ieales, if you wish to argue don't do it with me, argue with the cables designers.
Please tutor me on some integrated amp basics.
I’ve recently purchased Magico A3 speakers and a VPI Classic 2 SE turntable with an Ortofon Black 2M moving magnet cartridge. I have a Marantz SA 8005 CD/SACD player to play the few (maybe a hundred or so) CD’s in my possession.
I’ve mostly vinyl albums and no streaming sources. I’m next going to upgrade my old amp/preamp purchased back in the late 70’s with a new, probably integrated, one and am starting to do some research.
Here’s where I need some tutoring. A lot has changed since the seventies with the advent of digital technology. As well as I need to learn more about amplification components in the high end of audio technology. I keep running across terms I don’t understand. I’ll give you a list and if someone would be kind enough to explain these basics I’d be obliged.
For instance I was reading about the Hegel H360 integrated amp that Magico’s Alon Wolf recommended for their A3’s. The review mentioned they were a Class A/B amp, another person commented Class A’s were better, and a third person said he didn’t care for Class D amps. What do these classes signify?
A second question is about DACs. I generally understand their purpose of the DAC, converting a digital to an analog signal. However my only digital device, the Marantz SA 8005 already has a DAC, ostensibly of good quality. The turntable ’s Ortofon cartridge would not need to play through a DAC, I presume. Would I bypass the CD’s players DAC if I purchase the higher quality Hegel H360 integrated amp?. Or could I find an equivalent integrated amp without an integral DAC?
On the other side of the equation I understand the turntable’s cartridge cannot play through the Hegel without first going through a phono stage. My old Phase Linear 4000 preamp you just plugged the turntables RCA cables into the back of the preamp and you were done. What’s that about? Do they make equivalent integrated amps to the Hegel H360 with integrated phono stages already in place, so I can just plug my turntable in as I’ve been able to do before. The amps don’t seem to be well integrated at all if you have to add a pricey phono stage to make them work, and end up having an extra DAC. That’s just me whining.
Third question is what are monoblocks, how are they used, and what are their advantages to a system? They were used at one of my speaker auditions.
I figured out the answer to what amplifier damping was myself, so I’m sparing you that one, but what does the term impedance mean? I keep coming across that.
Thank goodness I don’t have to figure out the cabling nightmare yet. Thanks for any help.
Mike
I’ve mostly vinyl albums and no streaming sources. I’m next going to upgrade my old amp/preamp purchased back in the late 70’s with a new, probably integrated, one and am starting to do some research.
Here’s where I need some tutoring. A lot has changed since the seventies with the advent of digital technology. As well as I need to learn more about amplification components in the high end of audio technology. I keep running across terms I don’t understand. I’ll give you a list and if someone would be kind enough to explain these basics I’d be obliged.
For instance I was reading about the Hegel H360 integrated amp that Magico’s Alon Wolf recommended for their A3’s. The review mentioned they were a Class A/B amp, another person commented Class A’s were better, and a third person said he didn’t care for Class D amps. What do these classes signify?
A second question is about DACs. I generally understand their purpose of the DAC, converting a digital to an analog signal. However my only digital device, the Marantz SA 8005 already has a DAC, ostensibly of good quality. The turntable ’s Ortofon cartridge would not need to play through a DAC, I presume. Would I bypass the CD’s players DAC if I purchase the higher quality Hegel H360 integrated amp?. Or could I find an equivalent integrated amp without an integral DAC?
On the other side of the equation I understand the turntable’s cartridge cannot play through the Hegel without first going through a phono stage. My old Phase Linear 4000 preamp you just plugged the turntables RCA cables into the back of the preamp and you were done. What’s that about? Do they make equivalent integrated amps to the Hegel H360 with integrated phono stages already in place, so I can just plug my turntable in as I’ve been able to do before. The amps don’t seem to be well integrated at all if you have to add a pricey phono stage to make them work, and end up having an extra DAC. That’s just me whining.
Third question is what are monoblocks, how are they used, and what are their advantages to a system? They were used at one of my speaker auditions.
I figured out the answer to what amplifier damping was myself, so I’m sparing you that one, but what does the term impedance mean? I keep coming across that.
Thank goodness I don’t have to figure out the cabling nightmare yet. Thanks for any help.
Mike
Showing 50 responses by inna
Anyway, $2k - $3k for speaker cables that will last at least 25 - 30 years is nothing compared to the cost of some MC cartridges that you have to replace every 2-3 years. Now that's robbery. But they are paying those prices, I am not and will not. On the other hand, paying $25k for a great amp that may last a lifetime is perfectly fine with me. Speaking of Purist cables, I heard rumors that Neptune is the most popular model. I can understand that. Performance level is very high even if not the highest, the cost is moderate for higher end systems, and fluid cables have certain qualities that I doubt you can find to the same degree in any other cables, including Purist's top models. |
Story that I heard, don't quite remember who told it, maybe in fact it was Albert telling it here on Audiogon. Over 30 years ago a man came to a place where members of Dallas Audiophile Society were gathering, man with a cable in his hand. At that time most of those guys used top of the like Audioquest. He said - put this cable on your equipment and you will not want to use Audioquest any more. The cable was Purist original Aqueous fluid cable and the man was the founder of Purist Audio Design. So yes this is an authentic company. Oh yeah, they stopped using Audioquest. |
Albert is nice to talk to. Yes, I bought my Neptune from him. I don't know, though, if he accepts returns for a refund, I didn't ask. He's got half a million or so system and probably heard both Magico and Luxman, but maybe only top models. His assessment of Neptune was exactly as mine, I heard his opinion after I'd bought those cables. And his system is very different from mine and not only in cost. He always uses tube equipment and top of the line Purist cables. |
Mike, check with albertporter, a member and a dealer of Purist here. He advertises all the time, just type Purist. He would give you a good price. Ask him about both Museus and Poseidon prices. You can also ask him about which one of two he would choose. It's Luminist revision, meaning the latest Purist cables. |
You might want to get this power cord, it will be a significant upgrade to Luxman stock. If it is not enough you can put it on your cd player, if it is not enough for your player I'll buy it from you for $99. I didn't try this model, I have their least expensive and top of the line models, that I currently use. The company is no more. Solid engineering, neutral enough sound, works well on both analog and digital If this length is enough for you, of course. https://www.usedcable.com/custom-power-cord-company-model-11-15-amp-iec-4ft-1-2m-power-cables.html |
All this might not be necessary when comparing cables, or anything else for that matter. If the cables are fully burned in I usually need a minute at most to hear everything there is to hear. Very familiar and reasonably well-recorded material, of course. If you need a lot of time to compare - stop comparing and choose the least expensive cable. I have six recordings, four analog and two digital, that I use. One minute each with each cable. Simple enough. |
Another question if you buy used, are you prepared to possibly lose some money if you buy, don't like them and have to sell them ? Also, both buying and selling 3 meter long used speaker cables might be difficult, most popular length is 2.0-2.5 meters, I guess. You want speaker cables as short as possible, though I think that 0.5 meters difference is non-issue unless your hearing is incredible. |
Mike, No, I meant only very old cables and not because they deteriorate except maybe a little for connectors. Cable technology advanced in the last, say, ten years, including metallurgy. Whatever else they do it is first of all the conductors themselves, the metal. Single Crystal Copper ( SCC ) is usually excellent when done right. Single Crystal Silver too. I have not heard Neptune speaker cables, only interconnects. In my experience if interconnects are good, speaker cables of the same line will be good. Not necessarily the other way around. I had to buy both Purist Audio Neptune and Tchernov Audio Reference MK II interconnects new because they were never available used. No-one is selling them ! Eventually I will upgrade my old Purist Colossus speaker cables to Purist Neptune, when I upgrade my speakers. |
Mike, that esoteric brand is Purist Audio Design, and the model I recommended was Neptune. I also said that lower model Poseidon should be excellent but that I had no experience with it. Not only did I bought Neptune interconnects, I have no intention of replacing them in a foreseeable future since they work so well with both analog and digital. No personal experience with Audioquest, MIT or Transparent. I do think though, from what I read, that one would have to go rather high in their line. But maybe this has changed, I don't know, on average cables are getting better, if you are lucky today you can get $3000 sound of the past for $1000 or so. Don't buy old used cables unless you know exactly what you are doing. Yes, there are old cables that are still very competitive. One of them I use, of course, as speaker cables - 20 years old Purist Audio Colossus fluid. |
Power around here is both unstable and very dirty, so I use PS Audio regenerator for all components, including 120 Watt/ch integrated. Dynamics is not compromised, in fact better than straight to the wall. This integrated, Redgum RGi120, is also quite high current but not at all like big amps, of course. |
I suspect that both Magico and Luxman demo with quite expensive cables, Luxman makes very expensive reference interconnect and speaker cables, by the way. I don't think Mike wants to go to a great length to choose cables, that's why I didn't suggest complicated approaches. He also says that the power in his area is bad and unstable. This may have nothing to do with the choice of speaker cables but one should do something about it. I think, in the beginning he underestimated a little the cost and effort that are involved in achieving good sound. Yes, very wrong cables can screw up the sound big time, regardless of how good active components are. |
Speaker cables are relatively easy to choose after you have chosen interconnects. Usually - same brand, though not necessarily the same model. Another element is knowing your speakers, strong and weak points. If you put Nordost cables on your Magico almost certainly they will sound thin and not quite natural. Nordost exaggerates upper frequencies register, they are not in my view balanced cables. Nor are they in high esteem among audiophiles. There are so many cable brands because it's easy to make money out of it, not the last thing knowing that 99% of people are not going to compare even a few brands let alone many. I didn't mention many other brands because it would've created even more confusion and because some of those brands, their models worth considering, are too expensive. Ask your Luxman dealer about his recommendation, make your sound and music preferences known to him. I learned about Purist from some very knowledgeable and experienced Audiogon members, none of them presently participates. A few brands were most popular - Purist Audio, Kubala Sosna, Echole, Jorma, sometimes best Kimber and Audioquest, Shunyata power cords only. Those members have $200k - $500k all analog systems and could afford almost anything. Yes, a few had top of the line MIT and Transparent cables that worked very well in their particular applications. |
Well, you could try $560 DiMarzio Super M-path speaker cables with spade connectors from thecableco.com or even Mogami with banana connectors on ebay from Japan for about $130. I know DiMarzio M-path interconnects, still have them. They are..okay. DiMarzio cables are wildly used by electric guitar players. Those Super M speaker cables are said to be better than interconnects, but they are not exactly free. |
Mike, you are not doomed but you got high end components that do require high end interface. Usually, audiophiles gradually improve their systems, with some errors and sometimes surprises. Many buy used, if they can find what they look for. It might take years to get it right, especially if you can't spend much. But even if you can you have to listen and compare and develop what I call audiophile instinct. It takes time to develop. Another thought, an analogy. Take good acoustic guitar, you can put different strings on it of equal quality and the guitar will sound both the same and different. Gut strings, nylon strings, metal strings ? It depends. If you were going to listen to mostly rock music or heavy metal I would not have recommended Neptune because it would be waist of money. With that kind of music you don't need such resolution, details, soundstage, harmonic texture and very low distortion. With jazz, vocal, different acoustic music, classical it's different. And yet another consideration. Some members who participate on Audiogon forum do not listen to records or tape, they only have digital source. If they can take it, their opinion on the sound and equipment doesn't have much weight. By the way, when trying to get some information on Poseidon couple of years ago I could find virtually nothing. In the past quite a number of Audiogon old time members used Purist cables, now I don't hear much about them. Anyway, today I went to supermarket and spend $120. I didn't buy much, it felt expensive and it was. $1300 speaker cables look cheap by comparison. |
One last thought. You could, theoretically speaking, go with Purist tonearm cable too if you choose Purist speaker cables. Poseidon or Neptune, copper wire. I don't know the prices, unfortunately I cannot upgrade my tonearm cable, it's one piece, I would have to have complete arm rewiring done. But VPI tonearm cable should work very well with your table. There is almost always something better, that's an opportunity and a problem. |
In any case, with Magico speakers I would go with copper wires only unless it is top of the line, then it could be silver or alloy as well, maybe. Your speakers are on a cooler analytical side of neutral. If you cannot afford Neptune you might consider Poseidon model, which should be half the price and should be excellent too, but I haven't heard it. |
Mike, I am not a technical person and can't judge the design from this point of view. You can talk to Jim Aud of Purist Audio, he replies quickly, and ask him any questions. He is a former NASA engineer specializing in underwater signal transmission and he has been making cables for over 30 years. Aqueous fluid cable was his original cable. You can also talk to Audiogon member albertporter who is now Purist dealer as well. He personally has been using these cables from the very beginning of their existence, though he always has top of the line. As for the sound, I'll spare you all the audiophile jargon, they are exquisite sophisticated cables with incredible soundstage. They do nothing wrong and almost everything right. I would not rush with buying expensive power cord for Luxman. First, I would get tonearm cable and speaker cables and would listen for a few weeks or month with either stock Luxman cord or, say, $200 Audio Art Classic cord. 300 hours of burn in time for Purist, less for Audio Art. Then you could decide where to go next. It would also to a degree depend on how much electrical work on your house wiring you were going to do. But if you want to get everything at the same time and everything new, that's more difficult and possibly more expensive. Getting cabling perfectly right is tough even with unlimited budget. |
Mike, you can call me names, but I read thru some threads on Audiogon, thought about it a little, and if I were to take a wild guess taking into account everything, I would say that unless you value ultimate high frequency extension at the expense of other things, very probably the best speaker cables for your Luxman/Magico duo would be Purist Audio Design Neptune fluid cables. That would be $2000, and there is nothing I can do about it. I suspect you could get away with something for $1000 but it would not be the same, possibly not even close. The alternatives could be - Echole and Stage III Concepts brands - more expensive. Yes, I use Neptune interconnects. I have never seen them used for sale since the time of their introduction, and many have been sold. You could try some Wywire, Audience and Acoustic Zen copper cables but.. |
Putting cost aside for the moment, it is interesting how to best match speaker cables. Though to both, of course, I think one should match them more to the speakers than to the amp. I would not go with either excessively warm cables or too cold, let alone zippy with articulated high frequencies ones. Cables should be linear, balanced, clear, harmonically correct. It might also depend on the kind of music you mostly listen to. Mike is going to listen to a lot of classical jazz, this requires both detailed and sophisticated sound with great imaging and soundstage. I would probably though not necessarily go with the same brand for the amp power cord. Model can be the same or different but the cord must be capable of passing a lot of amperage and be very well shielded. |
Mike, I think you could start a thread asking what others use with their Magico speakers. Foregone conclusion - most use quite expensive cables, and they don't do it for nothing. There is also a matter of sound preference, equally good cables will not sound exactly the same. I would put digital aside for the moment, interconnects and power cord for the cd player can be done last. Speaker cables and power cord for the Luxman is the priority, and I would go with the VPI tonearm cable unless I was prepared to pay a few times that. Getting wall current right is very important indeed, but it is a somewhat separate task, though the better the wall current the less difference between power cords. Another thought is that although initial expense is high, if you keep your equipment for decades it won't be that much per year. I spend about $100 per month on the equipment on average and it is not very little, I do have expensive cables. |