Hello all - long time lurker, first time poster. I've enjoyed reading so many of these posts, and I feel like I'm learning so much from you guys. Thank you for that.
I am strongly considering a pair of Dynaudio 20i - I am aware they require serious amplification - but I suspect that they'll be too much for a small room
Room specs: (11 wide by 14 long, normal ceiling height with acoustical tile, carpet tile covering one entire wall, wall-to-wall carpet on top of cement slab, no basement).
Hello forum - checking in after completing stage one of the upgrade.
I purchased a used AVM Ovation 6.2ME integrated on US Audio Mart - thanks Michael - which is an absolute beast into 4 ohms. Beautiful clarity and headroom for days. I think it's an excellent match-up to the Dynaudio 20i mains.
However, it was never my intention to run the speakers full-on - even though the extension seems clean down to low 40's - as I've always preferred to get that tight thump from a great subwoofer. The good news is that I can run a great sub from the pre-outs on the AVM. The bad news is that I have no way of setting a crossover point to take some of the low end load off the Dyns. Or do I?
I considered a daisy-chain from the amp's speaker outputs to the sub's speaker inputs, then from the sub's speaker outputs to the mains, but it seems that no sub manufacturer offers speaker-level outputs on their subs these days. Even if they did, I don't know what type of signal degradation might occur in such a setup, or if it's even a wise or feasible option.
Am I stuck with a (killer) amp running my Dyns full-on? Or is there an audio guru amongst us that has a trick they'd like to share?
I’ve ran the Confidence series and Heritage Specials. My HS are in about the same size room as you’re referencing. I use the standard issued Dyn stands for the speakers, along with the HS plate. I recommend you fill whichever stands you go with. I used aquarium rocks, they come in various sizes and is rather inexpensive and not messy.
I use the Dynaudio Sub6 with the HS and it sounds fantastic. The HS are little boomers for their size, but the sub does help at with the low Hz.
I’ve ran various amps, but one thing is consistent, Dyn’s need current. I’ve ran McIntosh, Pass Labs and PS Audio amps in various flavors. I would not run McIntosh with Dyn again, sound fell apart if you got on it. The Confidence series do need room to breath off the wall, considerably. The HS seem to operate great in a traditional space/corner set up; they’re set about 2 feet from side and back.
Room acoustics are key, I’ve used both room treatment, along with a DSP and produced great results. I would get your speaker toe/placement set first, then add treatment(s), then settle if you need something like a Dirac or DEQX Premate.
So I have a small music room, 11.5 x11.5 x 9.5. I have Wilson Sabrina X's, a REL s/510 sub, an MSB DAC, ARC REF 6 preamp and a Pass Labs 250.8. The Wilsons are fantastic in my room . . . very pleased. I can't say anything about the Dynaudios, but I can say that a smaller room than yours can handle a good sized floor stander like the Sabrina X's. My next move will be to do a full treatment on the room!
Dyns are an excellent choice for an all-arounder. Location and treating the dedicated space to them is a great start. IF you are on a learning curve, building around a beloved speaker choice, integrated amplification is a fine approach. If digital source only, tubes somewhere is a must for me. I ran similar sized, power hungry Salk Veracity loudspeakers for several years in my small, dedicated space, successfully.
Upgrading (yes) to a smaller Revolution Be (more detail in my posts) loudspeaker and adding a Rythmik L12 sealed subwoofer while rolling off my Music Reference tube amplifier at 80Hz to the monitors provides tons of dynamics and musicality. The EL84 tube 4some provide whopping thunder to the Be's, while retaining delicacy. letshearit, I suspect adding a similar subwoofer approach to the Dynaudios would yield a similar result.
Bon Chance and welcome to the worlds of even-order harmonics! Find someone nearby with whom you are comfortable as an Advisor, then trust your ears and judgement. It's a fun ride.
I have the same problem; only my speakers are Altec VOT's - big speakers small room. Room is slightly smaller than yours; I rationalize it by thinking I have the worlds largest set of headphones. Still sounds great but you don't need near as my power to become uncomfortable.
Understanding how to operate a speaker management system which is a fancy term for a DSP unit, is really not that difficult. Their functions are pretty straight forward. The hardest part is training your ear so you can distinguish what you like from what you don't like and that just takes practice.
The biggest take away from all of this in my opinion is to figure out how to get your room under control. Once you do, your audio possibilities pretty much become, endless.
If you want to take a deeper dive into some of this stuff send me a PM. I would be more that happy to help.
I would tell you my listening room is dominated by my wife who puts all her crap everywhere causing my listening experience to vary wildly. not at all sure that wool is the best choice, my wife suggested a blend of polyester and cotton, she says it is stretchable, which I had not realized was and audiophile thing,, any suggestions?
Tool has been a fave of mine since Opiate. Big fan of RATM too.
Your sub setup seems quite impressive, even if I only understood about 25% of what you described. I’m sure that processor handles everything amazingly well, but that stuff is WAY over my head at this point. I can’t even decide on what base gear is best for me. The journey continues.
I'm curious to know what you consider "very loud aggressive music.
Lately I have been listening quite a bit to Fear Inoculum by Tool. I also like Orbital, NIN, Ministry, Big Black, Moon Duo, The Black Angels, Foo Fighters just to name a very small sampling, along with other genres like Folk, Jazz and classic Country.
And 4X 12" subs? What is your crossover
My main speakers are book shelf speakers, so two of the subs are slightly behind but in line with those, and those subs are low passed at 161 Hz using a 24 db Butterworth slope while the mains are high passed at 191 Hz using a 24 db Link/Riley slope which gives me a 6 db down point a little under 200 Hz. The actual down point and frequency will vary somewhat depending on the gain settings for the front subs and mains which varies from recording to recording. The other two subs are placed in an asynchronous (not the word I want but the only one I can think of right now) pattern in the room and are high passed at 79 Hz using a 48 db Butterworth slope. All four subs are high passed at 34 Hz using a 24 db Butterworth slope.
Are you feeding them with sub-outs or speaker-level?
My preamp connects to a XTA DP448 speaker management unit that handles the crossover duties, time alignment, gain setting, driver protection, and per channel input and output equalization if desired. I will never again use a speaker level sub connection.
I heard the Dynaudio Special 40 with Moon electronics at Quintessence Audio in Chicago, and man that was some music/sound. Immediately grabbed my attention and I could not just NOT sit down and listen. That was some special pairing. But the room also made a big difference.
I’ve owned the special 40’s. They work quite well with Jazz, classical, and most vocal instrumentation.
Electronic, rock, hip hop. Yes. They will play. Though they do not accelerate well with that style of music. At least that was my experience. Pass labs xa25, Herron vtsp line stage. I have zero treatment in my room, with the exception of wall to wall office carpet for my entire apartment. Maybe it helps. Maybe it hinders. Went back to my old speakers. My little part of the world is good now.
continued excellent advice. I've got a lot to think about prior to the amp purchase, but the research and learning is a big part of the fun for me. Thanks to all who have contributed helpful advice.
@audiorusty - I'm curious to know what you consider "very loud aggressive music." Do tell. And 4X 12" subs? What is your crossover? Are you feeding them with sub-outs or speaker-level? It must thump, indeed.
I assumed I'd set up the speakers on the narrow end
I think that with your size room it would be better to place your speakers along the 11' wall. This will allow you to place both your speakers and your listening chair closer to the center of the room and away from the walls. You should try and keep a few feet if possible between your chair and the wall behind it.
The room will always be your biggest obstacle in achieving great sound. I would put most of my energy into learning how to either tune your room to your system (room treatments) or tune your system to your room (equalization) or a combination of both.
My room is 14' 4" x 10' 6" x 9'. I'm pairing small bookshelf speakers with 4) 12" subs. I play very loud aggressive music and I feel the highs are very clear and distinct, the mids are warm and natural and the lows thump but are not boomy.
@asctim - interesting advice, as I assumed I'd set up the speakers on the narrow end, but I'll play with both and see what I like better.
Regarding subs, I agree. I've had huge speakers in the past (Acoustic Research TSW 810s I think) that did not need subwoofers! - we used to call them coffins. Anyway, those were tough to move from both a weight perspective and a room mode perspective (had large rear-firing woofers).
I've since moved to smaller speakers (bookshelf) with a B&W ASW610 sub and I like the flexibility of being able to move things around more easily. As I prepare for my next significant upgrade, Ive been moving things around quite a bit to hear how the speakers and the room sound. When my new, smaller room is ready I can begin experimentation in there. Really excited. Sub is at least 20 years old and well used, so I'll consider replacing/upgrading (maybe 2) into the new space.
One thing to think about is that smaller monitors with some subs may be more flexible in a smaller room. You can put the monitors where they image best and have the best overall tone. Put the subs where they interact best with the room. Since they’re two very different domains in terms of what’s happening in the room, there is some solid logic to breaking the speakers into more pieces rather than monolithic full frequency towers.
As long as you can EQ levels somehow, there’s no problem with adding speakers with too much bass capacity. At worst it’ll be wasted capacity. I’d be inclined to try to play that room sideways, assuming it’s ergonomically practical, which means some kind of treatment for the rear wall which won’t be far behind your head. I’ve got a 12’ x 20’ room and it’s much better played sideways. I like a wide and open sound stage and it’s hard to get that with only 12 feet. 14 feet is certainly better than 11. Of course if you can you should try it both ways. I’ll confess the bass was better when I played the setup on the 12’ wall. I was getting solid response down to 20 Hz. Now it falls off rapidly at 35 Hz before rising again for a while below 20 Hz. There’s real 5 Hz response, but what good is that with a hole between 20 and 35? It’s not too important to me, not as important as what’s happening up higher.
Putting a speaker into a small room is not easy. The issues of amp and other gear are minor compared to the speaker and room interactions. I learned this the hard way.
My room is 11x15 speakers are Canton 9k stand mounted and two SVS SB1000pro subs driven by Technics SUG 700 integrated. The Cantons sound very good by themselves with their approx.7 woofers", that is until I added the two subs.
The subs took the sound to another level, imagine, dynamics, soundstage, inner detail all improved by adding subs. I was not expecting this level of enhancement. Keep in mind you have a volume control, yea if I go nuts, I can shake the house, its a small cape cod after all. But woo the benefit of TWO subs in my room! I bet they will make significant improvement to your sound in your room, so at some point check out subs.
I would also suggest going tube preamp and ss amp. Tube amps can sound amazing, but they do require more in ongoing maintenance and cost ( usually).and they typically run hotter ( this is something to consider...heat is not your friend in a small room). Whereas, I think you get about 90% + of the way there with a tube preamp and good ss amp. The Dynaudio’s work well with both a medium powered tube amp and a medium to high powered ss amp. So long as flea powered ( single ended typically) tube amps are not in the mix, all should be good.
I have/had a small budget and so far I found the best combination: tube preamp, SS amp. If you are open to used, you can put together a great pair for under $1000.
Based on advice from you and others, I’ve been paying attention to the WPC specs as impedance gets halved.
I’m going to stick with SS for now. As with any complex subject, the more you explore the more you realize how much you don’t know. So many rabbit holes. Seems the rabbit holes have their own rabbit holes!
Those Dyns are typically demoed with Primaluna integrated, which are a great match. But if you’re new to all this, might be a good idea to keep things simple and stay away from tubes, which can become another rabbit hole. The main issue with most Dyns is that they require high current. So look at integrated ams that double, 100 into 8 ohms, 200 into 4 and so on.
Musical tastes are all over the place - Mozart to Metallica, Coltrane to Coldplay, Deadmau5 to Dylan, Bonamassa to Black Sabbath. Lots and lots of blues, both the old guard and newer artists. Good amount of classic rock, alternative, and prog rock too. In short, too many styles to generalize. Not sure if this makes choosing gear more difficult or less!
I guess I'm looking for good balance, tight bass, and revealing detail while avoiding harshness. I seem to be rather intolerant of brightness around the 1KHz to 3KHz range. Not sure if it's my existing room or existing system, thus the desire to relocate and upgrade.
Lot’s of good advice here but no questions about what kind of music you like and at what volume?
The reason I ask, is that your musical preferences can and should inform your speaker/amp choices.
One of the reasons I went with Harbeth is they are designed to sound very good at low levels, and do IMO. But even the 40’s aren’t the best rock speakers.
Just an example - not trying to sell you on Harbeth at all.
@letshearit Since you have flexibility with treatments you can definitely make it work. I have a similar sized room and had a few speakers in there, including KEF LS50, Thiel CS3.7, and now Magnepan LRS+. I like the LRS+ in the small room the best because it seems the easiest to place. I do need 3 feet from the front wall.
I have managed to add 4 feet into my office space by leveraging a closet, and that helps the sonics. Also keeping the door open helps. I have photos on my A’gon Virtual System.
If you want a sonic safety net for a too big speaker in a small room, then this guy will solve your room issues. Genius level knowledge of room issues. If you use ROON then you can easily use his remote service to fix the room. I do not use his Convolution filters with the LRS+ since I find it an easy placement. I used it with the Thiel CS3.7.
My LRS+ is a bear to drive to get it sounding as good as it can get. It needs a lot of power, and I used the following:
PeachTree GAN400 (a sleeper amp, with a touch of hardness on top. $1k used, Class D GANFET, 400 watts)
Sanders Magtech ($4k used from Sanders, Class AB 500 watts)
CODA #16 ($16k, mostly Class A and 150 watts, huge current)
Benchmark AHB2 (works in the small room but not as good as the other 3, 100 watts)
All 3 amps can work, depends on how fussy you get. I am now stuck with the #16 since it sounded the best with the LRS+. Though if I had not heard the #16 with the LRS+ I would have been totally content with the Sanders. The PeachTree is good and great for the price.
My takeaway is that even in a small room a hard to drive speaker sounds the best with a lot of power. My CODA is the most powerful sounding. The Sanders and GAN400 follow.
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My LRS+ system sounds great but there are limits due to the room. If you want something that seems unlimited sonically (no room) then consider the new RAAL 1995 Immanis ($10k). I have the lesser models CA-1a/SR1a and that is better than the LRS+ system that I have. The SR1a is like 2-channel sound.
I will only look at speaker like the LRS+ for my small room from now on. The LRS+ is good but the drivers have some limitations in detail, compared to my Livingroom speaker This was a bit of an issue for me until I put the #16 amp in and now, I am not bothered. However, when I was bothered, I did some research and found these guys who make an LRS+ competitor that has been compared more favorably than the LRS+.
@daveyf - yes, it will be a dedicated room, so I'll have flexibility as far as positioning and room treatments without disrupting the living space.
I have zero experience with tube amps, so I'll be starting with AB or D and go from there as I learn more about this world of HiFi and develop a better ear.
I have a short list already, but opinions on amp choice is welcome too. This forum has infinitely more knowledge and experience than I, but I also realize that opinions vary widely, as does confirmation bias and brand loyalty. If you make a recommendation, please let it be something you know personally.
A small room can actually be your friend. My system resides in a smaller room than you are working with, but like stated above, with the correct room acoustic treatments, the system can sound great. I use two small subwoofers to smooth out the response and a medium powered tube amp ( and a high powered ss amp, which sounds about the same in volume as the tube amp, although I do not use the ss amp at the same time as the tube amps). The size of the speakers does matter, but the speakers you are contemplating should be fine, assuming some care in placement and some acoustic treatments. Is this room going to be dedicated room?
All advice greatly appreciated thus far. I'm writing down the important stuff.
@sounds_real_audio - I don't feel that the speaker purchase requires a new more powerful amp. If I already had a serious amp I'd very likely keep it, but I'm upgrading from a not-so-robust Yamaha AVR that I'm sure is not up to the task (both from a quality and oomph perspective).
I'm weighing the options between separates and a great integrated. I presume some of you consider "great integrated" an oxymoron 😉, but unfortunately I have budgetary considerations to keep in mind.
I am always a little skeptical of speakers that will require you to purchase a new and more powerful amplifier....where does all that power go...into the crossover and out the door. So many choices out there...
Good advice about room treatment. I would suggest getting a mic and using something like REW to measure your room before treating it, and measure after treatment installation. Or you could use dsp or Dirac or some other digital room correction. I have no experience with either of the last two. I have used a mic and REW and that was straight forward. I assume dsp and Dirac are as well.
I will pile on and applaud your excellent choice. They should work well in your room size, set up on proper stands and positioned with care. You don’t say whether you have electronics, nor what you expect in terms of dynamics, but a pair of 7” woofers cannot be expected to deliver limitless impact no matter the amp. I would start with a 50-100W high current model. Given the price range of the speakers, a used Michi integrated might be a good place to start.
I own the Contour 20i's and drive them in a small room with a 25W, Class A, First Watt M2...they sound GREAT. Plenty of dynamics, tight bass, and power at all volumes. These are not that hard to drive. And btw, my amp has a damping factor of 20...zero issues with bass control.
I concur on room treatment, I have an even smaller room with decent size dipole speakers, adding sound treatment to various locations made a huge difference.
GIKacoustics offers free room treatment advice which I found very helpful.
Check out the room in my profile; its 13’x11’. I’m using Contour20s powered by a McIntosh 352 IA, 200 watts. Note: I was also using two subs but have since removed the subs from the set-up. They simply weren’t necessary with the deep bass range of the Contour20s. I do have the Contours mounted on the Dynaudio stands with tubes filled with sand for added weight and density.
My speakers are 3’ from both the back wall and side wall and I use sound material on the wall directly behind my seating position. I totally enjoy this space.
I've had the opportunity to audition the Dynaudio Contour 20i speakers, and I must say, their sound quality is very impressive. According to Stereophile's review, the Contour 20 speakers pair well with two modest class A tube amplifiers (with 22-35 wpc), but they don't seem to favor a 400-watt per channel class D amplifier. This suggests that the compatibility issue lies more in quality matching rather than sheer wattage power. Given that a pair of used Contour 20 speakers is available at half the price of the new 20i model in the market, it's definitely worth considering.
My third system comprising NHT SB3, almost the same spec with 20/20i, performs quite well in my even smaller room. What has been confined / compromised is soundstage due to space constraint but the rest of sound attributes can be tuned well with care.
The room treatments will keep the mid-high frequencies tamed, EQ will help you deal with room modes. You may even consider bass traps.
Also, check out the AM Acoustics room simulator to help you find ideal placements for your speakers and listening location as well as to inform you of where to expect worst problems in bass.
As I dealer, I had one too many customers say: "My room’s not big enough for a Home Theater!" So, I bought a 30" x 30" British phone booth (replica, the real ones literally weigh a ton) and put a full 7.1 surround system in it -- custom enclosures, infloor subs, etc. This thing rocked!!
After that, when people said the familiar: "My room is not big enough for home theater!", the qualifying question was: "Is it bigger than thirty by thirty inches?"
Small rooms have their challenges (and benefits). Great advice here from guys who know a lot about the subject. Best of luck.
My first audio room was small like yours--13x15 feet. Here is what worked great in that room:
Speakers were pulled off the front wall about 6 feet and then 2 feet from the side walls and toed in to the listening chair which was just off of the rear wall forming an equilateral triangle.
Treat first reflection points on the side walls and then behind the listening chair with rockwool panels. Making your own is way cheaper and just as good or better. If you want premade panels, check out Audiomute, priced better than GIK and some of the other routine recommendations.
I tried multiple speakers in that set up and the all sounded great with an stereo image that made that small room sound HUGE.
My room is almost exactly the size of yours, but opted for sealed cabinet Spendor 4/5 Classic (small monitors). But had some ported speakers before them and it was just fine. As stated earlier, with 14 feet you can pull them well away from the front wall - say 3-4 feet from the wall to the front of the speaker. Experiment with distance from sidewalls, but may need to get them a little closer to the sidewalls than in a larger room in order to get a decent enough stage. A bit of sidewall/ first-reflection treatment mixed with diffusion and some bass trapping is pretty much essential (even if you’ve got that much rug). Get in touch with a company like GIK for free advice on treatment and placements. But don’t overdo it, a little on the live side is alway more natural sounding 👍🏼
@OP. You have plenty of space in a room that size to optimally position those speakers. They don't go particularly low in the bass either - which is a good thing in this case. Because this is essentially an American forum the way people evaluate room size is somewhat distorted. You room is not particularly small by European of Asian standards.
@letshearit I also have a room about that same size with a pair of Sonus Faber floor standers. I’ve found moving them well into the room and about 8’ apart solves wall reflections and some nasty bass nodes. I guess you would call it near field listening. My amp is a 140watt PC tube amp. The carpeted room sounds pretty fantastic. I don’t know the speakers but if you have room to play with positioning then I imagine even a larger speaker would fair well. Anyway…I hope so as I’m considering a size upgrade. Depends on this years taxes…! Good luck…!
Those speakers will be fine in your room. But you will need a beefy amplifier to drive these. They are rated as 86dB and 4 ohms, Ouch!. An amp tat can deliver high currents should drive these comfortably.
It is a combination of the amp and speaker and it applies regardless of woofer size. I believe you have the correct general understanding. I’m no expert on it though. Others here might have better insight.
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