Pimping your router

I wrote my own take on the subject here:
https://pqltd.blogspot.com/2021/02/get-optomal-wifi-for-audio-streaming.html

Antigrunge2, I will be at stage 3 once I get my streamer. I must use a 14' ethernet cable at the moment. Once I have had a chance to get acquainted with streaming I likely will consider other tweeks. Thanks. 

Isn't there a law against that?

Pimping your router isn‘t the same as routing your pimp😱

You can do this but I wouldn't recommend it. Randy Kozarski had a show called Pimp My Router, and all it did was give Chip Foose a better idea.

@erik_squires ,
I read your article. Very interesting about the fact that wifi signals emit a hemispherical signal below them.
'I did not know that?'
                       -J. Carson
B

Hey @gdnrbob

I was over-simplifying somewhat, but the principle of putting the router at or above your devices is real.

I suggest you stay away from wifi anywhere near your system or the router that serves it. If you need wifi, get a setup separate from your system. It‘ll do wonders to your music enjoyment.

@erik_squires 

”Lady cave” sounds very unflattering. 

Yuh, ruelly....Chic Chalet would be more...well, nice. *L*

(...since I use routers for wood frequently, I admit to 'pimping' both with under table lifts; that can to mind 1st, but wood butchers Do that. ;)...)

wrap router and LPS in EMI/RFI shielding material

Did you see “Better call Saul” the TV series? Saul’s brother was suffering from severe  EMI/RFI allergy and he used that  EMI/RFI shielding material all over his house. The guy even had to go totally analog to enjoy his jazz collection without allergic reaction :)

The EMO EN70-HD isn’t an Ethernet filter, just an isolation transformer, of which the router and streamer already has built-in as standard. The ENO Filter from Network Acoustics is a proper filter.

@richtruss,

the EMO filters RFI/EMI as well as ground level noise from long ethernet runs, whether you call or not call that a filter is your personal choice. As to your stated fact that one of these is also built into the streamer: there is plenty of evidence that multiples in series are beneficial and in my case the insertion of the EMO filter was significant for SQ

You will also note that I listed an additional Acoustic Revive filter higher up the list, this has passive characteristics as does your ENO filter.

Btw: you should make people aware that your post promotes your own product.

Or you can contact Small Green Computer Co. and they can get you all set up with a fiber optic solution. You can run fiber for miles with no signal loss.
Hope the solution described above also included a fire sprinkler system. Can only imagine all the heat generated from pimping.

Use a turntable, play records, avoid all above...😁

@audioguy85

Yeah, like analog is plug n play 😂. By your own admission on another thread, “Analog is a very involving listen. However, it does require work, but I like the challenge.”

A good playback system regardless of the format requires work.

Yeah turns out proper shielding is a thing. I wrote about improving my streaming experience but hadn't tested the effects on the rest of the system:https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/bluesound-node2i-and-wifi-frustrations-mesh
Turns out having the mesh node in the stereo cabinet is a bad idea with regards to my C-J Premier 6 pre-preamp... It's VERY sensitive to EMI. So I either need to move the mesh node across the living room and run Cat5 or shut down the node to play vinyl. *facepalm*
Happy listening.

@musicfan2349,

You can certainly turn off the node during vinyl playback or alternatively place the ERS on top or around mesh. I am using a small cut-out on top of my Apple router. 
https://www.stillpoints.us/index.php/product/ers

I understand the possibility of interference when electronic components are very close, but besides that, why so much concern? Digital packets either arrive, or they don’t. For instance, a few feet and a few dozen feet mean nothing to data integrity. Turns out they do matter if you want your buy to be first in the stock exchange. But again, that’s an issue of a data packet being first, not of it losing integrity or not arriving.

I’m genuinely curious. To those of you who have noticed a difference from this kind of effort? What percentage of the total music experience does this add? If your current listening experience is considered 100%, does this add 50% better sound, 10%, 0.5%? If it’s a low percentage, how are you sure that it’s real and not perceived? Again, I’m being genuine here, not snarky.

@ohmy,

the issue isn‘t about loss of data but rather about EMI/RFI as well as ground level noise getting into the system alongside the data and subsequently messing with analogue stages. This manifests itself with harsh treble, reduced imaging and a generally washed out, less dynamic presentation. Hence the lengths to which I have gone on keeping them out. Hope that helps.

ohmy

Digital packets either arrive, or they don’t ... I’m genuinely curious. To those of you who have noticed a difference from this kind of effort? What percentage of the total music experience does this add? ... if it’s a low percentage, how are you sure that it’s real and not perceived? Again, I’m being genuine here ...

The notion that you can describe an improvement in a percentage doesn’t make sense to me. There’s just no standardized measure. On the other hand, if someone says, for example, "it improved the bass a lot," that’s something to which most people can relate. Or, as @antigrunge2 wrote above, there is "harsh treble, reduced imaging" without it.

If you’re genuinely curious about this tweak, why not try it for yourself and report back?

My set up:
Spectrum broadband cable (200 Mbps) -> Arris Surfboard Modem (up to 1 Gbps) -> Linksys WiFi mesh system (no bandwidth loss when compared to speed of service at modem; note that CAT5 is spec'd at 100 Mbps).

This allows for modem, router and switching power supplies be physically distant from the system, in my case ca. 30'. No incremental noise. When these items are close to the system and connected on the same circuit, they add audible noise, even with use of a decent power conditioner (Shunyata Hydra alpha). 

I run a Roon core on a MacBook pro (set as priority client on Linksys system), which is via Toslink connected to a DSPeaker 4 and via WiFi to an OPPO 205 (10 ms buffer). Both configurations are excellent, the OPPO has an edge over the DSPeaker.

I realize frequent comments here that using a computer as server is inadequate and "noisy". In my case extensive comparisons with an Aurender (fed via Ethernet) and Auralic device (WiFi) did not reveal any discernible difference and visitors with trained ears could not reliably tell one source from the other.

It seems in the end this is all about implementation. In my experience you can achieve excellent streaming results via WiFi. 

Good luck!

@antigrunge2 - Gotcha. The interference I get. Thanks for explaining. I thought part of the problem you were describing was data loss and that just didn’t make sense to me.

@cleeds - I guess that’s the way my brain works when thinking of these things, but what you said makes good sense to me, too. Thanks for the thoughtful reply and I might have to give it a go.

@aschuh,

the real test would be to have a dedicated hard-wired streamer feed your Oppo via ethernet or USB. In your current setup you don‘t really have a way of assessing the upgrade potential. Unfortunately wifi receivers have their own noise issues. Additionally you may be in a neighbourhood without bandwidth constraints on wifi through multiple users; most people tend to not be in that happy position.

I stream wirelessly but did notice a perceived improvement in sound quality when switching out the two really cheesy DSL cables from wall to router provided by my ISP with those in the link below. 

Much more substantial in terms of both cable and connectors, and I would expect shielding as well. 

And if I'm imagining things, the cost was quite low. ;)

http://www.cablestogo.com/product/28721/7ft-rj11-high-speed-internet-modem-cable

For the more Techno challenged can you say the tweak list should be
tried even in the event you have the ISO Ether-Regen?

Thanks,

Jeff

The elimination of RFI from the Ethernet input of my Bricasti M5 streamer in my system has transformed it to the point that I’ve now sold my £4K turntable and will now press on with selling my vinyl. In my system, streaming wins hands down.

Industry disclosure: I'm a Network Acoustics designer.

@Chorus, our experience shows the ER benefits a lot from an Ethernet filter on the output.

@chorus,

The Etherregen allows you to go optical between the router and the ER and on most accounts that is preferable.
This eliminates ethernet related tweaks. Conversely the advice on cabling between the internet connection and the router, the improved power supply and shielding of the router and potentially the use of the Acoustic Revive filter at the router stay valid. Even if you decide on an optical connection, keeping distortions out of the chain from the onset has benefits. Also see above comment on the usefulness of filters between ER and streamer

Recently got roughed up by the learning curve of adding fiber.  Different SFP's and fiber sound different just like cables sound different.  Some are thin and bright, others dark and muddy.

I have 2 suggestions, first find Finisar FTLF1324P2BTL 4gb Fiber Channel SFP Transceivers on ebay, second
for fiber  https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/phoenix-contact/2989284/?qs=MfVUZiz0Pxb22RFH%252b7EEOg==&co...

However I am using one Finisar 1324 on the ER and a Finisar 1318 on a SOtM switch and prefer it to 2 1324's.  It has a slightly fuller softer sound, maybe a little less detailed.

I connected a mesh satellite using a .5 meter Supra Cat. 8  ethernet cable directly into my streamer. The SQ is very good but not quite beat the SACD yet. 

I may need a Acoustic Revive RLT-1 filter to improve SQ more. I think you need to order it from Japan through eBay. 

Interesting conversations.....I have tried Fiberoptic years ago and to my ears, fiber did not sounded fuller and dynamic compare to LAN cable (RJ45). I also prefer a simpler and clutter free approach, the fewer devices (conversions) in the chain yields to better signal integrity and minimize external interferences.

My streaming setup, Apple router ➡️ Network Acoustics LAN Ag ➡️ ENO Ag Filter ➡️ Streamer.

The Apple router is treated with Stillpoints ERS (EMI/RFI Suppression) cloth. I may try Acoustic Revive RLT-1 to see if there is any further improvement in lowering the noise. For now, I am very satisfied with ENO Filter.

@lalitk

And you liked the ENO better than the EtherREGEN if I remember right?

Did you try the ENO with the ER? Reason for asking is that I have my ER with an SR4T powering it near my router, which is in a different room 20' from my system. Just wondering if adding the ENO may provide another significant SQ benefit.

BTW, I did try the ER next to my streamer, but it sounds about the same whether 20' away or in the same room, and maybe just a little better 20' away.

Hi everyone,

Might be my first post here.  I sell/troubleshoot enterprise grade wifi as a day job and can attest to many of the comments in here.  For those advocating for a dedicated network just for your audio, I'd say likely unnecessary and possibly brings about challenges (co-channel or adjacent channel interference) than it might be worth.  Anything in the WiFi6 standard can handle 10-20 clients rather easily.  Mine go from basement to second floor comfortably in my new (old plaster walls) home.  So if you're going to use it do 5GHZ in the same room and you should be more than fine.  You can use "Airport Utility" on an Iphone to quickly see what your neighbors are doing and ensure clear RF as shown in the picture above.  Lastly the notion of WiFi being optimized for mounting on ceilings is 100% true, for the enterprise class products. If you bought it at a big box store it's likely more for desktop....and if you have the articulating antennas you can play with them a bit to adjust polarity to optimize signal.  Hope this helps!  

EW

@pokey77,

I am not familiar with your setup. Are you currently running a 20FT fiberoptic cable from etherRegen to your streamer? My Apple router is only 4FT away from my streamer and ENO Filter can only accept RJ45 LAN cable. The improvements I’ve heard with ENO were so pronounced over my JCAT Net Isolator that I didn’t bother to pursue any further comparisons. Plus i like passive nature of ENO, no wall wart or LPS needed with ENO.

Rich and Anti,

You two should team up and make a YouTube Video so everyone
can see and learn.

How about it?

Rich and Anti,

You two should team up and make a YouTube Video so everyone
can see and learn.

How about it?

@pokey77 

I have an ENO filter between an Innuos Server and ER.  The ENO gives an immediate sweetness to the sound.  The ER is different it adds a blackness and resolution.  They compliment each other.

I had the ENO between the Innuos and an EE8 Switch for a while but the ER is definitely better there.  The ER is connected by fiber to a SOtM switch.

Asvjerry- now you know why MC prefers analog over digital, his craftsman router wasn’t performing up to par. He tried putting springs on it and using Home Depot interconnects and speaker wire with not much luck either

I went with an opticalRendu for the last three meters to clear whatever grunge was in the LAN.  Once the signal hits the fiber the noise can't travel any further.  It was a nice clean up of the sound.  Noise reduction in the power lines and LAN really makes a nice difference.

gkr7007

I went with an opticalRendu for the last three meters to clear whatever grunge was in the LAN. Once the signal hits the fiber the noise can't travel any further.

How can this be? Do you mean that the fiber isn't transmitting all of the signal that is at its input? That seems to be what you're suggesting, yet the fiber connection can't distinguish between signal and noise, can it?

The principal benefit of fibre is its immunity to EMI/RFI and ground level distortion as well as clock deviations for the length of the cable. That however doesn‘t mean that distortions in the conversion from optical to electrical as well as back to electrical into the streamer are prevented. So whether fibre really brings an advantage over ethernet is highly situation specific. As a rule of thumb lenghts over more than 10m/30ft tend to favor fibre.

About a month and a half ago AT&T dropped DSL and mandated that I switch to their fiber. I had been putting it off for over a year. Then they said, "no more." Fiber, or nothing. Well.. I decided to go with it. But had not been keen on the idea because my past experiences with optical in the past with my DAC’s.

I am glad they made me do it. All that leads to my room from the outside is high quality AT&T fiber. And, fiber from the wall to the modem. Thin looking stuff. The modem/router they provided is a new model from South Korea. Its a" BGW320."    Its this: https://www.att.com/support/article/u-verse-high-speed-internet/KM1395833/
I chose to run from the modem to my PC an audiophile high quality Pangea, ethernet cable.

It took a while to adjust and burn in. I have all wi-fi is disabled. The link can show you the various ways it can be configured.
After burn in time  I am floored on how its transformed my system’s sound. Not using wi-fi. Its strictly fiber to the modem, and ethernet cable to PC...

The fiber I figure cuts out a ton of noise normally picked up by all the copper cables that the DSL had running from outside. Whatever it is? I am quite surprised. I now find myself for the first time relaxing and enjoying, no more analyzing....
fwiw.. Gene Z.

@anzaanimalclinic

Thanks for sharing your experience.

@lalitk

Sorry, I think I got you mixed up with someone else that had both the ER and the ENO.

Yes, sort of. I run a 20' section of Cat 5e under my house from router to wall jack in my listening room. Then Supra 8+ to streamer. Also Supra 8+ from wall jack to router. My ER is in the room where the router is and so goes across the 20' of Cat 5e.

I do like the fact the ENO needs no power supply.

What does ER stand for in posts above? EttherReggen?

Upgrade your cable to Cat-6. Cat6  cable TIA/EIA-568-B provides a significant improvement in performance over Cat5 and Cat 5e. You don't need a filter or foil-covered router. Update your router firmware regularly as well.

I would like peoples opinion on the following setup as it has several potential weak links.

I have Verizon Fios 75/75 feeding the Quantum wireless router upstairs. The signal is then distributed throughout the house via coax and Actiontec 802.11ac that Verizon puts their name on it downstairs where my setup lives. (MOCA)

https://www.amazon.com/Actiontec-802-11ac-Extender-Internet-Antennas/dp/B01BV1Y3W2/ref=asc_df_B01BV1...

I then run a CAT6 to my Lumin d1 and Yamaha receiver. I also a 55" Sony A9G, Apple TV and a Cambridge CXU all connected via wifi. Any thoughts or questions?

Thanks in advance,

John   

@brenn,

Can you go ethernet to the Lumin rather than inserting wifi?If not, use a high quality, short cable (e.g. Meicord) between Actiontec and Lumin. If you can go ethernet, I‘d suggest inserting and EMO or ENO filter ahead of the server

As stated, I do connect via Ethernet as the Lumin doesn’t have WiFi and checking with the factory about galvanic isolation.