Power conditioner vs use of a audio grade outlet?

+ 1 Audiophile1

Furutech GTX-D

Oyaide and PS Audio make some very good ones as well, but I've settled on the Furutech for now

Use both. Installing an upgraded outlet is cheap. 

I'm using Audioquest 15amp nrg wall warts with my Niagara 1200 and 3000, which  plugged in with AQ Blizzard Extreme powercords. I went as far as to replace the plastic outlet covers with true wooden ones as well. 

Thank you, @erik_squires  .

@immatthewj

then you are saying that although 5 amps of current are flowing through this white neutral wire, it is not dangerous because the formula dictates that 0 volts are created. In this hypothetical circuit. Correct?

Right. This is why they sometimes connecte the chassis to the neutral. Over time they realized the 0 R expectations didn’t hold often enough to prevent life safety issues.

But you are also saying that in reality this hypothetical circuit doesn’t exist, and the example you used of what does exist is

v=5Ax10R=50V

kind of. The issue isn’t that a good N has R on it, it’s that wiring goes bad. My home audio system has about 2V on the neutral right now. I could touch that, no problem. In a year, who knows?? :)

So yes, wiring is not perfect, but a GOOD conductor has around 0.5 Ohms or less, never perfectly 0 though. Room temperature superconductors don’t exist yet.

The safety issues occur when the conductor is no longer a good one. When it goes bad however is when the voltage rises to unsafe levels.  There are of course also issues where N and hot are reversed.  This is why those $5 3 prong testers alert for this situation as well.

But back to my question that prompted this explanation from you: in the real world circuit that you used for an example

That’s more like a real-world failure example. Not a real-world good circuit.

neutral bar via the white wire? Is it that because of the massive ground cable that ALL resistance disappears at this point and the ingredients for the 50V are gone?

You need to understand that the 2 hots and neutral are coming from a center tapped transformer. Bonding the neutral to ground there forces the neutral to be 0V relative to ground, and the two hots are at 120V relative to it. Assuming you are at ground too, there’s 0V between you and neutral and therefore no current flow.

Now, assume you take a white wire from there, and run it 100’ away. There’s no current, so it’s still at 0 V.

I use high quality outlets for their obvious grabbiness as that's sort of comforting. Note that none of the "premium" AC cables I use display that sort of grabbiness on the component end...weird...

Thank you for sticking with me on this, @erik_squires  , if you could bear with me just a bit longer:

if this was the ideal circuit in a utopian world of circuitry and there was NO resistance

(V=5A x 0R=0V)

then you are saying that although 5 amps of current are flowing through this white neutral wire, it is not dangerous because the formula dictates that 0 volts are created.  In this hypothetical circuit.  Correct?

But you are also saying that in reality this hypothetical circuit doesn't exist, and the example you used of what does exist is

v=5Ax10R=50V

so the white wire (with 10R) is not only carrying current, but because of the 10R it is also carrying volts?  Is that correct?

(And on an aside, doesn't this mean that the old saying, "it's not the volts but the amps that kills you" is not exactly correct, as I am getting out of this that amps without R would not be dangerous?)

But back to my question that prompted this explanation from you: in the real world circuit that you used for an example

V=5Ax10R=50V

what happens to that formula when it reaches the neutral bar via the white wire?  Is it that because of the massive ground cable that ALL resistance disappears at this point and the ingredients for the 50V are gone?

@erik_squires  , on the same subject, what is it that happens to the voltage carried by the white neutral wire when it reaches the neutral/ground bar in the electrical panel that makes it no longer dangerous?

@erik_squires  , thank you for the explanation. 

@immatthewj

The ground conductors must be bonded to neutral at the service entrance. Otherwise you risk having neutral at one voltage and ground at another with high impedance between. In the event of a short to chassis the return current to neutral (perhaps up a pole or on a transformer pad) will be through the top soil which is high impedance, preventing it from working to trip breakers and fuses, leaving a potentially lethal voltage at the chassis.

By bonding ground and neutral at the service entrance you ensure a low impedance return to ground and if a short occurs increase the chance of tripping the breaker before melting a wire and starting a fire.

50 years ago netural was used as a way to ground chassis (the outer metal envelope of appliances) and experience taught us this was bad because neutral carries current, and when that current flows through a bad connection it raises the voltage on the neutral.

The ground wires may go bad, but they should not be carrying current except on an unexpected short, therefore the ground conductors remain at near 0 volts at all times except when a short occurs.

The formula V = I(current) * R(esistance) will help here. If I is 0, then V must be 0 even if R is high. That’s the normal state for the ground wire across your entire home.

Neutral often has current anytime you turn a switch on. Say 10A. Now 10A * R means V is not zero. If you tie that to the outside of your amplifier, you now have an AC voltage you can touch!

This is why 2-wire electrical construction is prohibited today.

@erik_squires  , it took a while, but I think I have finally comprehended the 15A/20A outlet subject.

But

Oh dear dark goddess of the undworld..... no!! 🤣

@vaejoviscarolinanus

The correct thing to do is to use a GFCI outlet OR to have an electrician properly install a grounding electrode and bond it to the neutral at the service entrance. THEN and only then you run a ground to your outlets.

You don’t run a separate ground, and you sure as hell don’t tie your ground to the neutral anywhere else.

for my continuing education only, NOT because I was ever considering doing this, could you explain for me why a separate ground is prohibited?  Again, this is strictly for my education on the subject.  Thank you.

I have an older house and my wiring is only 2 conductors. I have just yesterday ( weird coincidence ordered the 20 amp leviton unit from amazon ( got the orange one for a few bucks cheaper. I am wondering if I should crawl under the house and run a ground rod to the ground part of this outlet or just put a jump over to the neg side and be done?

Oh dear dark goddess of the undworld..... no!! 🤣

@vaejoviscarolinanus

The correct thing to do is to use a GFCI outlet OR to have an electrician properly install a grounding electrode and bond it to the neutral at the service entrance. THEN and only then you run a ground to your outlets.

You don’t run a separate ground, and you sure as hell don’t tie your ground to the neutral anywhere else.

PS- Lacking a ground you can use GFCI for shock prevention when properly labelled, but surge protectors for the most part won’t work right.

I have an older house and my wiring is only 2 conductors. I have just yesterday ( weird coincidence ordered the 20 amp leviton unit from amazon ( got the orange one for a few bucks cheaper. I am wondering if I should crawl under the house and run a ground rod to the ground part of this outlet or just put a jump over to the neg side and be done?

What is PSU?

Power Supply Unit,

????

Hard wire the power conditioner quality power cord directly to the outlet wiring removing two connection points, the male plug and outlet socket.  Less is more.

What is PSU?

Clean power is important (dedicated power line, HQ outlet, no artifacts)but only part of the whole story. The biggest problem in every power supply is still the overall quality of the psu because it will define the sound of the amp/DAC etc. Take a closer look.

In some cases the PS audio multiwave feature can counter balance psu quality problems by using higher frequency charging cycles for the caps. In other cases balanced power can solve problems.

One deserves the other.

In audio, everything effects (and affects) everything else.

Why would a person seeking absolute excellence in playback scrimp on any power supply component?  Penny wise and pound ($7,000.00) foolish.

There are many great choices available.  Pick 1, or 2, or 3.  Choose 1.

Duh.

@erik_squires  , okay, thanks, I must have misunderstood something on that previous thread.  I'll try to find it later & maybe paste the link to it for you?

@arcticdeth LOL...thanks for the laugh and common sense.

@immatthewj

You are not wrong to worry about making sure the wiring and breakers and outlets are all safe to use together.

Breakers must be rated at no more amperage than the wiring can support.

Non-locking, 120V/15A duplex outlets are rated for use in 20A circuits, but the socket doesn’t support the use of a 20A plug, with the rotated hot. From an audio perspective, the 20A outlets are not better. There’s no more metal or grip there than in the 15A units. It is a practical way to tell end users, usually in commercial settings, quickly what they can/cannot plug their big ass vacuum cleaner or dough mixer or whatever into.

However, if you are running 20A dedicated circuits, you might as well use the 20A sockets. :) If you plan to use a dedicated audio circuit with 4 outlets though most electricians would stick to the 15A sockets.

Think of it as 20A sockets are for dedicated 20A circuits with no more devices on it. It says "hey, you can plug in your table saw, and just your table saw, here! We planned for that"

The 15A sockets say "You can plug in a few average appliances to us."

yup....I use Maestro's also

So OP did you consider the Furutech wall plugs? 

Errr, never use 16ga for house wiring as mentioned above.

I agree!

Mike

Errr, never use 16ga for house wiring as mentioned above.

@erik_squires  you will not get any argument from me re NEC.  I am totally learning.  It was just that I participated in a thread not all that long ago, ad to make the long story shorter, I was saying that I had 20A outlets and 12-2 and I was protecting them with a 15A breaker as I thought that would be safer.  I was told that the breaker itself was what determined the circuit, and although I might be right that having the lower amperage breaker to be on the safe side of tripping, to be compliant my breaker and outlet should match.  At least that was the way I interpreted the advice I was getting. 

ArcticDeth

So it appears you are in favor of a 10 gauge romex? Hard to tell

Erik_squires

Why are you recommending a link to a self grounded outlet? Shouldn't it be in isolated ground, which I believe involves connecting the ground all the way back to the panel. Self grounded it's just Connect to ground to the box which may not be a good thing.

unless you have dedicated 10ga from incoming to your stereo wall, so basic 16ga in your house ran in hundreds and hundreds of feet through conduit, romex, whatever, a single outlet fed by 16 ga will make instruments float around the room, so it sounds like a choir of heavenly angels in perfect harmony?

nah

Oh, and a square plate one for those who want the latest look:

https://amzn.to/3ijPm92

PS - Here is a 20 A version that IS TR AND Hospital Grade:

https://amzn.to/3OHXVH9

@immatthewj - In the US, all 120V/15A duplex outlets are safe and listed for 20 A breakers. :)

It’s an oddity of the NEC that, because you often have 3-4 outlets on 1 circuit they allow for 20A circuits assuming you’ll connect multiple medium draw (i.e. < 15A) devices there. Do a little digging on the web for more explanations.

However, if you have a single device which requires the 20A, T shaped plug, this is the wrong outlet.

As a side note, for this reason some manufacturers use exactly the same metal behind the face plate for their 15A and 20A outlets , including the T shaped hot. You can’t see it without disassembling the unit though. See if you can find some outlet comparisons on Youtube where they take them apart.

@erik_squires  , the pictured outlet is a 15A outlet?  Which would require a 15A breaker?

Get Furtech outlet for a BIG sound improvement ASAP.

IMO a high cost outlet does nothing for better sound, it is the placebo effect. Use a hospital grade 20 amp rated outlet about $10. The power conditioner does have a slight but noticeable effect on noisy lines. Some power conditioners work, others not so much. I used one in NYC, but not needed where I live now. You will have to research power conditioners to find a good unit.

Screw Pangea.  Here’s a really nice Maestro outlet that has faced many challengers.  For $89 IMHO it’s a no brainer…

https://www.cruzefirstaudio.com/maestro/the-maestro-outlet

I like to follow the NEC and that gets violated a lot by audiophiles. 😂 I'm going to recommend you a solution that not only has a death grip, but costs < $50 and meets all the NEC and UL requirements you can think of.

Outlets in homes must be tamper resistant, and that usually means a Commercial/Residential grade outlet OR if you are lucky, Hospital Grade / Tamper Resistant. I’ve yet to come across any of the so-called audio outlets which meet this requirement. Here is an affordable one that does:

Also, I’ve found it’s not just the outlet, but the plug. I recently substituted a hospital grade plug (perfectly acceptable for homes) and my goddess, the grip the combination of outlet and plug have now. I used this one because I needed a 90 degree plug to keep the cabling flat to the wall, but similar units would work too:

https://amzn.to/3VovxMc

Hubbell 5362 works well for me. Great grip and solid construction 

Yes, you definitely want a good wall outlet. There are various options available. Hopefully, a dedicated circuit going to that outlet.

I have a Saturn 103C conditioner, that was an amazing upgrade in itself. I have all Wire Work silver electra 7 power cables. The icing on the cake was a dedicated 20 amp circuit with a Cardas Audio 4181US wall outlet. Best money I ever spent. You will hear the difference.

The small upgrades are additive. With the tiny cost involved a high end outlet is a no brained. 

Look into Furutech GTX-D. These are top of the Furutech line and feature pure copper base with either gold or rhodium (regular or NCF).

Power is key. Don’t plug your system into a garbage outlet.

$100+- for a good outlet when you have already spent a good bit on power seems trivial. How about a dedicated line?

You need a good supply to your power source.  I don't like the word "conditioner" but hopefully yours is not one that does more harm than good.

anything except the 99c bulk outlets that get loose in a year will be ok.  If one marked "audiophile" makes you happy, then that is inexpensive.

Jerry