Look at politicians and big business, it will be a much more interesting view. If good cables' prices are a little 'exaggerated' so be it. |
That's Luxman class A, I was talking about class A/B models. |
Gryphon Diablo 300 would probably be spectacular with your speakers but it is $16.5k plus $2.3k for the optional phono stage, plus $4.5k for the optional DAC.
I understand, you will be looking to buy new or maybe demo, not used.
Gryphon’s phono stages are great, both built-in and separate components. DACs too.
There is also German T+A, not familiar with them, and many other mostly European brands, especially Swiss and Italian.
Monoblocks are power amps only, one for each channel. Other things being equal, monoblocks are always better than stereo power amp, that’s one box for both channels.
Anyway, to play vinyl you need a phono stage, line stage preamplifier and power amplifier. All separate components or all in one box or in-between.
I doubt there is currently overall better transistor integrated amp than Diablo 300, just different. Few can compete, very few. |
Yeah, you will need some power and current for your speakers, and personally I prefer this situation for any speakers.
Simplest approach is to stay away from class D amps, just forget about them. Class A integrated will probably not give you enough power, so you might forget about it too.
Luxman class A/B integrated is easy to try - just get it from Music Direct and return it if it doesn't work for you. Burn-in time should be a few hundred hours. There are two models, $4500 and $6500, they include phono stage that should be good enough for your cartridge to begin with, you can add separate phono stage later.
$6k is not really much these days for a new integrated but there are a few choices.
How loud do you like your music ?
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builder3, yes, I saw it, but the man will be buying new not used, and the less powerful Luxman class A may not be enough. I did suggest comparing it to class A/B Luxman. That's what I would do myself, but it's up to him, we just express our opinions. |
Just don't ask where parts for the others are made. It's a little different but still..
I generally have nothing against Japanese, South Korean and Taiwanese stuff.
I read that Hegel thread too, just didn't want to mention it until/unless asked. |
Just curios, anyone tried Magico with British integrated, Naim or Musical Fidelity or LFD ?
Yeah, Luxman class A within your budget is $5.5k, 40 watt/ch/4ohm. If it is a very conservative figure - it might be enough for moderate level listening, I don't know. Could be interesting to compare it to Luxman A/B, $4.5k. My wild guess - depends on what you are listening and how loud, there might be no clear winner. |
You might also consider German T+A . I have no idea of how they sound, but the rumor is - very good. They have a range of models. Don't know if they are all made in Germany, though.
I don't want Chinese either. As for South Korean, I didn't mean Samsung, I meant Allnic - tube equipment of very high quality. Still, my Samsung phone has been working flawlessly for years.
I guess, Accuphase is out of your reach. |
Luxman is not fully Japanese ? I didn't know that. Just some models or all of them ?
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Chinese can steal better than anyone else, even Russians and Americans, their intelligence is so good. That's how they learned and developed their at times impressive capabilities. Some of them also have a strong work ethics. Yes, they can make good stuff. |
Mike,
Since you decided to consider 'Chinese' Hegel, I would also consider 'Chinese' Luxman. Power figures do not tell the whole story even within power figures. Older Gryphon Class A 100 watt/ch/8ohm amp sounds much more powerful than older 600 watts/ch Krell, not to mention incomparably better. Besides, you need a good phono stage. And also, almost everything breaks from time to time, manufacturer's support is important. |
Mike, least expensive Luxman is $4500, next in line is $6500, both Class AB. |
Yeah, and 505uXII is 150 watt/4 ohm. I think, Music Direct has 60 days return policy, but you would have to ask to make sure. Enough time to burn it in and get acquainted with the sound. |
Mike, another thought, though I don't know exactly how to figure it out. Power supply, it's got to be very robust and resisting interference. The wall current is bad in most areas. I use PS Audio regenerator and plug everything in it, including 120 watt/ch integrated. It helps a lot but doesn't completely eliminate the problem. In my case, plugging the amp in the regenerator does not limit the dynamics, with more powerful amps there might be a problem. PS Audio does have newer and better regenerators, I have an older one. My amp's power supply is not so good, I guess, in this respect. Power conditioners/regenerators is a big subject, but in any case - the better the power supply the better. |
Mike, your speakers are coming in February, there is plenty of time - you don't have to buy anything right now.
I am not familiar with your speakers so can't really advise. However, I would keep on the list at least the following brands: Hegel because it is recommended by the Magico designer, and Luxman, Lyngdorf and ModWright because they are quite popular around here.
You might want to start another thread entitled something like - What do you use to drive your Magico speakers ?
Another brand to consider, I know that some use these amps with Magico and other high end speakers, is Italian made Audia Flight . |
Mike, I think you got it right. Luxman is more traditional, better quality and higher class. That will translate into the sound and your overall enjoyment of your system.
As for cables and power equipment, that is not going to be easy. This can make a big difference. Do you need a tonearm cable or VPIs arm comes with the harness including RCA connectors that go straight into phono stage ? My Nottingham is like that. Tonearm cable is the most important cable in the entire system. If possible, I would go with one brand, except power conditioner/regenerator of course. |
Mike, first of all you will need a tonearm cable that will go from the turntable into the Luxman, the one with a ground wire in addition to RCA connectors.
As for how much to spend, there will be different opinions. I am a cable man but that doesn't mean that I spend more than I think is needed.
Are you going to buy new or used cables, or it depends ? Used cables will be much less expensive, if you can find what you are looking for, but also there are some fakes of popular brands and models.
So, you will need one tonearm cable, one pair of interconnects for the cd player, two power cords - for Luxman and the cd player, and pair of speakers cables. That's five items.
What figure do you have in mind ? Your system deserves very good cabling, that's for sure.
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VPI has $349 tonearm cable, same wire as in VPI tonearm. This should be fine unless you are prepared to go much higher in cost. Music Direct has it.
As for the brands, there are so many that one can drown in it. I am mostly familiar with Purist Audio Design and Tchernov Audio cables, the latter being Russian brand. High quality, 'military grade' with audiophile sound. You can read my thread about them here. I have both Purist and Tchernov in my system.
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Also, Shunyata makes good power cables, don't know about interconnects and speaker cables. Again, expensive. |
Yeah, though some materials and labor are not inexpensive, it is mostly research and development when there is actually one, like Purist, Shunyata, Furutech and Tchernov, advertising and big profit margins. Dealers get them at half the list price or so. Speakers often have big profit margin too but electronics usually less. Really good cables are not easy to develop, signal transmission is not a simple thing.
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Mike, speaking of street not list prices I would put $1500 - $2000 speaker cables between your Luxman and Magico, $1000 - $1250 power cord on Luxman, $349 VPI tonearm cable probably to begin with. That's analog and common parts. For your Marantz player..how important is digital to you ? If not as important as analog - maybe $500-$750 for interconnects and about the same for power cord.
If you buy used that figure can be dramatically lowered, if you can find what you look for. Usedcables.com has some good cables from time to time. They are usually overpriced by Audiogon standards but they might have them. I am not sure about their return policy, though. At least they are unlikely selling any fakes because they know how to authenticate cables.
You could put something like Audio Art cables everywhere and it won't be too bad. They start at $120 for a pair of interconnects. I tried those - very good entry level cables made who knows where.
Another brand, though I never tried them just read about them, to consider is Japanese Furutech. Better models are expensive too.
You've got high end active components, passive components -cables- should also be high end. But it is hard to buy without listening and comparing, it is also more difficult to spend big on cables than on active components. I know, I did it a few times.
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Mike, I think you could start a thread asking what others use with their Magico speakers. Foregone conclusion - most use quite expensive cables, and they don't do it for nothing. There is also a matter of sound preference, equally good cables will not sound exactly the same.
I would put digital aside for the moment, interconnects and power cord for the cd player can be done last. Speaker cables and power cord for the Luxman is the priority, and I would go with the VPI tonearm cable unless I was prepared to pay a few times that.
Getting wall current right is very important indeed, but it is a somewhat separate task, though the better the wall current the less difference between power cords.
Another thought is that although initial expense is high, if you keep your equipment for decades it won't be that much per year. I spend about $100 per month on the equipment on average and it is not very little, I do have expensive cables. |
Mike, sure it would make little sense to buy cables without already having the equipment.
Best cables are often those that you cannot find used, especially for a reasonable price !
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Putting cost aside for the moment, it is interesting how to best match speaker cables. Though to both, of course, I think one should match them more to the speakers than to the amp. I would not go with either excessively warm cables or too cold, let alone zippy with articulated high frequencies ones. Cables should be linear, balanced, clear, harmonically correct. It might also depend on the kind of music you mostly listen to. Mike is going to listen to a lot of classical jazz, this requires both detailed and sophisticated sound with great imaging and soundstage. I would probably though not necessarily go with the same brand for the amp power cord. Model can be the same or different but the cord must be capable of passing a lot of amperage and be very well shielded. |
Mike, you can call me names, but I read thru some threads on Audiogon, thought about it a little, and if I were to take a wild guess taking into account everything, I would say that unless you value ultimate high frequency extension at the expense of other things, very probably the best speaker cables for your Luxman/Magico duo would be Purist Audio Design Neptune fluid cables. That would be $2000, and there is nothing I can do about it. I suspect you could get away with something for $1000 but it would not be the same, possibly not even close. The alternatives could be - Echole and Stage III Concepts brands - more expensive.
Yes, I use Neptune interconnects. I have never seen them used for sale since the time of their introduction, and many have been sold.
You could try some Wywire, Audience and Acoustic Zen copper cables but..
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Mike, I am not a technical person and can't judge the design from this point of view. You can talk to Jim Aud of Purist Audio, he replies quickly, and ask him any questions. He is a former NASA engineer specializing in underwater signal transmission and he has been making cables for over 30 years. Aqueous fluid cable was his original cable. You can also talk to Audiogon member albertporter who is now Purist dealer as well. He personally has been using these cables from the very beginning of their existence, though he always has top of the line.
As for the sound, I'll spare you all the audiophile jargon, they are exquisite sophisticated cables with incredible soundstage. They do nothing wrong and almost everything right.
I would not rush with buying expensive power cord for Luxman. First, I would get tonearm cable and speaker cables and would listen for a few weeks or month with either stock Luxman cord or, say, $200 Audio Art Classic cord. 300 hours of burn in time for Purist, less for Audio Art. Then you could decide where to go next. It would also to a degree depend on how much electrical work on your house wiring you were going to do. But if you want to get everything at the same time and everything new, that's more difficult and possibly more expensive. Getting cabling perfectly right is tough even with unlimited budget. |
Sorry, 2 meters pair are $2034, 2.5 meters pair are about $200 more. |
I think, the price is about right. Two years ago when I still had older Purist interconnects, I asked Jim of Purist what he would recommend to go significantly higher. He said - Poseidon. I eventually decided to go with Neptune, though it seemed terribly expensive for me. |
Mike, keep us informed. Many people read Audiogon threads, your situation is quite common and choosing cables can be a true nightmare.
Good luck. |
In any case, with Magico speakers I would go with copper wires only unless it is top of the line, then it could be silver or alloy as well, maybe. Your speakers are on a cooler analytical side of neutral.
If you cannot afford Neptune you might consider Poseidon model, which should be half the price and should be excellent too, but I haven't heard it. |
Mike, no, don't look at the suggested retail prices, street prices are much lower. I checked two weeks ago with one dealer. Purist Audio Neptune speaker cables with spades 2.5 meter pair are $2050, brand new, not demo not return. |
One last thought. You could, theoretically speaking, go with Purist tonearm cable too if you choose Purist speaker cables. Poseidon or Neptune, copper wire. I don't know the prices, unfortunately I cannot upgrade my tonearm cable, it's one piece, I would have to have complete arm rewiring done. But VPI tonearm cable should work very well with your table. There is almost always something better, that's an opportunity and a problem. |
Exactly. But it may be less than 500. |
Mike, yes they will. But don't forget about burn-in time, the difference before and after can be dramatic. I don't know how many hours, but you will hear when the sound stops changing. Speakers and even some electronics might not reach their full potential before 500 hours. |
I will not argue once again about the value of good cables. Pro cables will not be enough for this set up, not even close. That's all I will say. |
Well, you could try $560 DiMarzio Super M-path speaker cables with spade connectors from thecableco.com or even Mogami with banana connectors on ebay from Japan for about $130. I know DiMarzio M-path interconnects, still have them. They are..okay. DiMarzio cables are wildly used by electric guitar players. Those Super M speaker cables are said to be better than interconnects, but they are not exactly free. |
Mike, you are not doomed but you got high end components that do require high end interface. Usually, audiophiles gradually improve their systems, with some errors and sometimes surprises. Many buy used, if they can find what they look for. It might take years to get it right, especially if you can't spend much. But even if you can you have to listen and compare and develop what I call audiophile instinct. It takes time to develop. Another thought, an analogy. Take good acoustic guitar, you can put different strings on it of equal quality and the guitar will sound both the same and different. Gut strings, nylon strings, metal strings ? It depends. If you were going to listen to mostly rock music or heavy metal I would not have recommended Neptune because it would be waist of money. With that kind of music you don't need such resolution, details, soundstage, harmonic texture and very low distortion. With jazz, vocal, different acoustic music, classical it's different. And yet another consideration. Some members who participate on Audiogon forum do not listen to records or tape, they only have digital source. If they can take it, their opinion on the sound and equipment doesn't have much weight. By the way, when trying to get some information on Poseidon couple of years ago I could find virtually nothing. In the past quite a number of Audiogon old time members used Purist cables, now I don't hear much about them.
Anyway, today I went to supermarket and spend $120. I didn't buy much, it felt expensive and it was. $1300 speaker cables look cheap by comparison. |
By the way, I wrote a lengthy post about record cleaning in your speakers road trip thread. |
Ask Magico what they use for wiring in their speakers. This doesn't mean you better use the same but it is interesting. I would steer clear of Jeans, that's budget brand. Higher end MIT are hit or miss cables, no way to be sure in advance. |
Speaker cables are relatively easy to choose after you have chosen interconnects. Usually - same brand, though not necessarily the same model. Another element is knowing your speakers, strong and weak points. If you put Nordost cables on your Magico almost certainly they will sound thin and not quite natural. Nordost exaggerates upper frequencies register, they are not in my view balanced cables. Nor are they in high esteem among audiophiles.
There are so many cable brands because it's easy to make money out of it, not the last thing knowing that 99% of people are not going to compare even a few brands let alone many. I didn't mention many other brands because it would've created even more confusion and because some of those brands, their models worth considering, are too expensive. Ask your Luxman dealer about his recommendation, make your sound and music preferences known to him.
I learned about Purist from some very knowledgeable and experienced Audiogon members, none of them presently participates. A few brands were most popular - Purist Audio, Kubala Sosna, Echole, Jorma, sometimes best Kimber and Audioquest, Shunyata power cords only. Those members have $200k - $500k all analog systems and could afford almost anything. Yes, a few had top of the line MIT and Transparent cables that worked very well in their particular applications. |
There is yet another group. People who consider cables components, and they are components, and have good enough hearing.
Just because Magico shows with certain cables does not necessarily mean that they will be best for any application. Besides, it's business, and it has many aspects. |
Power around here is both unstable and very dirty, so I use PS Audio regenerator for all components, including 120 Watt/ch integrated. Dynamics is not compromised, in fact better than straight to the wall.
This integrated, Redgum RGi120, is also quite high current but not at all like big amps, of course. |
Mike, don't assume that you will always be able to return new cables for refund, you have to ask. Some dealers might only offer credit not refund. Yes, one needs some extra speaker cables length to move speakers a little. |
I suspect that both Magico and Luxman demo with quite expensive cables, Luxman makes very expensive reference interconnect and speaker cables, by the way.
I don't think Mike wants to go to a great length to choose cables, that's why I didn't suggest complicated approaches.
He also says that the power in his area is bad and unstable. This may have nothing to do with the choice of speaker cables but one should do something about it. I think, in the beginning he underestimated a little the cost and effort that are involved in achieving good sound.
Yes, very wrong cables can screw up the sound big time, regardless of how good active components are. |
Mike, that esoteric brand is Purist Audio Design, and the model I recommended was Neptune. I also said that lower model Poseidon should be excellent but that I had no experience with it.
Not only did I bought Neptune interconnects, I have no intention of replacing them in a foreseeable future since they work so well with both analog and digital.
No personal experience with Audioquest, MIT or Transparent. I do think though, from what I read, that one would have to go rather high in their line. But maybe this has changed, I don't know, on average cables are getting better, if you are lucky today you can get $3000 sound of the past for $1000 or so. Don't buy old used cables unless you know exactly what you are doing. Yes, there are old cables that are still very competitive. One of them I use, of course, as speaker cables - 20 years old Purist Audio Colossus fluid. |
Mike,
No, I meant only very old cables and not because they deteriorate except maybe a little for connectors. Cable technology advanced in the last, say, ten years, including metallurgy. Whatever else they do it is first of all the conductors themselves, the metal. Single Crystal Copper ( SCC ) is usually excellent when done right. Single Crystal Silver too.
I have not heard Neptune speaker cables, only interconnects. In my experience if interconnects are good, speaker cables of the same line will be good. Not necessarily the other way around.
I had to buy both Purist Audio Neptune and Tchernov Audio Reference MK II interconnects new because they were never available used. No-one is selling them !
Eventually I will upgrade my old Purist Colossus speaker cables to Purist Neptune, when I upgrade my speakers. |
Another question if you buy used, are you prepared to possibly lose some money if you buy, don't like them and have to sell them ? Also, both buying and selling 3 meter long used speaker cables might be difficult, most popular length is 2.0-2.5 meters, I guess. You want speaker cables as short as possible, though I think that 0.5 meters difference is non-issue unless your hearing is incredible. |
Mike, when a product is clearly superior you will hear it right away. Then it will be worth paying for if you can. |
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All this might not be necessary when comparing cables, or anything else for that matter. If the cables are fully burned in I usually need a minute at most to hear everything there is to hear. Very familiar and reasonably well-recorded material, of course. If you need a lot of time to compare - stop comparing and choose the least expensive cable.
I have six recordings, four analog and two digital, that I use. One minute each with each cable. Simple enough. |
