digital system. This is because the Redbook requirement is for too much voltage for the power amp so it has to be attenuated.
Passive systems can cause the source to make distortion depending on the value of the control in the passive. In addition they can introduce colorations since they lack the ability to control the cable. Successful passive setups are due to extreme care and/or very good luck!
The dudes over at the science whatever site are all telling this is the way to go. I think there’s more to it than that personally.
You are correct. The 'dudes' have yet to realize how an interconnect can influence the sound of a system if the variables around it are uncontrolled. This is where an active line stage can be quite helpful, in addition to superior volume control (over a digital volume control).
IMO all passably transparent preamps should have EQ of some sort. I tried the straight dac to amp and for some music it was pretty good…. But anything with a meaty midrange it was bright and kind of harsh. Very detailed though on an RME DAC. The dudes over at the science whatever site are all telling this is the way to go. I think there’s more to it than that personally.
agreed, the discussion now seems to focus on the likelihood of impedance mismatchesbetween DAC and power amp, methinks. In attenuation mode, all a pre does is add distortion if impedances are properly matched. We are finally getting somewhere on this topic…
Every amp I own, and have owned, is / has been rated to reach full power with less than 2 volts at the input. If you have a good 2 volts to work with, impedances are well matched, and the system caters to your desired volume level ( s ), when does the preamp’s additional voltage kick in? Most preamps in most systems are still used in attenuation mode, ime.
@holmz...The source output impedance is VERY low according to what I see listed for my ModWright 9.0X phono stage. Couldn`t find anything showing exactly what it is.
My Tortuga passive and has plenty of power, punch, clarity and detail. Width is nicely presented and depth too.
I use a 1/2 meter Audience IC that goes to a Modwright phono stage from the Tortuga.
I am using 1/2 meter Kimber KCAG IC`s from the Tortuga to my ATI 3002 amp. The ATI feeds a pair of Revel F52`s.
I use a 1 meter pair of Zu IC`s into a Dayton Audio SA 1000 subwoofer amp which powers a Revel Ultima Sub 15 subwoofer. I have 3 other subs in the mix too.
This is my recipe for a very satisfying, enjoyable sounding system.
This works well and It will play as loud as you would ever want.
Try a Tortuga passive, you might be pleasantly surprised by what you hear 👍
@scmyes ^that^ is a recipe.
We don’t know your source’s output impedance nor the amp’s input impedance.
So it is a nice story, but doesn’t answer why it seems to sound OK.
But we at least have a combo that is good, and we can say why it is good then that is even better.
I am pretty sure that it the witches brew of cables are good, and they are short, which is also good.
No. They are likely deigned to have good sound and or good performance (which are not always the same...). Some have tube outputs and are designed to have as low an output impedance as the tube will permit... at any rate, low output impedance isn't usually the goal although its usually desired.
One of the main reasons we've sold line stages over the last 25 years and right to this day is that analog volume controls often outperform digital volume controls. With an active preamp you then set up the DAC to have the volume all the way up so there is no resolution lost, and then control the volume with an analog control.
The problem with a passive is the volume control is a series element with the output impedance of the source. This means the source impedance is raised quite a lot insofar as the interconnect cable between the passive control and power amp is concerned (and also as far as the power amp is concerned). So controlling the interconnect cable, even if the control is 10KOhms is a lost cause. That is why passives are so susceptible to interconnect cable interaction.
My Tortuga passive and has plenty of power, punch, clarity and detail. Width is nicely presented and depth too.
I use a 1/2 meter Audience IC that goes to a Modwright phono stage from the Tortuga.
I am using 1/2 meter Kimber KCAG IC`s from the Tortuga to my ATI 3002 amp. The ATI feeds a pair of Revel F52`s.
I use a 1 meter pair of Zu IC`s into a Dayton Audio SA 1000 subwoofer amp which powers a Revel Ultima Sub 15 subwoofer. I have 3 other subs in the mix too.
This is my recipe for a very satisfying, enjoyable sounding system.
This works well and It will play as loud as you would ever want.
Try a Tortuga passive, you might be pleasantly surprised by what you hear 👍
That is super low output impedance, compared to a CD player or other sources with 600-1000 ohms.
It is the stuff in ~1k ohms or the 10k ohms range that would then get knocked down 40dB (or maybe it is 20dB in both volts and impedance… so one goes from 1k ohm to 100k ohms, and trying to drive the amp with a 100 k ohm input impedance.
A 112 ohms output impedance going through an attenuation of -40dB should be 11,2 k ohms?
It is probably better to run the knob at -20 and knock down the DAC by -20dB to get to -40dB.
Your last sentence only applies to digital attenuation, which is lossy.
I am running an RME, so I knock my DAC down by 10-15dB just to get the DAC and the other sources to be about the same, which are 4 RCA sources and 2 XLR sources. It seems OK, but I could see knocking down 6 bits off of 16 would be a problem. Especially if only 12-13 bits were in action.
We will see what @atmaspheresays, but half the reason I post is to get corrected if my thinking is off… but I think/believe I have this right.
my Dac is an Antelope Zodiac Platinum with a relay based attenuator and an output impedance of 56 Ohms unbalanced into my Wavac EC 300b power amplifier with an input impedance of 100kOhms. Hard to see where the problem might be with a 200x span. I’d love to try Ralph Carstens ClassD monos on balanced; this raises the Zodiac’s output impedance to 112 Ohms for his 100kOhms input impedance. Most problems discussed around attenuators deal with marginal situations, which on modern designs to my knowledge are rare. Your last sentence only applies to digital attenuation, which is lossy.
@antigrunge2 Can you find it for your specific DAC?
In the example I gave above, one would likely be better off to adjust the DAC’s output level much lower, and then a passive pre would be cranked around louder.
I suppose those with a passive pre and a DAC with adjustable output level, could do this at home and tell us if there is a difference or not?
A DAC without the output level adjustment should not be as good (if all else was equal)…
@charles1dadit has been some of covered in a few places…
In theory and on paper, the passive approach should be more invisible/transparent, more out of the way.
In theory it starts to barf when the passive is doing more control.
Running “wide open” the passive is essentially a wire.
Remember that the passive pre is attenuating both voltage as well as impedance.
The pros and cons from my list:
A high output impedance source = con
Low output impedance source = pro
High input impedance amp = pro
Low input impedance amp = con
High listening levels = pro
Low listening levels = con
Low sensitivity speakers = pro
High sensitivity speakers = con
High gain amp = con
Low gain amp = pro
So the worst situation is driving some highly seniors give horns, at low volume through an amp with high gain from a high impedance source.
The volume is then cranked around anticlockwise, and the passive is attenuating the already high output impedance of the source to become tens of hundreds of kohms.
If it is less sensitive speakers listen to at higher volume then the passive does not attenuate nearly as much.
If we add in ICs with high capacitance or inductance then we get a filter.
At that point it is often better to have a preamp than a passive, when the passive is trying to go very low… and it’s better to run a passive if it is doing very little attenuation.
If the active line stage is good at controlling the interconnect cable it stands a very good chance of being more neutral than a passive device and possibly also lower distortion, depending on the passive device to which its compared.
So its a mixed bag, which is why this conversation persists.
Such a keen point.
I n theory and on paper, the passive approach should be more invisible/transparent, more out of the way. Yet in practice, a high quality active will often yield the better or more realistic sound quality. It is indeed a “mixed bag.”
could you kindly also get into the differences between attenuation and amplification? It seems hard to get across that most dacs only need the former whereas adding a pre by definition adds distortion.
The problem we're all up against is that Redbook requires for more voltage than any power amplifier would ever need. So the signal has to be attenuated to do any good.
That means that in the case of a passive the control value becomes critical. Lower values like 10K work better, but most sources won't support driving 10K- they are more comfortable driving higher impedances. This can result in a loss of bass and distortion on the part of the source if its having issues.
Active preamps do indeed add distortion. However they tend to be less susceptible to interconnect interactions. There are four functions that any line stage should have:
1) volume control
2) input switching
3) supply any needed gain
4) control the interconnect cable to prevent interaction
Of these the 4th is least understood in home audio but well understood in pro audio, which is why they can use inexpensive cables and still get neutral sound.
If the active line stage is good at controlling the interconnect cable it stands a very good chance of being more neutral than a passive device and possibly also lower distortion, depending on the passive device to which its compared.
So its a mixed bag, which is why this conversation persists.
Pretty much all capacitors inside a preamp Color the sound. Are capacitors the sole culprit in coloring the sound? Great capacitors, like Teflon, allow the dynamics to be where they should be. The peeks and the valleys are respected. Assuming you have a great amplifier to go along with us.
You hear preamp manufacturers touting our device gets out of the way it doesn't interfere with the music. This could not be further from the truth.
could you kindly also get into the differences between attenuation and amplification? It seems hard to get across that most dacs only need the former whereas adding a pre by definition adds distortion. (While this may run counter to commercial interests, a degree of intellectual purity seems desirable in this discussion…)
when compared to a good passive, it's just no contest.
I've tried many passive preamps, thinking "that must be the answer". It isn't--they are all dry and flat.
Passive Volume Controls are very susceptible to interconnect cable interactions, combined with the output capacitance of the source and the input impedance of the amp. If properly set up they can be excellent and if anything is off the very same unit can sound 'dry and flat' because of adverse interactions.
In any event you have to be careful of the interconnect cable; if you've auditioned cables and heard differences you know what I'm talking about.
Active tube preamps usually have output coupling capacitors which, no matter the quality of that part, will color the sound. In addition they are often single-ended circuits and so too are susceptible to interconnect cable interactions.
If you really want to hear what the recording sounds like, you have to eliminate the interconnect cable as a variable. The balanced line standard (AES48) offers a means to do that, but you have to adhere to its tenents to do that and most balanced high end audio preamps do not.
I use recordings I made that are on LP and CD so I know what the recording is supposed to sound like. They are very helpful when a reference is needed (is it too lush or too dry or whatever...) to know what is going on...
Preamps vs no preamp, tube preamp vs SS preamp - I don't believe one can make a global generalization on which is better because it differs depending on the components chosen in one's audio chain.
As a manufacturer, each tube has a different sound 6922/6DJ8 - 6SN7 - 101D - etc. We designed a preamp where you could change output resistors from metal, carbon, etc., etc,. It actually was an easy way to change the sound based on the recording and in our opinion save time in changing interconnects.
Every time we build a component, we end up feeling that the one we just built is more important that the last one. At this time after building Class A tube mono blocks, we think that this is the most important part of a system. While the DAC and preamp are important, these Class A amps are just stunning in every system we have demonstrated them in from horn systems, to Sonus Faber, to Vivid, to YG Acoustics. But keeping on subject, you have to determine what sound you prefer in your system and be happy with what you select.
Great topic and completely agree, since I require no switching or phono stage, what is this but a volume knob? Having had the Freya + to play around with tubes, I was puzzled when it blew up and needed a replacement when it was out for repair. The electrocompianet preamp I got from the dealer naturally went with the amps I loved and purchased from that company, but overall veil lifted and all that nonsense was true. I actually think the preamp is more important than the amp. Driving Maggies isn’t easy but somehow everything sounded better. Need to put the Freya up for sale, it’s great but no comparison.
If you are planning on using the marantz as a preamp, I did this once with a different model marantz avr and it sounded horrible. You can give it a try though, as it doesn't cost you anything but a little bit of time.
Your absolutely right. Preamps have their own characteristic sound. When I did a demo in my first home system with 3 preamps before I purchased. All were on my turntable and speakers in my room. What matters is what type of sound do you like and are you happy with it. The three power amps also were different. The right combo was the winner.
While electronic design of preamps (or any component) is important, so is the choice of specific components… resistors, capacitors… etc. each choice makes a difference.
The head designer of one of the premier electronics companies (MBL ?) said, I can make a component sound whatever I like. If I want it warmer I use X capacitors… if I want it detailed I use Y resistors. I can make a component sound like anything I want.
So, the very best designers craft the sound to satisfy their clientele. This company decided there was a limited market (and appreciation for) for their very highest level products. So were creating a product line for the less discriminating tastes. I think there average component was well over $50K… so they wanted to get some of the chicken McNugget folks in the $20K range.
BAT preamps are my reference. I’ve had 5 of them, and never had a bad one. I appreciate the “color” of a BAT. Same with a Threshold T2 and T3 Preamps. Old school I know, but they were very good products. I’m stuck in the past.
Your pre-amp and your speakers account for most of the systems SQ. The "Tone" of a system can be changed with different cables...power cords....and power conditioners. That's why we are always Tweaking.....
More than anything else a good active preamp will provide a more 3D soundstage.Of course they have to synergise with the power amp to do that but when you get the combination right it can make the difference between a good sound and a really great one.It is simply sounds more involving because it is revealing more of the stereo effect that is encoded in the recording.It is higher resolution.
Some active valve preamps will add tonal colour and some are tonally neutral.Some SS active preamps add tonal colour too.It is just a matter of finding the one you prefer.
I have found the Supratek 6SN7 based preamps to be tonally neutral.Very clear and open and 3D but neutral.I have heard SS preamps that sound very similar but they are very high end Swiss designs that cost 4-5 times as much.
It‘s funny how people argue about this subject. Attenuation and amplification are fundamentally different and the simple fact of the matter is that dacs only require the former. So what may be useful in amplifying a phono signal with rare exemptions become distorition when a dac is used.
But one can also just use an amp as a buffer to change impedance.
If the DAC does the volume, and not other things need to be switched, then one does not need the attenuation nor the amp.
One of the rare exceptions is to drive the cables better to the amps, should the output be driven to very low listening levels. If the OP is not using horns and a high gain amplifier, and not listening at a low level, then they have less to consider.
"scm: Thanks re Tortuga LDR, I’ll try to listen to it sometime. But it needs external power, and so it is not truly passive. I have a 12 VDC battery-powered Dodd Audio preamp which is not passive, but it’s absolutely silent. Can you switch the Tortuga to battery power?"
.I have mine hooked up with a battery supply and it made for a much ’blacker’ back ground.
It‘s funny how people argue about this subject. Attenuation and amplification are fundamentally different and the simple fact of the matter is that dacs only require the former. So what may be useful in amplifying a phono signal with rare exemptions become distorition when a dac is used.
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