While I much prefer Audio Research products, I still use a Hafler 500 I built at my desk in my shop in 1974. Recently checked over, the bias was adjusted and the amp pronounced perfect, and it sounds that way. I am using it on the bottom end of my bi-amped Tympani I-C's, so it is not called upon to be full range, but it works just fine either way. Not perfect in accuracy, but just fine.
The Adcom 535 I got around the same time runs my home office system, which I use when doing stuff like this. Neither is as accurate as the Audio Research amps I use on the top end or such older amps as the D-150--wish I still had one of those!--but they run and run and run and never give me a problem.
So yes, some older amps are just fine. This is not to say I would not buy a new amp given the $$ and desire, but since this is not a priority for me right now--fixing up my newly-purchased house is #1--I am not in the market.
But those two amps seem to do the job for over 40 years, so why complain? What else do you use that is 40+ years old and works as well as it did when new? Maybe a musical instrument, and of course my C-2, which needs constant attention, but that's about all I can think of.
Cheers! |
Threshold 4000, still pretty wonderful, recapped once |
The parasound hca 3500 i have owned it for twenty five years and have never heard or found a better overall amplifier for all speakers. My favorite tube amp is the sonic frontiers for the same reason Hilarious. The Parasound HCA 2500 II and the Sonic Frontiers Power 2 were two of the worst sounding amps I have owned (around 30 in the last 30 years). To each his own. Oz |
Krell Reference KRS200s.
Class A rules! |
B&K EX442/ST-140
PS Audio 200C/CX
VSP Labs Trans Mos 150
Acoustat TNT120/200
Moscode 300
Berning EA230
Onix OA21/21s
Tandberg 3012/3012a |
Bedini amps! I have a 25/25 and a 150/150! Plus a Bedini preamp! |
@ Sheridan
Please expand on the mod you might do to your Pass x350 that would yield a big improvement. Maybe it also applies to my X5.
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@coffee-jerk: I have the first production BEL 1001. Serial number 0001. Bought from the original owner who got it directly from Richard Brown. |
Imho....the majority of 'new' anything hasn't improved to any great degree of late. Most boast of various 'n sundry, but it seems to come down to ones' preferences in the interactions of the other components before and after 'Item X' in the space listened within....
It seems that one can always find 'flaw' or shortcomings in Anything.
One persons' Yay is anothers' Meh....
It's commented upon daily in these forums...
The Daily Kvetch...The emperors' new robes are still transparent, and his 'short comings' are painfully obvious. ;) |
Sorry, I meant DH-220, not DH-110. |
my arc vt60 (with curcio modded input stage) and 100.2 ss amp still kick some serious butt... :) |
Hafler DH-220 bought new in 1984 for $329 - which is what a used version is worth today. Still drive my MG-1.5QRs very well. |
I’ve the pleasure of owning as new vintage Yamaha amplifiers. A Pc2002m driving 4 infinity infinitesimal 0.2’s wall mounted.
A Pc4002m driving 2 base towers, and finally a Pc5002m driving the 2 mid/treble
panels. The Beta’s will drop to 1 ohm so certainly in efficient. The sound is clean with clipping out of the question if you intend on staying in the building. I’ve seen a few big name amps smoke trying to drive these speakers. Won’t be selling any of this stuff anytime soon.
Cheers |
Any fans of Brown Electronic Labs (BEL) out there? I had a 1001 MkII, was sad that I let it get away, so had to pick a MkV the first time I found a used one. Wonderful amps! |
The Sim audio w5 was an unbelievably good sounding amp especially for the money it was $5,000 Canadian. |
Adcom 535 ll. Nelson Pass design. Picked it up at the local flea for $40 and invested $100 to get it in top shape. Won't ever get rid of it, will always be my backup. Typical Nelson Pass detail and transparency. Specs state 40 watts/channel but like most Pass products a very moderate rating. |
Any of the Mark Levinson 3 series |
@bpoletti - The DH-110 is a preamp. |
@bpoletti / @nitrobob - The later DH-500/DH-220 driver boards had polypropylene caps, from C1, throughout (same board in both, btw). Hafler offered upgrade kits that contained all those caps (Sprague Orange Drops), of which I still have one. They went through three different power switches, over the years, before they found one that would handle the inrush current. I have three of the last Carling switches, with the updated wiring diagrams. The earliest 500/220 amps had 10uF electrolytics, at the board input, later replaced with 2uF polypropylene. Hafler offered a DH-203 (Bailey Mod for C1) upgrade kit, of which I have two (4 caps). I mention all that because I’d happily donate (gratis) those parts, to any party/parties interested in resurrecting their older Hafler(s). This company offers MOSFETs, with which to replace those used in Haflers, but- to my knowledge, NOT as matched NPN/PNP pairs/sets, which is critical: http://www.exicon.info/
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Still using My Pass X350 more than likely will recap. However, I`ve been informed of a minor mod that will give me better performance plan on enjoy it another 20 years. WOW Ill be 95years young lol. |
My 8b and 7 make me smile. Almost as old as me. This is my starting point or entry into the hobby. I know there’s better, but I’m happy. For now.
thrive |
Adcom 535, damnable auto correct! |
+1 on the Alcon 535 amp, mine is a 535 II.
My old but rebuilt GAS Ampzilla sounds really, really good, but my new SST Son of Ampzilla II is better still. The old Ampzilla has new 20amp Toshibas replacing the 15amp Motorolas for the output transistors |
Quad 303, what a wonderful amp, sheer musicality |
bpolettiYes, I remember that 3 speed cooling fan. Mine was 3 separate speeds. Didn’t take much to get low speed running, only after really spirted sessions would it be up on high. And we had a BUNCH of them...If you caught it in between songs you would hear the relay click up on the next speed. We torcher’ed our equipment back then. But that Hafler never flinched. |
The Soundcraftsmen MA5002. Class H beast runs cool, powers any speaker and sounds sweet. Matched with the SP4002 preamp was for me unbelievable fun in the 80s. I have 4 of each. Don't ask. |
Robertson 4010 Made in where? where to buy?
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Any older krell. I love my first gen ksa-100. Had the electrolytics replaced and it’s good for another 30yrs.. 80lbs, dual mono, pure class A. There are very few amps I’d upgrade to and those will cost a small fortune. Yeah the KSA-50 was really something |
@nitrobob
Hafler DH-500s were great amps once their front-end boards were modified. The biggest problem with the DH-500s was the variable speed cooling fan. It would always kick on during the quiet passages AFTER the big crescendo.
Like the DH-500, the DH-110 was a solid amp once the driver boards were modified and beefier power supplies replaced the stock ones. But stock units were so-so. |
Had to respond after reading n80’s post. My Proceed (Levinson designed) HPA2 powers a pair of Aerial Acoustics Model 8b’s. Same amp, same speaker manufacturer as n80. I upgraded my pre-amp to an Ayre Acoustics K-5e, but did not hear a benefit to upgrading to an Ayre amp at that time. I suspect there may be “better” amps out there, but component matching is part of the reason people keep older equipment. When you are happy with the sound of your gear, you are less likely to seek an upgrade. I’ve listened to a lot of supposedly better newer speakers by firms like Wilson, B&W, Magico and others, but just as I’ve kept my amp (had it repaired at reasonable cost twice), I’ve also kept my speakers. |
amplifiers have definitely "aged" better than just about any other audio component. I still have a Bryston 4B-ST and a Krell KAV-250a that both sound pretty good. Neither were particularly high-end in their day, but compared to modern amps at their original price point, they hold their own pretty well. |
Pioneer SPEC-4 I purchased in the early 80’s. Last year, I gave it and my beloved DCM TimeWindow 3 speakers, and some other gear to my son.
McIntosh MC2600 I purchased in the late 90’s. Been sitting unused for about 2 years. Probably time to sell it and the rest of my Mc components. |
Any older krell. I love my first gen ksa-100. Had the electrolytics replaced and it’s good for another 30yrs.. 80lbs, dual mono, pure class A. There are very few amps I’d upgrade to and those will cost a small fortune. |
@jasonbourne52
I also have a Perreaux 2150B, love it. It was the only amp I have owned that my AR9s wouldn't eat. Plus as a dual burner stove, I can make an egg sandwich while listening to Triumvirat at the same time. |
I`m still enjoying my Adcom 5802 , 20 years and counting. |
Are the Hafler 500’s considered kick ass? I know I loved mine ... |
Maybe not 'vintage' but I still like the way my Madrigal Proceed HPA2 drives my similar era Aerial Acoustic 7B towers. They need a lot of horsepower and the Proceed seems to deliver.
But my breadth of experience is....narrow.
Regardless, I feel no impulse or need to upgrade. Even if I could afford to.
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Several amps come to mind when I think of old amps that still kick butt. ARC D76 with all the final mods. VERY NICE. ARC D79 with all the final mods. Even better with very good dynamics. These are classic tube designs with a lot of attention paid to details. They needed regular adjustment to get optimal performance. The D76 was a great companion to many of the early large speaker systems from Altec, JBL and Bozak. The D79 was just a great all round amp. Anything could drive these amps, but the ARC SP-6B seemed the best choice of the day.
ARC D110 (solid state). Excellent in its day and punchy. A great companion amp for the larger Fulton systems and speakers with wide impedance swings in the LF..
And just to add to the mix, a McIntosh 275. Never really my fav, but a lot of people swore by it. |
The parasound hca 3500 i have owned it for twenty five years and have never heard or found a better overall amplifier for all speakers. My favorite tube amp is the sonic frontiers for the same reason of i have never found a better one to drive tube friendly speaker and i have owned that one for twenty five years. And for integrated amplifiers my accuphase is definitely the best i have ever had by a long shot.
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Bedini, Counterpoint, Harmon Kardon, Lafayette KT-550.
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My NIKKO Alpha 440 is hard to part with. I’m looking for someone who appreciates older ss gear and has the patience to recap it, and extend its life another 40 years. It has performed admirably since I got it in 1980. |
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J Peter Moncrieff?
That guy?
+1 for Ralph and feedback |
I've been playing with some vintage Sansui professional series ( BA 2000, CA 2000) pre-power for a year or so as a hobby, and i have to say after a re-cap,etc they are surprisingly nice sounding. Better then the Schiit Aegir in bass, midrange detail and decay only place the new stuff is maybe better is high end extension but that's debatable. so I'd say if you find a quality item form the vintage period it potentially can be stellar if updated-recapped as necessary etc. The key to most vintage stuff I've come across is the fact its aging and if not addressed they are most likely not close to original spec as parts drift with age. once in spec much of the stuff can be quite good. specially the tube gear if it had good transformers to start with. of course your mileage may very and its obviously dependent on what vintage item your looking at, as like today not all gear is worth looking at. |
I'm still running a Creek 4140 integrated in my system. I thought it would be easy to get something that sounds better given that it only cost $550 in 1989, but that has not been the case. I think the reason it sounds good from the perspective of timing and ability to convey tonal color is its simple circuit design. I've been lucky not to need a lot of power and I've found that more powerful amplifiers often sound off in timing and veiled to me. Recent amplifiers I've listened to in my system are: - PS Audio Stellar Strata integrated (class D): SQ feels artificial. Timing sounds off.
- Creek Evo 50: Sounds slow. Timing is off.
- Pathos Classic One: sound quality as well as the quality of the sound seems very close to the Creek. It's a bit smoother, but this difference was rendered moot by getting a new, smoother sounding DAC
There have been some amps that have sounded good to me. I think the common factor for most of what sounds good to me is simple circuit design. I think this simplicity helps in maintaining correct timing in music as well as ability to sound transparent and convey tonal color. - The Sugden A21SE sounded quite good indeed. With its Class A design, I think it also has a simple circuit design.
- I've also got high hopes for a Belles Aria Integrated to sound better than my Creek. I was going to get one to try out, but a friend beat me to it. So I get to try it out in my system for free! The Belles also has a similar design philosophy of simplicity that seems to work well for my listening preferences.
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A lot of those old amps had (now obsolete) low noise high bandwidth Toshiba and Motorola transistors which are not easily matched with today's offering. The unavailability of those parts is the main reason why amp manufacturers refuse to work on thirty year old equipment. So an argument can be made that some of the old stuff were better than today's, but not as a general statement. |
What @atmasphere said, +1. I would add: there have also been major improvements in the materials and manufacturing of rectifiers, resistors and capacitors, since the late Eighties. |
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This certainly has not been my experience. Starting in about 1980 when I took out my first loan to buy the then new revolutionary Pass designed Threshold 500. Then 20 years later after auditioning many amps and bought a Pass x350, which in every respect bested the Threshold (jaw droppingly so), and the switching over to an Audio Research Reference 160s. In each case the previous generation definitely could not kick butt in comparison to the new one... each generation has had much higher current... the butt kicking part). There would never be going back and a bit of nostalgia. Each generation has absolutely trounced the previous. Also, I think accounting for the time value of money, the investment I made in each amp was probably roughly the same.
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If the is a place you could feel an amp held up over time would be in a tube amp, where there was a certain sweetness (not accuracy) that was particularly appealing. Or if you are not actually appreciating better more accurate performance. Over the last fifty years solid state more closely approached the positive attributes of tube gear and tube gear more closely approached the position attributes of solid state gear, converging on best possible sound... as refinements in material science and component construction and selection will continue. I suppose the state of the art will level out at some point, but it sure has not yet.
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I guess it is great that some people feel this way. This is how I got the same price in trade in as I paid for my Pass x350 16 years earlier. I got a ridiculous amount of money back for my Threshold as well, on a sound / dollar basis. |
