Please tutor me on some integrated amp basics.
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Just read the "Is Hegel made in China? thread". Apparently they are, so that eliminates that integrated amp choice no matter what Alon Wolf recommends. I'll take a closer look at some other brands like Luxman, Macintosh or others. Shkong, I will definitely check into the integrated Lyngdorf, Micromegan, and Devialet, models as you suggest. Thanks for the recommendations. I was reading about room correction too last night, and it sounded pretty interesting. I am not really wanting used equipment or concerned with resale value. Eventually I plan on being entombed with these same components like an Egyptian pharaoh. Builder, thanks for the clarification on wattage. Kosst_amojan, Holy smokes, thank you much for your extensive in depth explanation of amp classes. You outdid yourself. I'll have to re-read your explanation a few times to understand amp classes more fully. Thank goodness there's no class C. I'll find that Nelson Pass article too. Thanks again for the education. It's very much appreciated. Mike. |
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New or used, my only point is that the Class A Luxman amps aren't nearly the low-powered pieces that the official specs indicate. I can't compare them to other brands, I don't have the broad experience with lots of other gear that so many others have, but the L-590AX isn't a 30w amp, not by a long stretch. |
Yeah, Luxman class A within your budget is $5.5k, 40 watt/ch/4ohm. If it is a very conservative figure - it might be enough for moderate level listening, I don’t know. Could be interesting to compare it to Luxman A/B, $4.5k. My wild guess - depends on what you are listening and how loud, there might be no clear winner. inna, take a look at the link I posted earlier. The Luxman L-590AXII actually is putting out over 150 wpc into 4 ohms. Used, a very nice L-590AX probably will be about $4000. (this is the version before the MkII came out) The newest version, the L-590AXII, used, maybe $6500. I’m not sure why Luxman insists on only claiming the Class A output, and nothing beyond that, I think they’re doing themselves a disservice. Once again, these are not low-powered amps. L. |
I believe that you had better get all in one system like Lyngdorf, Micromegan, Devialet which include nice DAC , integrated and even room correction. Then you can save lot of money for cable and system will look more simple. If you do not mind used ones, there are several listings to save you money in the Audiogon. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis95j65-micromega-m-one-m100-stereo-integrated-amplifier-m-100-ma... https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis95iih-lyngdorf-audio-tdai-2170-integrated-amplifier-loaded-mint... https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis955fi-devialet-120-stereo-integrated-amplifier-14485-solid-stat... Nice thing to get used gear is that you will get less loss at resale after 2,3 years. I believe that you will be happy with any one of above three linked items. The first and second one does include room correction but the last one does not. If I choose one, I will go for Micromega which have more bass control than Lyngdorf 2017. If you insist new one, Lyngdorf 3400 appears to be good choice. |
Terry, I’m going to get back to you when I start researching cables. You’re talking a bit over my head in their description in your post, but I learn quickly. Since I’m probably going to purchase the Hegel H360, I now have to figure out what price range and brand phono stages pair nicely with with it. I think I’ll post a new thread over in Audiogon’s Miscellaneous section on that subject. Ultrasonic cleaners will have to wait, perhaps indefinitely, if their price points are too high. Thanks for getting back to me. Inna, you’re welcome to come over the house and try out any of the Luxman combinations with my Magico A3’s once they arrive. You could, as well, compare them with the Hegel H360’s I’ll likely purchase, since they are a safe bet to synergize with the Magicos. Mike |
Just curios, anyone tried Magico with British integrated, Naim or Musical Fidelity or LFD ? Yeah, Luxman class A within your budget is $5.5k, 40 watt/ch/4ohm. If it is a very conservative figure - it might be enough for moderate level listening, I don't know. Could be interesting to compare it to Luxman A/B, $4.5k. My wild guess - depends on what you are listening and how loud, there might be no clear winner. |
Mike, I really do mean cheap, as in $10 or $20 a pair. $100 max. You can just laugh and throw them away when someone demonstrates better. I run a six figure system on premium microphone cable and ETI connectors, maybe $75 a pair to solder up. Speaker wire is a special case for me, but when I was using stock speakers, I used Goertz speaker cable at about $10 / ft. Current system is vinyl and ESL. Exotic power cords are bettered by an isolation transformer, IMO. Yes, US cleaning makes a big difference. I use a German commercial unit made by ElmaSonic (80KHz) and a spinner made by Vinyl Stack. The difference between cleaning with the VPI 16.5 (now sold) and US is about equivalent to moving from $5000 speakers to $10,000 speakers. Not to mention wear on your stylus. IMO. YMMV. Good luck! |
Yysantabarbara, you're absolutely correct about the power requirement. I'm on it. Onhwy6i, yes, that's easily done. Inna, so you think I should stay with A/B's. OK, I'll look into them. I rarely except on occasion blast my music any more. Low to moderate listening levels prevail. Many years of complaints about volume modified my behavior in this regard. I'll look into listening to the Luxman's you suggest side by side with an integral phono stage compared to the Hegels with an outboard one, if at all possible. Thanks Audioman, unfortunately I can only afford to lust over the Hegel H590's. As it is the H360 at $6000 exceeds my budget by $1000 but I'm willing to go with Alon Wolf's recommendation in order to ensure my Magico's are well matched to their amp. Rbstehno, You're right, 30-60 watts won't get it for sure with the Magico's. Thanks for sharing your DAC experience. I'll be trying inna's suggested higher powered Luxman A/B models. 2psyop. appreciate your explanations on ohms and power requirements, including what speaker sensitivity entails. Researching on the internet can be confusing. For instance I read the the Magico A3 was a 4 ohm speaker and the next article described it as an 8 ohm type. This is confusing to someone who has just enough knowledge to be dangerous. Builder3, thanks for the clarification on specs on the Luxman L-590AX. Assetmgrsc, I should get subscriptions to Stereophile and Absolute Sound. I have a card for a discounted Stereo Review subcription laying around here somewhere. I used to subscribe to Stereo Review, Hi-Fidelity and Audio years back and always enjoyed them in spite of much of the technical talk going over my head. Those subscriptions were in the pre-internet era. Now you can seek out explanations of the technical terms on line, like I'm doing here right now. I only threw out piles of those three old mags last year. It would be fun to start new piles. Glad you mentioned it. Thanks for your other advice too. Ieales, I was thinking, like you, that replacing my current separates with an integrated amp would eliminate some unnecessary and unnecessarily expensive cabling. Possibly having to add an external phono stage will return me to square one however. Nothing good ever comes easy. Your'e Great Grandma's saying about the Irish is a scream. Being an O'Neill I should know, and am still laughing. Good one. Your explanation about impedance fried a couple of my internal circuit breakers. You are obviously well versed in these subjects. I am barely self taught. Good advice on building a system. That's why I'm willing to dole out the extra cash on Alon Wolf's say so, since since my Magico A3's are his speakers and he should know what matches them well. I don't presume to. Thank you for the good word on my Marantz 8005 CD player. I did do a fair amount of research on that one before purchase. I'll check your link on power supply Z linearity too, although it's likely to cause further brain circuitry overload and damage, which I can ill afford. Take it easy now. Maybe I'll watch the Texas Chainsaw Massacre on Netflix later. . Terry9. I've a lot to learn about cabling. My old system is wired with zip (lamp) cord as most of us did in days of yore. It galls me what they can charge for a wire. I really have to stop whining. Do you like your Ultrasonic? I've done a little reading on record cleaners such as the VPI models and others. A record cleaner is in the queue for acquisition after a phono stage and cables. Fortunately, I still have my old Zerostat anti-static gun to use along with a record cleaning machine, I'll be breaking it out again after thirty years of disuse, sitting in a drawer. I've even considering getting my old Burwen TNE 7000 Transient Noise (pop & click) Eliminator up and running again. No stopping me now. After buying $10,000 speakers, now you're recommending I go cheap? You're inspiring me to throw bricks in your direction like Krazy Kat used to do. Take care now Terry. Mike |
It's all about bang for the buck, as assetmgr said. I suggest that you include a record cleaner in your budget. Perhaps the best bang for buck. I went to ultrasonic. Least bang for buck, IMO, is cables. I went to the trouble of building theoretically optimal interconnect cables (virtually zero capacitance, virtually zero dielectric absorption, gold plated fine silver) inside a Faraday cage cabinet (for noise rejection), and found them no better than star quad microphone cable (Canare, Mogami) with decent termination (ETI, Klee). When you open up a high priced component, you'll see why - they use internal wiring which is no better than microphone cable in terms of noise rejection and dielectric absorption, and very little better in terms of capacitance, three key physical properties. I suggest that you buy cheap, real cheap, and upgrade only when some one can demonstrate a better sound in your system. Let the hate mail begin. |
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Ignore all specific recommendations. They aren't worth the bits to transmit them, little more than fan boy ravings. NEVER forget you are building a system. You could assemble the 'best' of everything and still have the sonic equivalent of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Well designed integrateds offer the advantage of internal connections without all the sonic garbage introduced by cables and connectors. 99% do not understand the power relationship. All other things being equal, which they NEVER are, 400w only plays 6db louder than 100w. 400 sh.tty watts are far worse than 40 great ones. Damping factor is irrelevant. Impedance [Z] is largely misunderstood and misreported. Mathematically Z is the product of LCR https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_impedance As used by speaker manufacturers, it has little grounding in reality. Ideally it should be quoted as a range, Min Z @ Hz, Max Z @ Hz. What most manufacturers report is meaningless. They may approximate the average, something close to the minimum but almost never the frequency. To be useful, you would also need to know an amplifier's capability to supply current at the specified Hz and Z and every other combination within the frequency band. Most power specs are on a resistor. Some are on a simulated speaker load. NONE are on an actual speaker playing wide range program material. Ravings about Class are audio prejudice. As my dear old Great Gran was wont to say "There's good and bad where ever you go. And Bad and Worse in Ireland." Class D maybe exactly what you need to breathe life into the A3s without taking out a mortgage. Bonne chance... P.S. - the 8005 is a well designed, excellent sounding unit. Marantz paid a great deal of attention to power supply linearity and topology, something that can pay huge dividends. For anyone interested in power supply Z linearity and how it affects the music, there is a very interesting thread on diyAudio https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/143539-look-lm317-lm337-regulators.html |
Skyscraper; you are asking for a lot of explanation in your question and I'm sure that you will get a lot too. However it likely will be overwhelming, so I suggest that you give yourself a subscription to both: THE ABSOLUTE SOUND and stereophlle magazines. They are both excellent with respect to introducing you to a wide range of high quality audio equipment, in various price ranges. Also, as a subscriber you can go on line and review many back issues. It can really be an education for you and you ought to enjoy the process. To partially answer you original question, however an integrated amp combines a basic amp with a preamp. Some include a phone preamp, as well; some include a DAC. Your best bang for the buck is to stick with those that have all three. Although I recognize that DAC technology is evolving current DACs in the PARASOUND HINT or the NUPRIME IDA 16, or the new HEGELs are all better than the one you are using and you will probably never want a newer one. Oh, one parting thought: don't be afraid of class D amps. They have come a long way from those of years past. HEGEL uses them, NAD, NUPRIME, and Rogue do as well. Enjoy the journey. |
Contrary to Luxman’s published specs, the L-590AX puts out in excess of 90wpc into 8ohms, not 30. It’s not purely Class A, they seem to have fibbed a bit. Presumably, it’s Class A for the first 30W. It’s far from "low powered". The phono stage is also more than a mere afterthought. http://www.navratilaudio.cz/novinky/Luxman_L590AXII_HFW.pdf |
Most people here are talking about getting an amplifier that your speakers will DEMAND. When you invest a lot of money on speakers, you want to get the best performance out of them that's possible. Therefore if you have speakers like the Magico, that are really hungry for power, you will need an amplifier that is up to the task. I would take the advice given above and start learning about the classes of amplifiers, as that makes a difference in how much power and current you will need. Speakers that are very low ohms (2) need a great deal of power. Speakers that are (4) ohm need a little less, but still more power than (6) ohm speakers. With a (4) ohm speaker you will need more power than an (8) ohm speaker. Also the sensitivity of your speakers is something should factor into how much power you need and how loud you will be able to play your speakers. Sensitivity measurements of 88 dB are about average. Anything below 84
dB is considered rather poor sensitivity. The sensitivity of 92 dB or
higher is very good and should be sought after.(Mostly because many amplifiers can drive higher sensitivity speakers).To get the best performance from your Magico speakers you may have to seek out a very good amp, that can produce a lot of current and a lot of power. Anyone here, correct me if I am wrong.... |
The Luxman has only 30/60 watts. Unless you have very efficient speakers, I wouldn’t get a low powered amp. I would pick the Hegel over a lot of the integrated amps mentioned here, I did buy 1. The only reason I’m selling it was that I purchased a pair of speakers that need more power. Hegel makes a very good product. The internal dac inside the Hegel is better than what you have in a CD player, but the Hegel standalone dac or other external dacs would sound better. I didn’t use the internal dac in the Hegel |
Yeah, you will need some power and current for your speakers, and personally I prefer this situation for any speakers. Simplest approach is to stay away from class D amps, just forget about them. Class A integrated will probably not give you enough power, so you might forget about it too. Luxman class A/B integrated is easy to try - just get it from Music Direct and return it if it doesn't work for you. Burn-in time should be a few hundred hours. There are two models, $4500 and $6500, they include phono stage that should be good enough for your cartridge to begin with, you can add separate phono stage later. $6k is not really much these days for a new integrated but there are a few choices. How loud do you like your music ? |
Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. Kosst_amojan, I still don’t understand what amplifier "classes" are referring to. Pardon me for being a beginner at this, but I am trying to learn so I can understand why one class might be preferable to another. Djones51, thanks for you explanation. I’m guessing all the old peamps/ integrated amps must have had phono stages built in. All of us back then only used turntables as sources, unless you happened to have a reel to reel tape deck too. I take it from your reply there are integrated amps out there with integral phono stages. I’ve been out of this for so long I just didn’t know. Onhwy61, I hadn’t thought about being able to use my Phase 4000 as a phono stage. Thanks for that idea, and how to hook it up to the Hegel. If I can’t find an equivalent to the Hegel with an integral phono stage that’s exactly what I’ll do until I can afford one. Here’s a follow-up question, borne out of ignorance. Will using my Phase Linear 4000, which cost considerably less than 2K, as a phono stage markedly degrade my system and how, until I can get one in a higher price and quality range? Jarcher, honestly I can’t get hung up on amplifier classes since I don’t know what they mean. I’d love to get an explanation. Thanks for clarifying that the Hegel’s DAC is much better than the Marantz SA8005’s. That’s something I really needed to find out. I can continue to use the Marantz’s DAC to listen to movies through the stereo system I suppose, so it won’t be a complete waste, and bypass it otherwise. Thanks for pointing out that integral phono stages are typically not up to the quality of separates especially at the $700+ price point. Guess I’ll have to bite the bullet and get one. Thank you so much for your very helpful post. You answered some questions I’ve been trying to figure out the answers to. Georgehifi, yysantabara, jonto, 2psyop, twoleftears,and respected_ent, Ill check into your integrated amp recommends and links provided. Could someone please explain what the amplifier classes mean, like Class A, D A/B etc. All the reviews mention them and I’m clueless as to what the are talking, or arguing about, with people who are invested in one type or another. I’d still like to know what impedance means too. The reviewers are always mentioning 4 or 8 ohm impedances for higher or lower efficiency speakers. Thanks, this is becoming clearer. Mike |
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/modwright-instruments-kwi-200-integrated-amplifier/ http://www.tonepublications.com/review/musical-fidelity-m6-500i-integrated-amplifier-2/ The Musical Fidelity is not offered anymore, But the Nu Vista series is very nice. All three would drive Magico speakers wonderfully. https://www.stereophile.com/content/musical-fidelity-nu-vista-800-integrated-amplifier |
I would not get too hung up about the operational class of an amplifier : just that it has the necessary power for your speakers and the sound quality you want. I personally feel the Hegel H360 would be an excellent choice : it's has lots of power, great bass control, and an excellent built in DAC (with it's own dedicated power supply & more). The A3's are power hungry. It will absolutely smoke any integrated amp made by Parasound. Luxman's are nice as well : but you would need one of the higher power versions - not the lower power class A models. The Marantz SA8005 is a good CD player - but the DAC inside the Hegel is much better. If you get one : use the digital outputs of the Marantz to the Hegel instead. RE using your turntable. Yes, there are integrated amps with the necessary phono preamp in them, but frankly in my experience most of them are somewhat medicore. This is one of the reasons Hegel doesnt include on in his integrated amps. They feel that other companies make much better external ones. I agree. There are good external phono preamps starting at $200 - and by the time you get to $700 - 900 - much better than any integrated amp internal one I've come across. Part of the problem is noise : you're talking very low level signals that are sensitive to noise. Better to take that off board. Monoblock amps : don't worry about them. Outside of your budget if you want good ones. Hope that helps! I think you're on the right path w/ a Hegel H360 : it's a very good complement to the A3 - both as an integrated amp and as a source. |
Get the integrated amp recommended by your loudspeaker's designer and continue to use your Phase Linear preamp as your phono stage. I believe you would have to connect the Phase Linear to the Hegel's single-end analog input and run a digital output from the Marantz to one of the Hegel's digital inputs. This would keep you within your $6k budget if you purchased the Hegel new, at list price. You can then save up for a better phono stage if you so decide. Used Hegels can be had for under $4k and there are any number of good quality phono preamps for around $2k. There's a reason why Wolf recommends the Hegel. |
@skyscraper This is a not an answer to your question but some info I gathered with the Magico A3. A long story short, after some time demoing the A3 and then doing more research on amplification I have decided to get the Magico A3 powered by the Mark Levinson 585 integrated. This is an excellent fatigue free combo. The 585 also has a built-in DAC that sounded rather nice to my ears. There are is a 585 and 585.5 available on A’Gon. I am buying mine from the dealer since he introduced me to this integrated. If he had not and I knew about the synergy with the A3 I would get one of the units on A’Gon. The A3 require some power so I choose the ML 585 over the Luxman 509x integrated (without built-in DAC). The A3 runs at 4 Ohms and the ML 585 can output 390 watts at 4 Ohms, The Luxman is around 220 at 4 Ohms. BTW - That Luxman 509x may also be something to consider. A used unit available on A’Gon. It has built in phono for your record player. The 585.5 has phono but is more expensive. I do not need phono. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis95d54-luxman-l-509x-integrated-solid-state https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9572e-mark-levinson-585-5-new-model-585-5-not-585-price-lowered... https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9603g-mark-levinson-no-585-solid-state (no phono) |
You say you just plugged your TT into your old Phase 4000 and it worked then that old amp had a phono stage so if you want the same ease of use with your new one it would need a phono stage. The stats on the A3 show a min 50w and max 300w with 88db sensitivity at 4ohms. You say you want simplicity just something to drive the speakers with ease have a phono input and cd input and are not particluarly concerned about a dac and aren't looking for specific amp recommendations. Taking that I would look for an integrated amp with a phono stage, at least 200w into 4ohms or higher they will all have line level inputs for cd and one with a dac for future use. As mentioned above integrateds with dual mono design would be a good thing as well. There are a lot of choices out there a lot will have more functionality than you want but that could come in handy someday. Good luck. |
George mentioned a really good amp already, Parasound Hint, John Curl design. Another choice is the Modwright KWI, which is a beast, has tremendous design and is beautiful IMHO. A third choice, I don’t know if it is still being made, but I would not hesitate buying used is the Musical Fidelity M6 500i. A dual mono integrated that I have heard and has the power for demanding speakers. Mono amps are preferrable but one needs the space and that choice is uber expensive. Plus the WAF (wife acceptance factor) is not very good. |
skyscraper OPWell if that’s the case and not Halo Hint 6 intergrated, then have a listen to the new John Curl designed Halo JC 5 poweramp, also has everything you need for those current hungry Magico’s, and you know it’s going to be great value coming from Parasound. http://www.parasound.com/jc5.php Cheers George |
Thanks inna for explaining what monoblocks are. $5000 to $6000 max will really be my upper limit, unfortunately ruling out the Gryphon Diablos. And yes I'm only looking to purchase new equipment. I'm not really looking for integrated amp recommendations at this point, only to have a better understanding of what's involved with these amps when I read their reviews. It should get clear eventually if I read enough. I really don't want a lot of unnecessary technology I'll never use. A simple integrated amp in my price range, that I could plug my turntable and CD player directly into, and that would mesh well with my Magico A3's would be perfect. Mike |
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Gryphon Diablo 300 would probably be spectacular with your speakers but it is $16.5k plus $2.3k for the optional phono stage, plus $4.5k for the optional DAC. I understand, you will be looking to buy new or maybe demo, not used. Gryphon’s phono stages are great, both built-in and separate components. DACs too. There is also German T+A, not familiar with them, and many other mostly European brands, especially Swiss and Italian. Monoblocks are power amps only, one for each channel. Other things being equal, monoblocks are always better than stereo power amp, that’s one box for both channels. Anyway, to play vinyl you need a phono stage, line stage preamplifier and power amplifier. All separate components or all in one box or in-between. I doubt there is currently overall better transistor integrated amp than Diablo 300, just different. Few can compete, very few. |
Very nice speakers btw. From what been said they are a similar load to the amp as the V3, and this is what’s said about them. " There is also a combination of 4 ohms and a –50° capacitive phase angle at 4kHz. Overall, the V3 is a demanding load that should be partnered with amplifiers that have no problem delivering high currents." Judging by this then for an integrated amp that has no problem delivering high current, I would suggest, Gryphon Diablo 300 or the smaller 120, or for great value the new John Curl designed Halo Hint 6 said to be based on the Halo JC1 monoblocks http://www.parasound.com/hint6.php Older http://www.parasound.com/hint.php Cheers George |
