Thanks George. I looked up reviews of those those amps.
Mike |
Thanks inna for explaining what monoblocks are. $5000 to $6000 max will really be my upper limit, unfortunately ruling out the Gryphon Diablos. And yes I'm only looking to purchase new equipment.
I'm not really looking for integrated amp recommendations at this point, only to have a better understanding of what's involved with these amps when I read their reviews. It should get clear eventually if I read enough.
I really don't want a lot of unnecessary technology I'll never use. A simple integrated amp in my price range, that I could plug my turntable and CD player directly into, and that would mesh well with my Magico A3's would be perfect.
Mike
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Thank you all for your thoughtful replies.
Kosst_amojan, I still don’t understand what amplifier "classes" are referring to. Pardon me for being a beginner at this, but I am trying to learn so I can understand why one class might be preferable to another.
Djones51, thanks for you explanation. I’m guessing all the old peamps/ integrated amps must have had phono stages built in. All of us back then only used turntables as sources, unless you happened to have a reel to reel tape deck too. I take it from your reply there are integrated amps out there with integral phono stages. I’ve been out of this for so long I just didn’t know.
Onhwy61, I hadn’t thought about being able to use my Phase 4000 as a phono stage. Thanks for that idea, and how to hook it up to the Hegel. If I can’t find an equivalent to the Hegel with an integral phono stage that’s exactly what I’ll do until I can afford one.
Here’s a follow-up question, borne out of ignorance. Will using my Phase Linear 4000, which cost considerably less than 2K, as a phono stage markedly degrade my system and how, until I can get one in a higher price and quality range?
Jarcher, honestly I can’t get hung up on amplifier classes since I don’t know what they mean. I’d love to get an explanation. Thanks for clarifying that the Hegel’s DAC is much better than the Marantz SA8005’s. That’s something I really needed to find out. I can continue to use the Marantz’s DAC to listen to movies through the stereo system I suppose, so it won’t be a complete waste, and bypass it otherwise.
Thanks for pointing out that integral phono stages are typically not up to the quality of separates especially at the $700+ price point. Guess I’ll have to bite the bullet and get one. Thank you so much for your very helpful post. You answered some questions I’ve been trying to figure out the answers to.
Georgehifi, yysantabara, jonto, 2psyop, twoleftears,and respected_ent, Ill check into your integrated amp recommends and links provided.
Could someone please explain what the amplifier classes mean, like Class A, D A/B etc. All the reviews mention them and I’m clueless as to what the are talking, or arguing about, with people who are invested in one type or another.
I’d still like to know what impedance means too. The reviewers are always mentioning 4 or 8 ohm impedances for higher or lower efficiency speakers.
Thanks, this is becoming clearer.
Mike
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Yysantabarbara, you're absolutely correct about the power requirement. I'm on it.
Onhwy6i, yes, that's easily done.
Inna, so you think I should stay with A/B's. OK, I'll look into them. I rarely except on occasion blast my music any more. Low to moderate listening levels prevail. Many years of complaints about volume modified my behavior in this regard. I'll look into listening to the Luxman's you suggest side by side with an integral phono stage compared to the Hegels with an outboard one, if at all possible. Thanks
Audioman, unfortunately I can only afford to lust over the Hegel H590's. As it is the H360 at $6000 exceeds my budget by $1000 but I'm willing to go with Alon Wolf's recommendation in order to ensure my Magico's are well matched to their amp.
Rbstehno, You're right, 30-60 watts won't get it for sure with the Magico's. Thanks for sharing your DAC experience. I'll be trying inna's suggested higher powered Luxman A/B models.
2psyop. appreciate your explanations on ohms and power requirements, including what speaker sensitivity entails. Researching on the internet can be confusing. For instance I read the the Magico A3 was a 4 ohm speaker and the next article described it as an 8 ohm type. This is confusing to someone who has just enough knowledge to be dangerous.
Builder3, thanks for the clarification on specs on the Luxman L-590AX.
Assetmgrsc, I should get subscriptions to Stereophile and Absolute Sound. I have a card for a discounted Stereo Review subcription laying around here somewhere. I used to subscribe to Stereo Review, Hi-Fidelity and Audio years back and always enjoyed them in spite of much of the technical talk going over my head. Those subscriptions were in the pre-internet era. Now you can seek out explanations of the technical terms on line, like I'm doing here right now.
I only threw out piles of those three old mags last year. It would be fun to start new piles. Glad you mentioned it. Thanks for your other advice too.
Ieales, I was thinking, like you, that replacing my current separates with an integrated amp would eliminate some unnecessary and unnecessarily expensive cabling. Possibly having to add an external phono stage will return me to square one however. Nothing good ever comes easy.
Your'e Great Grandma's saying about the Irish is a scream. Being an O'Neill I should know, and am still laughing. Good one.
Your explanation about impedance fried a couple of my internal circuit breakers. You are obviously well versed in these subjects. I am barely self taught.
Good advice on building a system. That's why I'm willing to dole out the extra cash on Alon Wolf's say so, since since my Magico A3's are his speakers and he should know what matches them well. I don't presume to.
Thank you for the good word on my Marantz 8005 CD player. I did do a fair amount of research on that one before purchase. I'll check your link on power supply Z linearity too, although it's likely to cause further brain circuitry overload and damage, which I can ill afford. Take it easy now. Maybe I'll watch the Texas Chainsaw Massacre on Netflix later.
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Terry9. I've a lot to learn about cabling. My old system is wired with zip (lamp) cord as most of us did in days of yore. It galls me what they can charge for a wire. I really have to stop whining.
Do you like your Ultrasonic? I've done a little reading on record cleaners such as the VPI models and others. A record cleaner is in the queue for acquisition after a phono stage and cables. Fortunately, I still have my old Zerostat anti-static gun to use along with a record cleaning machine, I'll be breaking it out again after thirty years of disuse, sitting in a drawer. I've even considering getting my old Burwen TNE 7000 Transient Noise (pop & click) Eliminator up and running again. No stopping me now.
After buying $10,000 speakers, now you're recommending I go cheap? You're inspiring me to throw bricks in your direction like Krazy Kat used to do. Take care now Terry.
Mike
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Kosst_amojan, thanks again for the additional information on Class B's and C's, and the links you provided. Those squawk boxes used at fast food drive up windows must employ Class B technology, They generate almost pure distortion on a good day.
Inna I don't buy Taiwanese products either. They've bought up woodworking machine manufacturers like Delta, and others, over there and run them into the ground. No trouble with Japanese products, but I've been burned on a South Korean made Samsung Smart T.V. with known defects that appear only after the warranty period expired.
Mike |
Terry, I’m going to get back to you when I start researching cables. You’re talking a bit over my head in their description in your post, but I learn quickly.
Since I’m probably going to purchase the Hegel H360, I now have to figure out what price range and brand phono stages pair nicely with with it. I think I’ll post a new thread over in Audiogon’s Miscellaneous section on that subject. Ultrasonic cleaners will have to wait, perhaps indefinitely, if their price points are too high. Thanks for getting back to me.
Inna, you’re welcome to come over the house and try out any of the Luxman combinations with my Magico A3’s once they arrive. You could, as well, compare them with the Hegel H360’s I’ll likely purchase, since they are a safe bet to synergize with the Magicos.
Mike
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Just read the "Is Hegel made in China? thread". Apparently they are, so that eliminates that integrated amp choice no matter what Alon Wolf recommends. I'll take a closer look at some other brands like Luxman, Macintosh or others.
Shkong, I will definitely check into the integrated
Lyngdorf, Micromegan, and Devialet, models as you suggest. Thanks for the recommendations. I was reading about room correction too last night, and it sounded pretty interesting.
I am not really wanting used equipment or concerned with resale value. Eventually I plan on being entombed with these same components like an Egyptian pharaoh.
Builder, thanks for the clarification on wattage.
Kosst_amojan, Holy smokes, thank you much for your extensive in depth explanation of amp classes. You outdid yourself. I'll have to re-read your explanation a few times to understand amp classes more fully. Thank goodness there's no class C. I'll find that Nelson Pass article too. Thanks again for the education. It's very much appreciated.
Mike.
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Yysantabara, I checked out the new Mark Levinson’s amp link you provided. they sounded perfect until I got to the price, a couple thousand or so out of my already inflated price range or $5000 to $6000. I might have jumped up another $1000 for the integral mm/mc phono stage, but can’t responsibly go to $8500 for that. Close but no cookie. Thank you much though.
Mkke
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Builder3, glad you had good luck with your used amp. I’d likely be the one with bad luck taking the same chance. I think my Dad’s many years of selling used cars taught me to stick with new, so you’re sure what you are getting. His used cars came with 90 Day Guarantees, or whenever you pulled out of the lot’s parking lot, whichever came first. Unlike his customers, he thought that was real funny. Even new equipment you can’t be sure about. I was shocked to find the Norwegian labelled Hegel I was about to spend $6000 on was manufactured in China, the home of poor quality everything.
Yysantabarbara, thanks for the link. I’ll check them out in short order.
Headphonedreams, same with your links. Thanks
Ieales, i will pay attention to thermal management and electrolytic capacitor quality. I’’ll have to learn how to do the latter though. I’d just emailed Hegel about the former a couple of days ago and got an incomplete response.
Auxinput, just when this was getting a little less confusing...
kosst_amojan. Thanks again.
Mike |
2psyop, I'm really concerned with the quality control there and would feel like a fool if I went to that well again and ended up with more Chinese junk, especially at such high price points. I am very often disturbed by Chinese products breaking down at home, everything from electronics to plumbing parts.
On the social conscience end of it, you know Chinese products are so cheap because their employees are paid so little. They don't have labor unions over there, and thousands and thousands of companies worldwide have abandoned their own work forces to take advantage of that. So I try to avoid Chinese stuff out of self interest, as well as to have a clear conscience.
I'm old enough to have known some of the old union workers who paid a great personal price to fight for decent wages here. Now you only see vacant abandoned factories, and innumerable dying small towns and cities all across the nation where they worked and lived. Their sacrifices went for nothing as their companies closed up and did an end-run to China. It's no joke, and a worldwide tragedy. I honestly wouldn't want to touch products from any of the companies you named above if there is any possible alternative.
Mike |
Jack, at Command Performance we talked about the Hegel H360 a little bit, but the focus was mostly on the speakers being demoed.
Inna, I was reading up on the Accuphase amps tonight, but they are priced too far over my $6000 upper limit.
Tomic60i. Thanks for the two book recommendations. I’ll have to find my notes from the demos to recall what equipment they used. I do remember the amps were around $10,000 at both places, which is higher priced than what I’ll be getting.
You know I’ve never had a single problem with the Phase Linear 400’s since I got them forty or so years ago. The Phase 4000 preamp I’ve had some issues with losing the right channel. I used to bring it in right to their factory near home then in Seattle. I have been thinking, like you, that it might be pushing my luck and a potential disaster to hook the Magicos up to the old Phase 400. That’s primarily why I’m looking into getting a new integrated amp so soon, to take them both out of the picture before the back ordered Magico’s arrive in February.
I’ll look up the rest of the manufacturers you listed tomorrow that I haven’t reviewed already. I also contacted one of the VP’s at Magico to refer someone to me who could make another recommendation on amps, since I didn’t care for Alon Wolf’s Chinese amp recommendation.That should go over poorly. I should have asked for him directly now that I’m thinking about it. Oh well.
Yysantabarbara, the new Mark Levinson, if I’m recalling the right model, was a bit too pricey at $8500 for me. Thanks for the thought though.
Mike
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Twoleftears, you're correct about the wattages after looking all these up.
DJones, I researched the
Anthem STR Integrated and added it to my short list. The ARC room correction function makes it interesting, Couple of others on my list also have that capability. I'm not sure how valuable an asset room correction might be relative to integrated amps without it. Don't know how well the Anthem STR's would synergize with the Magico A3's either. They certainly have the wattage and the best price point at $4500. When I get done with my short list maybe I'll post it and others can recommend which amp they'd prefer off it, and why, for use with the Magicos.
Terry9 and Schubert, there are no absolutes in manufacturing anywhere. I did look into the Quad's because I've always admired their sound, but they were out of my price range plus I'm so leery of Chinese manufacturing practices. Schubert, no doubt you're correct, but the pay over there is generally abysmal by our standards, which is why the manufacturers are there or Mexico in the first place.
Jafant, thanks again, stay tuned for coming attractions.
Tomic60- Tim the Toolman always said, "More power!"
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Twoleftears, thanks for recommending the Coda CSiB. I hadn’t heard of them before, but read it’s designers worked at Legacy and Pass Labs before, which is likely a good pedigree. Tough to find reviews on them though. They sound interesting and made in the USA to boot. They’re quite powerful.at 800 watts into 4 ohms, like a modern day Ampzilla. At $6000 they do make the top end of my price range. I’ll keep looking for reviews. They list Audio Doctor as a dealer, but Coda isn’t listed on at least their New Jersey site as a product they carry. The NJ Audio Doctor writes in here frequently so I thought maybe they’d know something about them relative to other integrateds on my short list. Thanks. Bjesian, appreciate the suggestion on getting a Boulder refurbished, but I’m going to stick with new to avoid hassles. Terry9, no doubt true. Jones4music, be nice. If people here on Audiogon can’t help with high end audio suggestions, I’m not sure where else to turn for assistance. This stuff is expensive for the average person, and without an audio engineering backgroud, I can’t ill afford to make completely uneducated, if not just plain dumb, choices. With all of your suggestions and some research, I’ve got my list of possible amps narrowed down to ten potential choices. A couple of Chinese made ones were left in due to exemplary reviews, albeit with a little trepidation. I’ve winnowed the list down on the basis of price being between $4500 and $6500, a stretch beyond my self imposed $6000 limit, and having the recommended power, 50-300 watts into 4 ohms, to feed the power hungry Magico A3’s. My interest is in playing mostly records and CD’s, no streaming media. Being able to plug my Smart TV into it would be okay too for listening to movies. My system, as aforementioned, will be Magico A’3 speakers, a VPI Classic 2 SE turntable, and a Marantz SA 8005 CD/SACD player with integral DAC. I’ll likely have to bump the Krell off the list as it’s going to be $7000 in the US, as opposed to the $6500 price I saw listed in Europe when I calculated the exchange rate. For some reason the McIntosh MA 6700 is listed on the McIntosh site as not available in North America, so that may have to go too. I’m not sure how much value should be placed on the room correction feature included with the Anthem (ARC) and Lyngdorf (Room Perfect) entries either, which make choosing a bit more difficult. I know it’s a lot to ask, but If any of you can help focus the below list on which amps you perceive should be the front runners on a short list, I’d be appreciative. Hegel H360 Mod Wright KWI200 Krell K-300i Anthem Electronics STR D/A Simaudio Moon Neo 340i D3PX Classe’ Sigma 2220ics STR D/A Coda CSiB Lyngdorf TDA1-3400 Micromega M15 McIntosh MA 6700
Thanks, Mike |
Inna, I read yesterday Luxman, pulled out of manufacturing in China. Anyway, their products and Gryphons are well out of my price range since I'm only buying new . However with Xmas coming up you might keep me in mind for a Gryphon Diablo 120 with their optional phono stage, though.
Mike
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Jafant., any idea how the Anthem STR might compare with any of the others on my list? The list now includes the LUXMAN L-507uXII, thanks to Inna.
Mike |
Inna, thanks again. The Luxman
L-507uXII has enough wattage for the Magicos at 220v at 4 ohms, and comes in at budget at $6445. It has both an integral mm and mc phono stage, which I like too. It doesn't have an integral DAC at first glance, but I don't need one, and didn't really need to be paying for that feature. I think you've recommended a contender, and possible front runner. I don't know how I missed this model. I thought I'd read through all the Luxman integrated amp offerings, but obviously missed this one.
I couldn't be more pleased, and will start reading any reviews on it I can find this evening.
Mike |
Builder, I’m sticking with new in spite of this temptation you’re placing in front of me. I did read the review you provided a link to, and the L-509X sounded ever so nice.
Mike |
I’ve got to learn about that too, Inna. Maybe after I figure out cabling. The power around here is unreliable, frequent outages and whatnot to say the least. You don’t think those power conditioners they advertise and you see with turntables sometimes would do the job by themselves? Maybe they’re the same as regenerators, I’m unfamiliar with that term, but will google it tomorrow. I’ve got to find a decent surge protector too, for all this new stereo equipment. Had a lightning strike one year about twenty feet from the house that fried our microwave and well pump, not to mention blew the telephone junction box cover clear across the yard, while splitting the locust tree the lightening hit right in half top to bottom like splitting a rail. Don’t want to repeat that experience with my new audio equipment treasures. Hopefully tomorrow some folks will chime in and help pare down my longish integrated amplifier list for potential purchase to a more reasonable size. Here's the updated list. I could make a purchase this week or next. and/or do another road trip for demos. Which do you all think are the top few candidates I should seek out to audition or purchase. Any inpiut would be greatly appreciated.
Hegel H360 Mod Wright KWI200 Luxman Krell K-300i Anthem Electronics STR D/A Simaudio Moon Neo 340i D3PX Classe’ Sigma 2220ics STR D/A Coda CSiB Lyngdorf TDA1-3400 Micromega M1 Mike. |
Clhs04, Thanks for the recommend. I'll research the
Plinius Hautonga integrated, which is yet another model and company I've never run across before.
Snoopy72, If I had an additional $3000 to spend on a new Luxman L-509X those four additional 10,000 μF capacitor blocks would be mine, even though I have no idea what their function might be. Sadly that's out of my max $6500 budget.
Again, here's a corrected version of my not so short list. I left out the Luxman model number above. Anybody who could identify which of these integrated amps they might consider to be the top few candidates to power my Magico A3's, and that I should try to audition, would be appreciated. I'll mostly be playing vinyl records and some CD's, no streaming.
I'm guessing maybe the Hegel or Luxman might be the top contenders. What do you think?
Hegel H360 Mod Wright KWI200 Luxman
L-507uXII
Krell K-300i Anthem Electronics STR D/A Simaudio Moon Neo 340i D3PX Classe’ Sigma 2220ics STR D/A Coda CSiB Lyngdorf TDA1-3400 Micromega M1
Thanks, Mike
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For various reasons I decided the top contenders were the Hegel H360 and the Luxman L-507uXII. Both had superlative reviews.
The Hegel had Magico’s Alon Wolf’s recommendation for use with the Magico A3. It was rated at 400 watts into 4 ohms, a hundred watts over the Magico’s recommended top wattage of 300. That was substantially more powerful than the 210 watts into 4 ohms Luxman L-507uXII’s rating. The Hegel was Chinese in manufacture, Luxman had a preferable Japanese point of origin, and an exceptionally well made and solid build by all reports. The Luxmans wiring and internal components configuration looked well organized and orderly compared to the Hegels. As an indicator of the care taken in each products manufacturing, that helped tip the balance over to the Luxman in my eye.
The Hegel had a DAC I did not need, and lacked a integral phono-stage that I did, and would have had to purchase as a separate in addition.. The Hegel was more geared toward accommodating various electronic, downloaded music sources, the Luxman more the traditional analog turntable. The Luxman had a well reviewed mm/mc phono stage built in and no DAC. I hope lacking the DAC enabled Luxman to put more resources into the rest of the amp.
I ordered the Luxman for a hundred off list just a few minutes ago. Thanks for everyone’s help in making this decision and learning about integrated amps. Thanks Inna for bringing the Luxman to my attention. I did think about starting another thread asking about what others were using to power their Magicos. But I decided to skip it because I like Luxman’s longetivity and reputation, and their L-507uXII ’s design too much to pass it by. The Luxman looked built like a tank in addition to it’s superlative listener reviews. I like that. I don’t want to be dealing with breakdowns in the near or far future. My Japanese Toyotas certainly have that quality. Must be something cultural in Japan.
Next up, studying cables and power supply products. But that’s another thread.
Mike
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Twoleftears, I checked out the Furman online. And thanks for your input on the Simaudi and Plinius.
Terry9 and Cleeds, from what you’re saying, it looks like I’ll need to put some serious study into this subject of electrical supply. I really only wanted to plug this equipment in without any other major expenses.The Furman Twoleftears mentioned alone goes for $2000, I hope you all are enjoying that your’e killing me here.
On the serious side I will assiduously study your posts above and figure out what’s involved with power conditioning. I’ve done a fair amount of house and hydronic system wiring but never heard of the equipment you mentioned for power conditioning before. So I’ve learned something new today. Thank you.
Inna, could I ask you one more question since I know absolutely nothing about modern cabling.
Roughly how much do you think I’d need to budget for cabling for a simple system like mine with one VPI Classic 2 turntable, one Marantz SA 8005 CD player, one Luxman L-507uXII integrated amp and two Magico A3 speakers. I’ve roughly $23,000 into the system components, if that helps with an estimate. Thanks,
To give you a rough idea of the lengths of cables needed, the speakers will be roughly eight to ten feet apart. The components will be on shelves built into the wall located behind the speakers, equally spaced between them. They’d be about as far from the floor, as you’d see on a typical rack.. And since you asked, I will have to get an RCA cable to got from the VPI turntable to the Luxman’s phono stage inputs. I checked the VPI’s unpacked box and there was none in there.
Anybody else, please feel free to offer a guesstimate. I’m only trying to figure how to budget for this purchase.
2psyop, thank you.
Tomstruck, lots of choices out there it appears. Appreciate you mentioning some others.
Mike |
Thanks inna. You’ll be emailing me at the poorhouse next. I wonder what they are putting in these wires that cost so much?
Mike |
Inna, sounds like the VPI tonearm cable would be a natural choice. Thanks.
You asked what figure I had in mind. I really haven’t any figure, because I’ve never had any cables and wires other than the cheapest stuff most of us used in the seventies, before Monster Cables (if I remembering correctly) and the like came out. I think most looked at them as an expensive hoax at the time. We all used zip cord then to connect to our speakers. I still have zip cord hard wired in place behind the wall for my DQ 10’s.
The long and short of it is I’ve no idea what brands type, and price point of cabling would be appropriate to match my system. I’m trying to get an idea of what I should be looking to spend, if that makes sense I kind of remember one poster saying a guideline was to spend a certain percentage of your systems cost on wiring, which is why I mentioned the overall cost of my system. But I can’t remember the percentage, or where I read the post.
There must be some kind of ballpark figures people shoot for, for systems of any given quality. A year or two ago, I looked at some cables at our local audio store Audiotronics in Roanoke. I asked if they were anything but a hoax. The dealer A-B’ed them for me with cheaper cables and there was a marked difference in sound quality, which woke me up out of the 1970s. But confusingly there was a wide range of prices on different grades of the same companies cables. I don’t remember the brand. Prices ranged right up into the stratosphere as is the case with most audiophile components, so I’m lost at determining how much I should be putting into wiring.
What do folks think?
Builder3, I’ll look at the brands you recommended soon as I figure out what I should be budgeting and of course will lift with my legs. Thanks.
Jones4music, Thanks and appreciate the Superman comics reference.
Mike
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Inna, thanks for the explanation. Sound a little like the drug companies.
Ieales, I hope the Luxman works out too. I really wish I had access to products I could demo in my home. But, I'm not anywhere near a big city now, so I have to rely on reviews and research as much as possible to make choices. I made the exception when looking at speakers, traveling up to Washington DC. It was a lot easier when I lived outside NYC.
I'd like to read your write up on power conditioning but couldn't get the link to work.
Bfa2, the Beyond Frontiers Audio integrated amp sounds exceptional, but way beyond my $6500 budget unfortunately. I looked at the Vivid review you provided a link to . You must have a marvelous system. Thanks.
Builder3, sounds like good advice. Do you think it would be safe to hook the system up with the zip cord and the inexpensive RCA connectors I have now, before demoing various high quality cables to make that investment? There might be able some higher quality cables available locally I could try out. Thanks.
Mike |
Twoleftears, thanks for some excellent advice/ I'll isolate one of the three 20 amp circuits I wired into the Entertainment (Listening ) Room for the stereo system only. I won't buy any cables until after the speakers arrive and I'll check with Uptown Audio and Audiotronics locally to see what they offer and could provide as loaners. Dealers form DC might be willing to parcel post wires around as opposed to items like amps.
I'll research isolation transformers too and can probably still haul them around. Maybe not in a few years though. Gravity appears to increasing if you as me.
Ieales. first link is working perfectly now, thanks. Second looks interesting too. I'll read it soon as I'm done with these replies. If we could roll back some of these laws of physics you mentioned maybe the isolation transformers might get a little lighter to deal with.
Builder3, thanks for the link. That wire is almost being given away compared to some of the rest I've run across. Might be a good temporary fix.
Inna, the VPI cable does sound like a logical choice that wouldn't break the bank. Stupider things have happened, but I don't think VPI would sell a cable that would make their own equipment sound poorly. I think there is some kind of upgraded wiring on the tonearm already with the VPI Classic 2's SE model. Speaker cords and power cable first it is, then. The CD player isn't in the same league as the other equipment anyway.
Amortized over time, none of this is that expensive if you look it it that way. And once an item is paid off it doesn't seem to matter anyway. It's just on to the next thing. I would like to have all this wrapped by the Spring though, so I can get on to my new wood working shop build, incidentally where my old stereo equipment will be utilized. I've got to get that done before I'm too old to lift heavy, trusses plywood, and shingles up to the roof too.
Again appreciate all your helpful suggestions. They're music to my ears.
Mike
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Inna, Certainly interesting, but not easy to figure out for sure. I’ll try to find some described as "linear, balanced, clear, harmonically correct" to audition at home once the components are all here.
Twoch. I heard them demoed with ss and they sounded great, not to mention the Hegel H360’s Alon Wolf recommended were ss. I thought maybe tubes might not be as synergistic with a speaker designed to be more detailed and analytic, prompting his recommend. I have no idea anyway, just guessing.
I did think about that aspect about the Magico’s needing a bit more warmth, and the Luxmans were described that way in one review. more in the midrange if I recall. I thought I was making a wild enough decision straying from his Hegel 360 recommendation, much less going over to a tube amp. A Magico VP I spoke with also recommended another solid state integrated as an alternative to the Hegel. I didn’t want Magico to be thinking of me as a warm, cuddly sissy either for considering a nice warm tube amp, so I toed the line with ss.
Yysantabara, that’s a good question, please keep it here. I’d be interested in the answer. I would have loved to have that Mark Levinson 585, only the fear of potential poverty quenched my desire for it. Same with the Luxman 509x.
Jafant, thanks for replying.
Mike |
Inna, fortunately I have until February, when the Magico’s hopefully arrive, to study and make choices on the wiring.Rest assured I will not call you names due to your suggestions, even when they haul me into bankruptcy court. At your suggestion, I will see what information I might find out about the Purist Audio Design Neptune fluid cables. What do you like about those cables? Is there something special about their design you are aware of, or is it simply the results from listening to your system with them? If you never see them used, that is a good sign, like my having to wait another five months to get my Magicos.
Kapa11, I looked into the Pass Labs integrated amps, before purchasing my Luxman integrated amp last week, and was quite impressed. If I could have afforded them, I very well might have purchased them. I still do not wish to purchase new for the aforementioned reasons, even if I could get a better product. I feel the risk is not worth the reward and don’t want the headaches of repairs to worry about when I live so far out in the country, away from but one high end service person. I’ve been there, and done used that in other realms. I won’t buy a used car for the same reasons, unless you happen to have a used low mileage ’55 Mercedes you’re thinking of parting with.
My sister still has and uses a complete set of Carver equipment from years ago she still uses. You remember those big trapezoidal shaped speakers he designed after moving on from Phase Linear. Her system still works perfectly. Thank you for your suggestions.
Mike
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Inna, thank you for the contacts. Last night I looked up the price for a pair of the length Audio Design Neptune fluid cables
I'd need, about three yards long. They were running well over three thousand dollars a pair, which is unfortunately well out of my price range. You're fortunate to own some. I'll be done paying off my VPI turntable in a couple weeks and will go ahead and buy the VPI cables you suggested to get started.
I'll have to do a lot more research on cables next, which appears to be a fairly complex subject to sort out.
Mike |
I found some Poseidons for around $1300 for 3 meters. The Neptunes would have sunk my financial ship. Maybe I could stay afloat with a Poseidon adventure. I’ll look into them.
Mike |
I hear you Inna, I’ve spent so much lately getting the Magico’s, VPI Classic 2 and now the Luxman L-507uXII I have to stop being extravagant for a time. I’ve some other expenditures to consider what with building a workshop and a few other things. Instead I’ll trying studying cables for a while and figure out what I want to do. I’ll find a way to make due, until I feel the time is right to make another investment in the system. I'll keep the Poseidons and Neptunes in mind.
Mike |
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Another road trip is now over. Picked up my Luxman L-507uXII integrated amp today. Let's hope it synergizes well with my new Magico A3's when they arrive in February. It's built like a brick, and weighs a ton. It should last forever from the looks of it.
Mike |
Ieales, have you mentioned what cables you're using? I'm curious as to what you have and why you chose, or like them. Like anybody else, I'd prefer to find less expensive ones that do correlate with good performance. In the end I'll pay what I have to, to not have cables that perform inadequately with the Magico A3's, that I purchased expressly for their detailed sound. I don't expect cables and the like to improve my new system, I do expect them to not mess it up, or waste my hard earned life savings.
I'm still having a hard time with seeing how costly a few feet of wire can be, research costs or not. I'll sort it out eventually. I've only had a couple days to research so far and am basking in my own ignorance, which is a sure fire recipe to make poor, if not costly decisions in a market that smells rife with hucksterism. I had 25+ years working in Corrections before retiring. It's a familiar odor.
Mike
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Kosst_amojan, My Magico A3's were mentioned to need 300 hours.
Those Pass XA100.8's weigh in at a heavyweight 99 lbs. making my 55 lb. Luxmans seem anorexic in comparison. They didn't feel that way carrying them up a flight of stairs though. I would have liked a Pass Amp if they hadn't been out of my price range, and so heavy.
Mike |
500 hours, that's like listening to over a thousand record sides. I suppose I could start working through my entire record collection. Since I only get in a couple of hours listening tops each night this might take a while. I suppose I could leave some background music playing each day if I'm inside.
Mike |
Kosst_amojani, you’re truly fortunate and skilled to be able to build them on your own. Unfortunately my skills are in other areas. I’ll look you up if I’m ever considering monoblocks.
Jetter, well I did stay married to my late wife for almost 30 years and kept and used my original stereo equipment for forty years. But my advice on either subject would be suspect at best.
I’ve never had "audiophile" quality cables. If I decide it’s worthwhile to purchase a relatively expensive set, I’d like to do it once and once only. I’m not into switching components, or wives for that matter, a costly endeavour in either event. I might go the interim route you suggest if I decide to defer investing in pricier cables to a later date in favor of other things outside of the audiophile realm. Thanks for your sensible advice.
Ieales, I’m suspicious of the cable burn in concept too, and have heard like you said, connectors should be moved around or cleaned every so often due to corrosion. I’ve been doing that forever, but only after the effects of that corrosion become audible. Shame on me. Congratulations on being an engineering dinosaur. I suspected you might be an engineer from the import of your posts.
I looked up the Belden 1311A cable, the in wall speaker CL3 type. It certainly seemed economical. What did you do to make it into a "in a self-designed bi-wire", if you don’t mind my asking? For a couple of short ten foot lengths I might be able to replicate what you’ve done I’ve done a fair amount of wiring in my day, mostly home and hydronics stuff like building a relay station, so maybe I could pull it off. I’ll check out your link. Maybe you explained it there.
Sounds like you and your friend listened to some good music on fine equipment. I auditioned my Magico A3’s in part with some 45rpm Stevie Ray Vaughn the dealer had on hand. Joe Pass, Charles Mingus, Barney Kessel, and Clifford Brown are right up my alley too. I brought some Mingus to that same demo too.
Maybe I’ll try burning in my new equipment playing it for a couple days straight like you said. Hopefully the Luxman 507ux integrated amp won’t catch fire. I read it runs a bit hot. Take care,
Mike |
Jetter, Honestly I’m not sure what the wisest path is on cabling and am open to any and all ideas before plunking down some cash. Maybe there’s no avoiding the expensive ones, but it won’t be for lack of trying on my part. I’ve recently spent a small fortune on all new components and really want to get on to something else. Only these damnable cables are holding me back from that now. I’ll just have to keep researching until I’m convinced that I’ve no choice but to buy these ridiculously expensive wires. How’s that for sniveling and complaining?
Inna, don’t remind me. I know I’m doomed, but am still trying to find some way to squirm out of it.
Mike |
Kost_amojan, I didn’t think my house was hard to build, plumb and wire, but I had some idea about what I was doing. I would like to learn about electronics but that will probably never happen. I’m impressed it would be easy for you to make your own cables. I always admire people who have the skills to do things. That cryogenic freezing of cables sounds pretty hokey to me too, although I know zero about it. I’ll think about your last post tomorrow when I’m not so tired. There’s a lot to learn about cables as you say. I’ve only been reading up on them two or three days now.
If I can find some relatively expensive cables that are universally recognized as being of high quality, and would likely synergize with my equipment, maybe that’s a direction to go. I’ll probably get the VPI phono cable which isn’t too bad at $300 and is supposed to match the wiring in my VPI Classic 2. So I only need pricey speaker cables at this point. I'd really like to find something I wouldn't have to replace later on. I can deal with power cords, power conditioners, and the like at a later date. Appreciate your advice.
Jackd. I’ll add the Audio Sensibility name to my list of cables to look into. Thanks
Shkong. I’ve added Audio Note and Analysis Audio cables to my list too. It’s amazing how many cable manufacturers there are out there. Thanks for your followup with some more details on the Audio notes.
Jones4music, "Just quantum tunnel and run 3,000,000 volts and move on with it?" Can I borrow your quantum blaster when your done with it? In order to reduce external noise pollution the next door neighbors yappy new dog could use a taste of that.
Inna, I may consider buying used cables from a reliable source. I don’ t think cables could get abused as easily as components that I wouldn’t want to buy used might. Unless maybe you ran them over when vacuuming. Used, I could get closer to some top of the line stuff, and be done with it. Maybe I’ll luck into some used Nordost Valhallas or some such at a cut rate reasonable cost. I’d prefer to not go much over a thousand for speaker cables if I have to.
I’ll have to figure out good, reliable sources for used speaker cables. I was looking at The Cable Company site tonight. There must be other sources too. I can afford good cables, just don’t want spend money on them versus other things. But it looks more and more like I have to suck it up. I don’t want to marginalize the rest of the system I’ve put so much into just like you say. So it goes. I’ll get over it in a few days and after another thousand or so is gone with the wind.
Mike
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Thanks anyway kosst. With your knowledge and expertise you could probably become the 101st audiophile cable manufacturer if you wanted to be. Take it easy.
Djones, thanks for the info on Magico using MIT cables at their shows. I’ve actually heard of that manufacturer. Their cables were recommended by the dealer who sold me my Luxman, and he didn’t even carry that brand. Their most expensive ones are a bit out of my range though without my selling my house.
Mike |
Kosst_amojan, It’s a new day, I’m awake again and have reread your post. That’s sensible advice you’re offering. I do need to research more on this fairly complex subject, and be patient doing so. I am getting into a bit of a rush to get this project, buying a new stereo system, over with. At the very least I can make do until February when my back ordered Magico’s are set to arrive, and obtain at a better understanding of what’s involved with audiophile quality cables. That’s a way more sensible idea than taking a shot in the dark. Thanks for your advice.
It’s taken a few days to adjust to the idea cables are an important part of a stereo system and the non-expense of using zip cords is a thing of the past. Back in the late seventies, when I last purchased components, you never even considered wiring or cabling in the overall cost or budget for a system, and honestly I didn’t when budgeting for my recently purchased new equipment. That’s why I’m been trying to find a way out of this somewhat unexpected added expense.
Are there any $1000+ speaker cables you would personally recommend, that you’re sure are well built and legitimate, and not too esoteric. I’ve received well over twenty recommendations so far without even asking, and read reviews of even more possibilities. I need to start narrowing down the field to a shorter list of legitimate contenders to research.
I’ll maybe make due with something in the Blue Jeans range in the meantime, as some have suggested. It would be nice if there were some cables in the $1000+ range that there was a consensus about, that you couldn’t go wrong with. Maybe with some further research I can turn some up. I’ll have to find what cables Magico uses for demoing their A3’s at shows too. (I’m thinking out loud). Thanks again
Geoff, I’d appreciate if you didn’t head my thread off in a related, but different direction, while I’m trying to figure this out with your and other’s valued advice. Are there any $1000+ cables you’d consider to be a sure bet and should be on my short list? Preferably ones by not too esoteric a manufacturer with a a decent track record? I read your thoughts on cryogenic treatment of cables, and had read some others who passed this off as gimmickry. Not to focus on cryogenics, I’m curious what aspects of cable design you’d recommend I should avoid as gimmicks and what might be legitimate design factors to look for. I really have no way of knowing what’s legitimate design or manufacturing practices, and what’s not, and opinions on the internet are all over the place. I am trying to learn though, best I can by asking questions. Thanks for your advice,
Mike |
Inna,I will be contacting again the Magico rep who does their demos at shows to find out what cables they use there. I'd only use Bluejeans as an interim measure before investing in expensive cables and interconnects.
I did read your post on record cleaning on my other thread. I did reply to it and the previous poster's, but must have neglected to hit the green "Post Your Response" button. I just went ahead and retyped my reply there.
Builder, thanks for the recommend on the Silversonics. I'll look them up. I do have to figure what a good baseline standard should be.
Mike |
Geek,, I quite likely will be finding out how good they are, until I find out more about,or purchase, some of the big (i.e, expensive) boys.. Hopefully they’ll be a pleasant surprise.
Mike |
Tom, I wish I wasn’t five hours away in traffic from the closest Magico dealer. I do think the local audio stores have a limited supply of cables that I may be able to cajole them into lending for demo purposes. That is after my Magico’s arrive in February. Good advice to have fun with this. I do enjoy doing the research and communicating with you all, not to mention coming home with new toys.
I’ve never heard of the Aesthetix Mimas. I’ll look them up. Good luck with that.
Mike |
Ieales, I’ll read the articles you provided links too. Thanks. Appreciate the info on the Nordost’s. I had just finished reading a review from Stereophile, I think, where the author said their Valhalla’s were the greatest cables he’d ever reviewed. Apparently maybe not. Hopefully the reading you recommended will help educate me a bit better before i waste a wad of cash.
Geoffkait, thank you for recommending those companies. I’ll be sure to check them out and appreciate your advice.
I must also ask you to please not be rude or argumentative on my thread. That last comment to ieales came across as exactly that, whether intentionally or not, and gets the thread off track. This thread is an attempt for me to both learn about and enjoy my hobby, so I’d appreciate it being free of acrimony, even if you are in disagreement with someone’s thoughts. Would that be okay? I welcome your opinions about cable technologies as you know way more about it than I, but give me a break here.
Glupson, I think the "yet" has dawned. Especially since I did purchase and pick up my new integrated amp Wednesday. Do you think I should move this over to the cables forum somehow now? It probably belongs there at this point.
Mike
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Glupson, I have read a few of the threads on the cable forum and asked a couple questions on one of them that is quite vitriolic.
Usually you can get an idea of what the better brands are on most audio products through reviews and their names being mentioned, or praised with some frequency on various forums, Audiogon being a better one for that. I’ve yet to find a pattern with cable recommendations yet.
There seems to be a wide range of opinions and an even greater diversity of manufacturers. With speakers, and with amps it was relatively easy to figure out the front runners and whittle the list down to size prior to demoing. Maybe that’s in part due to having prior experience with components. No such luck so far with cables. Maybe I just haven’t read enough yet or had any practical experience with various grades of cable to venture a guess, like I’ve had with speakers, amps, turntables and to a lesser degree CD players.
I used to subscribe to audio mags like Hii-Fidelity, Stereo Review and Audio and I don’t recall any reviews on cables other than the Monster Cables when they came out. As an aside, I always thought a pairing of Monster Cables and Ampzilla would have been poetic. So this cable arena is all new to me, has a certain gladiatorial element and prices startling for someone who’s never considered anything but zip cord for wiring components. Have you mentioned what cables you use? Just curious. I’ve written down so many brands I’ve lost track of who's recommended what.
Tomstruck, you’re lucky you have Audio Connection so close. You should mention to them they should set up shop in Roanoke. I’ll look at your link on the Aesthetics. I couldn’t find too much earlier except for one short positive review.
Mike
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Twoleftears. I've added Wireworld and Audio Sensibility to my long list.
Ieales, thanks for pointing out a few touted, but questionable cable construction attributes. Helps sort out the wheat from the chaff.
Mike. |
Duckworp, my apologies, but somehow when re-reading this thread this morning, I noticed, and think I missed replying to your long and thoughtful post.
I will be setting up my new system first with some more basic cable as you suggest. Your outline of how to proceed seems quite sensible to me. I will be concentrating on speaker cable first as you also suggest. The only exception will be acquiring the relatively inexpensive VPI manufactured turntable interconnect as my turntable is a VPI Classic similarly wired. I’ll look into the Townsend brand you recommend as well.
I appreciate you thinking and saying the Luxman will match well with the Magico’s. I surely hope so. The Luxman rep that told me they use Magico A3’s to demo their amps at shows encouraged me to think they may be well matched too.
Austinbob, sorry, I think I missed replying to your post too, which followed directly after Duckworp’s. I wish I had that room correction program you have with your Lyngdorf, especially if it works as well as the reviewers say. I seriously considered the Lyngdorf and a couple others for that alone.
Mike
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Gentleman, nice to read the back and forth on cables since my last post from three of my favorite people on this site.
I’ve been in touch with both Magico and Luxman about cables. Magico says they’re using Audioquest cables at their current show in Canada to demos their A3’s. Perhaps they’re cryogenically treated and well suited to cold climates. Magic said the also use Nordost, MIT and Transparent cables at other shows and in their factory, Luxmans rep said he liked Audioquest and Nordost. The dealer who sold me the Luxman integrated said he recommended MIT’s among cables he didn’t carry at his store for Luxman’s.
Interestingly. Magico said they are currently demoing their A3’s with a Luxman 509x amp, only one step up from my 597ux Mark II. Wish I could have afforded it. Luxman independently informed me they are demoing their 509x with the Magico’s. Either they’ve formed an unholy cabal, or I’ve gotten lucky with my research and choices.
A couple of you on site have mentioned the Nordost’s are too bright, so I’ll rule them out, The Audioquest’s are available locally in Roanoke so maybe I can wrangle a demo. I also read the MIT’s are good only at their highest priced models, and I’ve read only positive things about the Transparent cables. The dealer who sold me the Luxman 507 also recommended the MIT’s among brands he didn’t carry at his store. So I can add at least three possible brands to my short list, straight from the horse’s mouth so to speak. Audioquest’s are the only ones I’ve ever heard demoed, actually when I first heard about expensive cables and questioned the local dealer if they were any better than zip cord. They were.
Next up is to look up prices, new and used, for them along with a couple others on my short list that you’ve recommended.
Glupson, you’re right about the two camps from what I’ve read so far. Some of those in either camp get so excited about wires you’d think they’re ready for a fist fight. Get a life instead is my recommendation. You mentioned you have Shunyata Venoms. Where do they come up with these names is what I’d like to know? I looked up the Audioquests to get a price and they listed twenty varieties of speaker wire alone, most with ridiculous names too. How many variations of wire can there be that one company can come up with?
I will keep in mind to look at each wires flexablity as they will have to bend a few times on the way to the speaker Good advice. I added your Zavfinos to the ever expanding long list. They might get lost in the shuffle though. I posted them at #106 so I wouldn’t be forgetting them.
You’re right, I don’t want to spend the rest of my life messing with this. I’m pretty content with a "semi-logical approach" as you say. I’m enjoying learning about cables now, but soon as I get some, that’s the end of it until the next go round in 2058. I expect I’ll have to call that one in. You also have to consider too, you can spend so much money on this stuff you couldn’t afford records or CD’s to listen to afterwards.
Appreciate your encouragement, sensible approach to cabling and making me laugh. Semi-logical, huh? You didn’t even intend that one.
Inna please don’t tell me there’s an even more complicated approach to choosing cables. I am going to look into that esoteric brand you mentioned, but couldn’t recall the name. It’s posted way higher on my list than Glupson’s Zavfinos in any event. He didn’t even like them well enough to purchase them, while you did invest in the model that you recommended.
Power cords, transformers and line conditioners are up next for research.
Ieales, If I find out that expensive cables purchased don’t sound significantly better than Bluejeans or Beldens I will be quite perturbed to say the least. Some of these wires are so expensive its ungodly. I mean I didn’t work and save my whole life to end up with ten feet of wire as the reward.
Anybody with any opinions (except Glupson) on the Audioquest, Transparent, MIT or other lines just mentioned, please chime in with your thoughts or experience with them. I’ll be carefully considering what you have to say before making a purchase. Thanks so much,
Mike
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