@gemoody, You're probably not going to like what I tell you. Most people find that speakers 'wake up' or 'come alive' when you crank up the volume because fine detail is obscured or missing at low SPL.
If I'm not mistaken only @asctim has mentioned room acoustics. Forget EQ it can't solve your problem. Sort out your acoustics and introduce at least two subs which will allow, when properly set up, room filling sound with all micro detail intact and bass that will amaze with its tight informative performance.
Note: I mentioned properly set up. To achieve this get yourself a microphone and download the free REW from the net. The mic. will set you back about the cost of a decent meal. Too much to go into here but it's the only way to elevate what you have. I do not think you need new anything because your room will not have changed therefore neither will your sound. Sorry to inform that new speakers will just supply a slightly different perspective on you existing issues.
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I do most of my listening at low volume levels in a nearfield setting (>12 hrs/day), so I have experience with this. A couple observations:
- It's true that some speakers sing better at low volume than others. I've had a run of sealed/acoustic suspension speakers that do this very well. They were all 2-ways of varying size: NHT M-00s & matching sub (powered); ATC SCM12 Pros (passive); and vintage KEF 103.2s (passive). Currently I'm using a front-ported design that also sounds quite good at low volumes, the Harbeth 30.1s. But I've also had speakers here (all ported, whether passive or active) that sounded terrible until cranked.
- Same for amps. I'm on my 2nd class D amp (Bel Canto 600M monoblocks). The first was the Wyred 4 Sound ST-500 stereo amp. Very different designs with a few sonic differences, but both sound great at low volumes
- And a recent discovery, more or less by accident: I have a TVC (transformer volume controller/preamp), and when I use it as a trad preamp with the volume pot set very low, the sound coming out of the speakers is even more expressive and dynamic than I'm used to. I'd read about this, but wasn't prepared for how true it is. At higher volumes the sound is not anything special, but at low volumes, it's definitely special
The biggest factor is luck. Really. I just got lucky to land on gear that sounds great at low volume.
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I have Harbeth 40.3 XDs, a pair of Rythmik E15HP2 subs and an Accuphase E-800. The sound is wonderfully lush, soothing full and detailed at low levels. I think the Harbeths are 85 db (not super efficient) but easy to drive with an impedance range of 6-8 ohm. I had a pair of Harbeth SHL5 Plus as well and they also sounded full, lush and detailed in the 70 db range. I had larger more efficient Focal Scala Utopia EVOs and they were not as enjoyable at low levels.
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I'm now an apartment dweller and low level listener. Using Omega Speaker Systems Super 3i Monitor on stands behind my desk, REL T/5x subwoofer and a DIY SET triode tube amp. Very satisfied with this.
I stream from a Mac and use Apple Music's equalizer to boost the highs since I have some hearing loss.
I've found this a very satisfying and not too expensive combination.
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@deep_333 always helpful
He seems to take great pride in consistently providing those helpful posts, @jastralfu .
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@mswale Thanks for the compliment on the gear. To be clear, I do have the opportunity to turn it up, and it does sound much better!
Thanks to all who have commented and given their time and expertise. Much appreciated.
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You have some great gear, it's a shame that it doesn't get to stretch its legs.
Besides speaker placement, and treating the room for near field. Think some higher efficiency speakers would really help.
No near filed, but my stereo is turned on 15min after I wake up in the morning. My house is still mostly asleep. I listen to it around 40-45db for a few hours. While it does lack some low end punch, it still sounds wonderful.
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Schiit Loki Mini @ $149 will do the trick nicely...don't spend your money on new speakers...try this first. It works!
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One thing I’ve been taught is that unless a room is very highly damped and/or the speakers are highly directional and very close to the listener, most of the sound power that reaches the listener’s ears is from room reflections. So I think that a speaker that has pinched dispersion in the midrange with a widening response up higher, and maybe a rear firing tweeter to boot might be great for low volume listening. Also, controlling early reflections so they don’t reach the ears too soon will help, as I recently re-discovered for myself. Imaging tends to improve with volume because more low level details are audible. Nevertheless, the less confusion there is in the first 10 ms of signal that reaches the ears, the better we can hear imaging and subtle transient details even at low listening levels. Also it’s super important to especially get after the early reflections that occur across the room, which cause sound from the left or right speaker to cross our heads from the wrong side. Those early reflections should be deflected away from you rather than fully absorbed, especially I’d think for low level listening where you want to keep as much ambience in the room as possible because the ambient tail is going to fall below your threshold of hearing sooner. So for a low level listening room I’d focus more on deflecting early reflections away from your listening position and back toward the speaker that made the sound rather than absorbing them. Later reflections coming laterally from the correct side of the room can be extremely pleasing.
One of the best speakers I ever made for sounding good at low level got that characteristic when I pushed the woofer crossover up to 3500 Hz, where it crossed over to a 19mm tweeter on a minimal baffle. Look at where the equal loudness contour is at 3500 Hz!
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How low are low levels? I listen somewhat near field at around 50-60 db and get very good results from my Fritz Rev 7s. Not sure how loudly you listen but 50-60 is about the level of a normal conversation. I have a 5 band equalizer on my integrated that works very well for this type of listening environment. I still get very good soundstage and imaging. They do open up more with more power but they are very satisfying late night at 50-60db.
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New speakers see here
Mike
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Try your old Kenwood amp first (not kidding).
Proper EQ will work.
DeKay
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EQ will render a more cost-effective solution for you. The reason is that even a V-shaped SPL speaker will, in most cases I’ve seen, provide a boost of around 5 dB in the mid-bass and upper registers. However, to achieve the equal loudness contour (ELC), you typically need a 9-10 dB boost in the bass region for an average listening level of 45-55 dB, as I have at night.
Additionally, I believe digital EQ is more effective than its analog counterpart.
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@gemoody
Woofer: 6.5″ / 16.51 cm, 3″ / 7.62 cm voice coil. I assume standmounts have the same woofer.
Have been told my speakers, Totem Forest Signature, "need power to sing".
Agreed. And I agree that you would need an amp that has full output at the first watt. But that will not fix your problem.
I agree and disagree on EQ / Fletcher Munson. Yes, you can brute force correct for low volumes with eq. But "FR compensation" and "Come to life" are two different things.
Yes, Aiwa stuff was great. Giant Sony had an interesting way to deal with their competition. They bought Aiwa and then "discontinued" the company.
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EQ will work ... good luck!
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By the way, 23’ x 23’ x 8’, square rooms can be problematic, even more reason to use measurements to find advantageous, avoid problematic positioning and toe-in.
I would lower the speakers, tilt them back, aim tweeter up at seated ear height, altering the INITIAL reflections off both the floor and ceiling.
Amazing Bytes CD with Test Tones Info here
only finding two expensive listings on Discogs at the moment. Write me a message, I could help you find an inexpensive copy.
I make an enlarged copy of page 4, use the 29 1/3 octave test tones with the SPL Mic on a tripod at ear level listening position. This combined with the Schiit EQ, use one of the presets for ’measured with mic’ then finally, you use your ears and set another of the presets for personal preference.
If there is a big difference between what the mic hears and you hear, time for a hearing test.
I like this chart
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op you are barking up the wrong tree
your amplifier has more then enough power
changing to greater efficiency loudspeakers wont fix it nor will eq
low levet listening involves the flecher munson curve which dictates the ear is less adept at hearing low bass at lower levels you might think adding a sub would fix tha it wont as a good woofer just adds pressure to the leading and trailing notes of the totems the man sound is just coming from the totems
and an eq is too likely to muck up your tonal balance without offering enough finessee to fix the issue
having heard the totem forests for years you need a warmer fuller sounding loudspeaker with greater mid-bass response
please lk at a pair of Legacy signatures or a pair of Harbeths to completely give you what you are craving.
Dave and Troy
Audio intellect NJ
legacy dealer
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@OP I don't think the placement per se is the cause of the issue you are experiencing. But it does seriously compromise soundstaging. Unfortunately, it also means that the Devore O series won't work as their front baffles are too wide for the available space. The Gibbon series might. I'm presuming that the Forest Signatures, which are floorstanding, have replaced the stand mounts shown in your picture. That said, the Forests are essentially stand mount speakers with a cavity for mass loading built into the speaker. I think, in essence, the situation is that you have a small volume speaker that is slightly insensitive so you have a speaker with limited bass extension which is exacerbated by the relative reduction in perceived bass at low listening levels. Your use of the loudness control on the amp is an attempt to compensate for that, as will be the use of the Schiit. That is something of a sticking plaster rather than a full solution. I do think that you would get better results with a pair of more efficient speakers that also have a driver / cabinet combination that will allow them to move more air at low listening levels.
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I think you should have waited for your Loki Max before posting this. I've used a couple of Lokis for years (early adopter...now one is in my stereo video system and another is part of my main rig's Vali 3 headphone stack) and bought a Loki Max last year for my main system...a brilliantly designed EQ and the remote is a game changer. Fletcher/Munson can pound sand!
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I use a Loki Max for this very purpose and it works great for me. I live in a tiny NYC apartment and using it to bump the low and the high end when I want to listen late at night without bothering my wall neighbors works well. It’s just what my Tannoy Stirlings needed for that situation.
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Good input. Lots to consider. Volume, Amp, speakers, EQ, room, tubes, voice coil diameter, F-M Curve …
I will try the EQ first. I have thought about higher sensitivity speakers, always wondered about Fyne F700/701. A tube amp has been in the back of my mind, but there is much, for me, to love about the Accuphase vibe, and it is still new-ish.
@yoyoyaya yes, very close together, an unfortunate room limitation. Contributes to issue?
@cdc cannot find spec info for voice coil diameter, and more clues?
@moonwatcher thanks for the Frampton reference
@elliottbnewcombjr good info on the Loki bands, thx.
@deep_333 your right, time to sell everything.👎
Will do some research into the Fletcher-Munson Curve. Any recommended resources.
appreciate the Forum and it inhabitants.
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+EQ - Fletcher Munson curve
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What is the voice coil diameter on the Totem drivers? You want 26mm. 38mm like Scan speak and Dynadio take tons of power to get going and never sound good at low volumes.
I do not know about sensitivity playing a part. I had some 88dB sensitivity and the bass did not kick in until 85dB. I prefer no crossover for low volume.
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@OP. I have no experience of the Totems but it is certainly the case that certain speakers do not sound right at low volume levels and sensitivity measurements are not always a perfect guide to that. You could try something like a pair of DeVore O series - that will tell you if there is potential for a speaker replacement.
I'm curious, given the room dimensions and the picture with the LPs, it looks like the speakers are about four feet apart. Are you really that compromised regarding placement?
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The issues are multi-faceted. Some speakers really do need to be played at a certain level before they "come alive" like Frampton. EQ can help your perception of certain frequencies, but if your speakers "don't sing" at lower levels with a decent dynamic range, then they will simply not sound their best. EQ is the first place to start by boosting lows and highs, but at the end of the day, you might have better luck with getting some more "lively" speakers that offer a dynamic range even at lower volumes.
In my bedroom I have some ancient 92 dB efficient ADS L520 speakers and play them at roughly 50 dB before going to sleep. I have EQed them using a streamer app running Tidal. To me they sound great, even at that low of a volume.
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At 80 dB, a fairly loud average level your ears are down about 10dB at 30 Hz. It's significantly worse at lower levels. It's not the equipment. What you hear is what happens at low loudness levels. You need to equalize to get the affects you want at low levels or listen at higher levels. By the way ears are essentially level at 100 dB, way too loud as an average level for ear health.
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Just sell everything to someone more deserving of your gear. You didn’t need all this gear for it to squeal away at 45db.
Get a pair of in-ear earphones, turn the volume way down to 40 dB or whatever.... and let it squeal softly.
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I listen nearfield at low levels. It isn't your speakers as much as your electronics. Most amps suck at low power levels. tube amps is the best solution but there are others. of course with tube amps you may need more sensitive speakers.
But I've tried driving sensitive speakers with high power amps. if you take a 300 watt power amp and turn it down to 0.1 watt, it will suck. lets just say I've never heard one that doesn't.
Jerry
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Nice big room, nice stuff,
a few comments:
1. your accuphase loudness compensation is nothing like fletcher munson curves, and is a simple bass boost on/off +6db at 100hz, not progressive, not volume related, thus your comment 'it helps some' makes perfect sense. I would not use it when the Schitt gets there,
2. schitt is different than any equalizer I ever messed with, it has 6 bands, and treats their +/- range differently, thus play with them individually to get a feel for what each band can do, pretty simple as it has remote bypass.
Bands: 20Hz, 120Hz, 400Hz, 2kHz, 6kHz, 16kHz
Adjustment: +/-12dB at 20Hz and 16kHz, +/-9dB at 120Hz and 6kHz, +/-6dB at 400 and 2kHz
It is a 'set and forget' except that it has 3 factory presets and let's you save anything you want in place of those 3.
"9 Preset/Favorite Press briefly to select from one of three EQ presets. Or, press and hold for 5 seconds to define a new favorite on the currently selected preset."
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I would 1st ascertain what I was getting with my system flat, using a SPL Mic and a CD with test tones
SPL, make sure it has a bottom threaded hole for tripod use
http://Amazing Bytes CD has 29 1/3 octave test tones
you may find a slightly preferable speaker positioning and or toe-in prior to using the EQ.
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I like the automatic and progressive bass boost that I get at only low volume listening from my Chase Remote Line Controller RLC-1
It does not adjust the highs like Fletcher Munson, but it does have basic tone controls which I do not use.
I wish the Schiit had remote balance like the Chase does.
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Just my two cents, but it seems that EQ won't fix your problem. EQ would be more for tweaking the sound of a system that is close to your ideal, whereas higher sensitivity speakers should function better at lower dB levels. I have 85dB speakers (ATC SCM19) that listen to near field (6 feet) and low level listening isn't their strength. My amp outputs 220 wpc.
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