kenjit
You asked about how an amp can be designed toward a particular speakers driver. As I'm sure you know impedance changes due to frequency, a very low frequency signal at a loud volume creates a low impedance. Not all amps are designed to be a one size fits all answer. Sub amps have dozens of signal filters to try to match the signal to the amplifier, a compromise of the music, and low frequency amps are the easiest to design because they only have to deal with a very small frequency range. The reason why every sound system needs a sub is because amps can't be all things to all speakers but an amp designed for low impedance loads can do a better job than and amp designed for 10Khz. The perfect speaker would have an amp for every frequency but 15 thousand amps in our living rooms is a little much. Matching a curve is very hard and if music was a sign wave it would be easier but music is very complex and impedance and many other factors in a music signal reproduction show themselves to amps at the same time which makes amplifying those signals a compromise when heard on the speaker. Amps that are at least designed to amplify the best guesses of the complex signals created by recordings in a narrow frequency band are better than brute force amps that are huge and can handle a .5 ohm load created by a synth but can't at the same time reproduce the triangle. This is why no matter how expensive the speaker and amplifier it never sounds like a real instrument.
Once I was mixing an orchestra at a church and the conductor asked a violinist with a Stradivarius to come and play for me at the mixing console, well she did and tears came to my eyes the sound was so beautiful, I've never heard a recording half that good.
|
I don't mind active or powered speakers, but my last set of actives had failed amps on both speakers. Now I had no speakers or amps working correctly. Great that they were under warranty and such but I'd rather not be out everything for at home relaxing.
|
Genelecs are super accurate and sound really good for studio music creation or cinema, but for audiophile home music listening they sound bit too clinical and chiseled for my taste. My guess is it's most likely due to the Class D amps that drive them.
|
|
Why I will never buy another active speaker: My $2500 sub with massive D-class amp inside, died after a decade of service. There is no practical way to repair a D-class amp. Sorry, but if I were to spend any amount of money on a speaker, I would expect it to last more than a decade. It should last decades.
|
Well, I guess a good engineer could put drivers and an amp inside a concrete block that weighs about 300 pounds. Doubt it would sell very well. And Vibration dampening systems ARE important under turntables at the very least, regardless of what you are playing said turntable through.
|
So long as the cross-over is placed prior to amplification it is - by definition - active.
This is incorrect, there are passive line level crossovers as well as active.
|
So, this thread is really about active, bundled speakers. While all active speakers are powered, the reverse scenario is not always the case; a 'powered' speaker strictly just refers to a passively configured ditto but with the amp (plus of course the passive filter) built into the speaker.
@johnk wrote:
Great for pro audio use and in studios or for those who want simplicity in a system but most audiophiles want outboard amplification. Also many don’t want to bin a speaker setup because one amp failed inside. My experience with powered speakers failing is fairly vast and while with a few I could repair or replace amps most are junk after just 1 amp fails in a stereo pair. I have built actives but I outboard amplification because of this.
Indeed; active can be with outboard amplification, and obviously also DSP/electronic cross-over and DAC.
Most by default assume and refer to active as a bundled solution, which it needn't be. As mentioned previously one could, with a worthwhile distinction, refer to it as an active speaker or an active system, with the former being the bundled solution and the latter an "active with separate, outboard components." So long as the cross-over is placed prior to amplification it is - by definition - active.
@kota1 wrote:
If you like to tinker, great. Tinker with the front end. But why tinker matching amps, drivers, and speaker cables when the engineer who DESIGNED the speaker can do it for you at a much lower cost?
You're restricted having only preassembled, bundled active speakers to choose from. You could do anything really with all sizes and types of speakers choosing an outboard, active solution. Of course this way it's up to each to handle all aspects, but with dedication it's hardly an insurmountable challenge to any existing complexity.
Moreover complete pro segment speaker systems are available sans passive XO's, or you could simply rid passive "hifi" speakers of their XO's and start from scratch with active config. and DSP filter settings. Many an audiophile love to tinker with a range of aspects with their setup, so why not take it a step further and master your own filter settings?
And I second the praise for Meyer Sound speakers.
|
unless that amplifier is designed to understand the particular speakers impedance loads
Can you share with us how an amplifier can be designed to a drivers particular impedance load? Especially one as simple as a woofer which we all know has a predictable curve that rises with frequency quite smoothly.
|
Surprised no mention of ATC.
Some of the best sound I have ever had was with ATC Anniversary 50s.
6 Class A amps designed for each driver and active crossovers.
ATC also designs all its drivers and has been building among the best in studios,
performance venues (the Disney, the Sidney Opera House, etc.) and homes around the world for many decades.
They have optimized the advantages of powered speakers.
|
I love Genelec speakers (I spent 200k +) but they are only the example of a speaker with the design concept of making an amplifier with a speaker in mind. Meyer Sound is probably the best example of this, Meyer Sound is more of a concert speaker but they sound great. A perfect amplifier only amplifies the weak original signal, it shouldn’t have a sound at all but since the very complex load the speaker gives to the amp the pathway to simple amplitude multiplication is impossible to do unless that amplifier is designed to understand the particular speakers impedance loads and the unique ways that speaker deals with frequency and how fast all this can happen among other things. I’m sure Genelec didn’t make my "The Ones" speakers with perfect amps because they of course have to keep their prices down like everyone else.
The point is that everyone knows curated speaker and amplifier design is proper but very few are doing it because the community of audiophiles are really out to lunch (I am one) we worry about very esoteric things where there are huge design concept that make great difference in proper sound.
|
A powered speaker is really the epitome of an integrated, better yet a Bose Wave Radio, B&W Zeppelin.
|
OP, reading this thread I fear the confusion you brought up is spot on. Some of these posts cross the line from confusion to delusion...where is this junk???
Genelec’s G Three transduces more unpolluted truth than any other small speaker I’ve auditioned..... My highest recommendation -Herb Reichert
|
|
@clustrocasual The speakers in my profile are active but designed for home use, not studios. None of the links I posted above for two channel are designed for studio monitoring. What is the junk you are referring to? The OP talks about Genelec which are finalists for speaker of the year (and the least expensive of the speakers Stereophile nominated):
"I doubt you'll be surprised when I tell you I am over-the-moon crazy about Genelec's G Three minimonitor. It rendered recordings in a manner that really suits my listening proclivities"- Herb Reichert
|
m-db I'm going to make a movie and do the picture editing and sound myself so I bought the equipment, the studio is in my house, the room looks over a beautiful lake but it's not for public consumption. I live in Eagle Idaho, I'm a political refugee from Southern California like everyone else in Idaho.
I have matched Genelec 8351B's with a Genelec sub in a Dolby Atmos configuration with Protools, an Avid Matrix, and s4 control surface. This system is boring it doesn't sound amazing it's simply accurate. If the original recording is great it sounds great. Audiophile systems that are jaw dropping are not accurate they're extra flavored and sound amazing but I needed the most accurate system I could get, money was not a problem, these speakers were perfect for my size of room and acoustics.
My stereo and home theater are in the same room 90 degrees from the studio system, it has much larger speakers mono block hybrid tube amps and big subwoofers it sounds much better than my studio system but it's not accurate.
clustrocasual I'm not talking about receivers or integrated audio equipment I'm talking about a concept that everyone knows is proper, that being, designing the entire system for each component, along with the room acoustics. But that is very expensive and any audio company would be stupid to come to the audiophile market and say toss your entire system you've spent years refining to buy ours, this company wouldn't even get a start economically. Imagine how comfortable your car seat would be if it was designed for you.
kenjit Genelec speakers are not disco speakers they are made in Finland for studios not really for the home stereo market.
|
|
"If you like to tinker, great. Tinker with the front end. But why tinker matching amps, drivers, and speaker cables when the engineer who DESIGNED the speaker can do it for you at a much lower cost?"
Because it will sound way, way better than integrated junk on the market. How can you not understand that concept? Maybe you’ve just never tried or heard it.
Theoretically when all things are designed with each other, the quality will be the top. But only something like a $1m Audionote system can do that. The products you're talking about (mainstream studio monitoring stuff) is complete crap sounding and matching up some audiophile cables and amps will sound far superior if you know what youre doing.
|
@jtgofish
They are pro use disco speakers. Nothing to do with high end audio. You must be joking
|
I would use Genelec for a studio, dedicated theater, maybe PC speakers, but not for HiFi 2 channel playback, they are too flat, neutral and boring. They can play loud without distorting, but I like magic when I play music, I want to be in the room at the tip of the mic, I want to see the performers.
Just get yourself an EQ and stop complaining about them being flat.
|
OK, but your speakers won't work when the power goes out.
DeKay
|
Your studio? Where are you and what's your hourly?
|
edgyhassle 30 years ago at an AES convention I got to talk to John Meyer about this question, he thought there was no way to design the most accurate sound reproduction system without the speaker being designed for the amp and visa versa isn't even worth a conversation.
The problem is culture, greed, and physics. I have a wonderful 2 channel system that somehow sounds wonderful magical and I'm honestly sad that I don't really want to fix it or make improvements, I love to tweak I love to look forward to a new purchase but I don't need to, I'm happy with my stereo. Greed comes in when the niche shops and companies lure rich guys who were nerds in high school to fit into a very expensive community just like supercars (I have one of those too). Physics enters the equation in a very practical sense, I recorded movie sound for many decades and have been in some of the top recording studios in the world. I know the words that describe the level of quality in an audiophile speaker ad are not the same level that the dialogue was recorded on the set of a huge movie or a world class music recording. Audiophile equipment can't make the original product better, until we get to the point when artificial intelligence can fill in the cracks in the quality of the sound, that time hasn't come yet.
Fun is a good reason to be an audiophile but be careful it's not arrogance because you feel you have listening attributes that are metaphysical, if this is the case you are fooling yourself which happens to be an audiophile speciality and an entire branch of study called psychoacoustics.
|
@gruvjet I have not heard Focals so can’t comment, but your friend lacked the same ROOM you had, so can’t really compare apples to apples.
FYI, did you see this:
|
@fpomposo
Regarding vibration control, it is everything, half the holographic, super detailed sound of my system I attribute to my ceramic cones, maple boards, sorbothane pads on the rack, carbon fiber pucks under the speakers, Schumann wave generator etc... and you cant use most of that stuff on a powered speaker system.
I have used Mapleshade Bedrock stands on my active speakers for years, stunning upgrade:
https://www.mapleshadestore.com/speakerstands.php
|
For HT, active speakers seem to make a lot of sense. invest in a high quality processor vs. amps/receivers.
But for 2 channel, there is no match. In my (limited) experience, the active Focal speakers I heard were "clear" but completely lacked 2D or 3D soundstage. Even my shitty Klipsch Forte IVs with my Krell amp can create the illusion of 3D staging where sounds are not only placed across the left to right stage, but have height and depth. The depth part is when it gets fun!
It really hit me the other day when I was listening to some studio Phish. I've always been a critic of my favorite live band studio recordings, thinking their sound was jumbled and too center weighted. But on this night, I must have finally found the sweet spot. The sounds were staged like a set of waves rolling in from wall to wall. Voice was a few feet in front of me with multiple layers going back 8 feet.
On the powered focals, all I heard were 2 distinct speakers playing sounds, but no staging. And my friend with the Focals had the exact same pre-amp and streamer as me.
|
@kota1 +1 for Meyer Sound. I have had the great pleasure of taking their factory tour twice with great listening sessions. John Meyer is a genius.
They make their own speaker cones from pulp that they grow in their own forests to control the quality…they make their own magnets…each speaker is assembled by one person and thoroughly tested. All powers by internal proprietary designed amps.
they only want the purest sound. The new Bluehorn Monitors blew my mind. I could hear the artist take a breath between versus. Only down side…I can’t afford it.
|
I have used and installed many Genelec's, I've always thought they are great sounding, low distortion, play very loud cleanly and are boring. They are pretty flat response and I guess they work well in a dedicated theater application which is where I have used them, even some of the big big boys with the outboard 6U rack mount amps, 1034B or something like that. The thing I was pretty disappointed is that the amps were made in china, I had to modify three of the 10 inch 2-way Genelec's so we took off the amp boards and sawed off the the MDF that houses them (we automated them on ceiling lifts to fit through existing openings behind a screen) the amp boards, power supply windings, are made in china which is only visible when you take them apart, and those are pretty expensive speakers back when we did this on 2005 or so.
I would use Genelec for a studio, dedicated theater, maybe PC speakers, but not for HiFi 2 channel playback, they are too flat, neutral and boring. They can play loud without distorting, but I like magic when I play music, I want to be in the room at the tip of the mic, I want to see the performers.
Honestly the best powered speakers I've heard in a while are the Heavenly Soundworks, they were at the Long Beach audio show and were pretty awesome, I do like the simplicity of just having 2 speakers and a source like a Aurender...
Regarding vibration control, it is everything, half the holographic, super detailed sound of my system I attribute to my ceramic cones, maple boards, sorbothane pads on the rack, carbon fiber pucks under the speakers, Schumann wave generator etc... and you cant use most of that stuff on a powered speaker system.
|
How do you think vibration effects the sound? To me this is mute, the only way i know of that an electronic component will be affected by vibrations is if there is a magnetic field in the area strong enough to induce current in the system due to said vibrations. There are micro magnetic fields everywhere and some even higher ones due to sun activity, etc. but even those can be easily filtered out in electronic systems, ie feedback, shielding etc. If you're not getting hum in your system from hi magnetic fields (note usually grounding issues), I don't see how the amp inside or outside makes much difference if designed well.
Thats my take but i may be missing something or maybe.
|
I agree, anyone who doesn't do what I do must be confused.
|
I don't think there are really any issues, here, but I have no problems with what anyone believes is a great system. We all have different hearing curves and qualities of attention (the latter can change at any given moment). We all have different means ($$$ that we can dedicate to audio) and different patterning over the years - based on the aforementioned elements as well as the types of music we listen to.
I went from separates and tinkering to an active system (as opposed to simply active speakers) quite a while ago; I've stuck with Meridian gear as much as possible because the system design made so much sense and the sound (relative to the recording qualities) is always "alive" for me - so I don't tinker much anymore (I've no real desire to even experiment with any kind of spatial audio beyond the simple 5.1 system, as I don't watch much in the way of video), which puts me in that category of just loving the music for its own sake.
No big revelations, here, but I enjoy reading about everyone's questioning and experimentation. Whether you've got the system you'll stay with for life or are likely to work for its continuing evolution, I don't see any reason for ego trips; you can't compare subjective results ... just enjoy.
Rich
|
If you like to tinker, great. Tinker with the front end. But why tinker matching amps, drivers, and speaker cables when the engineer who DESIGNED the speaker can do it for you at a much lower cost?
OP, powered speakers show "audiophiles" are a bit confused and that isn’t all their fault. If you are an audio dealer which customer would you prefer, the one upgrading constantly or the customer that is one and done? I think the industry took the more profitable route and created the conditions that caused the confusion. Thankfully companies like Dynaudio, KEF, JBL, etc. are now trying to provide both products and education to remedy the confusion.
|
|
Can you build a great, 2 channel hifi system going active?
These speakers will do everything. You don’t need to lift a finger other then to select the song you want to play. No way you can get the same SQ with the same budget going the traditional route:
Read more here:
|
I have the same situation as @donavabdear , about 17 speakers in my HT most of which are active. I saved myself piles and piles of cash on speakers cables and external amplifiers PLUS get the benefit of active crossovers. The specs for my Paradigm Reference Active speakers are in my system profile. Each speaker is internally biamped. That is like 34 channels of amplification that I didn’t have to buy and setup separately. In a word, the most efficient use of an audiophiles budget is to save money using active speakers and use the money saved on room treatments, clean power, source components, and interconnects.
Dynaudio makes both types of speakers and they break it down in this article:
.
|
also the amplifiers that they use in power speakers are cheap junk.
|
Arguably the highest quality audio systems in the world right now are Level 5 Audionote, and they design every speaker, external xover, transformers, and dampening feet to match.
And its true that audiophiles like to tinker with matching gear - because even a modest amount of matching gears at the audiophile level will vastly outperform Genelecs and lower end integrated stuff like that. So, its worth it.
|
This is a topic that deserves consideration.
I do suspect the home audio enthusiast is paying too much.
You can buy a pair of top model RCF active horn loaded speakers which contain very high quality components and a lot of technology for about a quarter of the price of apparently similar JBL speakers like the M2 which are marketed for home audio.The RCFs may even sound better.They have been receiving excellent reviews.
|
in my thinking, the question is -- will a very good speaker with a very good amp be inferior to a pretty good powered speaker.
While the powered speaker will have an excellent match between the speaker and its amp, will the advantage of having that matchup outweigh the "better" quality of the very good separates?
The audiophile marketplace seems still to prefer the separates, but at this point, it is up to the buyer’s listening preferences.
We have a member here that contended that his powered speakers were better than any "cost-no-object" separates. While his claim did not change my thinking, I was glad for him that he was so happy with his rig. However, I vowed to doubt any further opinions he would post.
Now if Wilson Audio were to ask Nelson Pass to design amps for a powered speaker system, I would be happy to consider such a system might be "better" than separates. But this hasn’t happened (yet?), And current powered speaker offerings are not convincing (to me).
|
vibration dampening systems
Vibration dampening systems. Now I understand.
Someday the powered speaker will be be the audiophile speakers of the future as they are now in concert systems
I’m not sure I’d bet my money on that. The home audiophile manufacturers are making way too much money on selling separates these days, especially at today’s home audio gear prices. I can’t put up any type of argument for Genelec in a recording studio environment, as most studios regard them top of the line, but I think most concert speakers with self-contained amplifiers are probably designed now more for convenience in a concert setting environment (quick setup and tear down), more than anything else. Achieving maximum SPL’s with the smallest and lightest (in weight) cabinet is also the goal for concert sound. Heck, anyone at this moment can go out and buy a set of PreSonus CDL12-34, Meyer Sound Panthers, Clair Bros. C12-i-90, or so many others, if they’d like self-powered concert speakers in their home.
|
Home theater is not hifi. Whatever. You are smoking it's not the same thing as what the audiophile community smokes. Peace ✌️ |
If an engineer can build an amplifier specifically designed for the components of a particular speaker and the way they react to each other electronically the engineer can design the amplifier so that it matches the needs of its drivers and crossover networks, without an amp / speaker unit the engineer is only guessing. Using some random amplifier will never give you the exact needs of your specific speaker unless the speaker and amp are made as a unit.
I have a Dolby Atmos system and a home theater system in the same room, they are set up separately from each other, of course the home theater and stereo sounds much better but the Genelec mixing system sounds more accurate.
You don't have to be much of an audiophile or even a professional audio engineer to be offered vibration dampening systems of all types, to mount under speakers on stands, as equipment racks, under equipment feet, in the internal frame of components, under speaker cable and AC cables, vibration is big business. When the speaker is in the same enclosure as the amp how in the world can you take out vibration if it mattered all powered speakers would sound awful.
With only a few exceptions high end audiophile systems don't design amps and preamps for particular speakers, why because audiophiles like to tinker and argue about how the sound changes when the speaker cables are to close to the floor. Someday the powered speaker will be be the audiophile speakers of the future as they are now in concert systems with networked audio (connectors don't matter). Or perhaps audiophiles don't care about sound and only care about audiophile community, maybe that's ok, I'm one also.
|
vibration systems
Wow, that's a new one on me. It sounds like a term coined from the 1930's.
|
17 of 23 speakers in my studio and home theater systems
Why do you have so many? Why are the remaining 6 not powered? Are you into professional recording? I don't find enough time to listen to my 2 speakers. I am jealous that you have so much time. Enjoy!
|
What you said is not wrong, but it is also not the whole story.
"this concept is much more important to sound quality than the vibration systems we often buy."
This is true when the transparency of a system is very low, like powered Gelenecs with something like Mogami cables. But once you move to very high levels of transparent high-grade audio components, you will begin hearing substantial effects of having the components inside the speaker versus outside or even the sound of a connector. It's not a black and white argument, it's relative to many situational circumstances. Similar to saying "I have a Prius, and all these Forumla 1 engineers who talk about the importance of aeroyamics is simply irrelevant. The difference in horsepower is far more important than the shape of a car." On a Prius, that is absolutely correct.
Therefore, please avoid black and white thinking in audio.
|
|
I've said this before... audiophiles of the type who frequent discussion boards like this are hobbyists. They like playing and experimenting with equipment. If they buy a powered speaker, they've just given up one of the big components with which they can experiment.
The OP's suggestion probably works much better with those who are only interested in music playback but consider the equipment end of things a necessary evil. For them, simpler is better as long as they are getting the sound quality they like.
|
So how do you protect the amplifier inside the speaker from the rear waves off the drivers. That rear wave is equal too the wave coming from the front of the speaker?
|
Very few statement systems have powered drivers with the exception of low frequency drivers in some cases. I can't say I ever heard a powered studio monitor that made my jaw drop, they are really made to be working loudspeakers not home playback systems. Don't confuse decent working performance with the stunning sound of large home audio loudspeakers.
|
Great for pro audio use and in studios or for those who want simplicity in a system but most audiophiles want outboard amplification. Also many don’t want to bin a speaker setup because one amp failed inside. My experience with powered speakers failing is fairly vast and while with a few I could repair or replace amps most are junk after just 1 amp fails in a stereo pair. I have built actives but I outboard amplification because of this.
|
